Hi,<P>I am new to this forum and need advice from others who have been in a similar situation. Please respond if you have been the one who left or the one who is trying to save the marriage.<P>This is my situation:<P>My wife and I are in our late 20's with 2 infant children. I'm currently finishing my medical training and only pull in a small income from a training stipend. My wife works full-time to help support the family. <P>We didn't see each other much, and there were a lot of stressors in both of our lives. We often worked opposite schedules so that we could save on daycare. Unfortunately, my wife didn't have many friends or any family because she moved 3000 miles to be with me. She has always felt isolated and alone here, and she felt extremely isolated and desperate when our relationship was non-existent. <P>Our marriage turned terribly sour within the last year. We couldn't discuss issues and we argued about the house-hold duties, where I will complete my medical training, money, me not spending enough time with the family, etc... About two months ago, my wife and I had an arguement over the business I started to earn money part-time and the time that I didn't have for the family. We argued for quite a while about past-issues and finally we both resorted to name-calling. The fight ended when I left the house very angry and yelling profanity. I said, "I wished I was dead", but now she insists that I said, "I wished she was dead." Her family and friends back in her home state believe that she was truly in physical danger because she claiimed I wanted her dead. I have neglected her emotional needs but never, ever physically threaten her in the 10 years I've known her. <P>When I came home from my shift that evening, my wife wanted us to go to marriage counseling. I resisted because I wanted to sit down and discuss our problems in a calm manner. We talked for about two days, but she had already planned to leave. She left 3 days later with the kids and moved in with her mother in a state that is 3000 miles away.<P>After one week, she filed a petition for separation and a petition for emergency custody because she was fearful for her life. She tried to call our friends and have them document my "verbal abuse". No one agreed with her. After a month of much painful legal paperwork on both sides and escalating legal fees, my wife and I started talking again. We've agreed to go to marriage counseling, but she refuses to return to the state where I live. This makes it very difficult for me because I want to see my children who I have cared for since their birth. <P>I love my wife and my two children. I want us to be a family again. I am trying hard to learn from the information gleaned here, from books, and during counseling. <P>I feel so discourage because there are days that she seems to want to try. But there are many days where she feels like it's hopeless, and she doesn't want to talk to me about marriage. She only wants to talk about custody of the children, which is a very complicated issue.<P>My questions are: <P>Is it possible for a person/couple to save a marriage being 3000 miles away? <P>Is it normal for my spouse to sway back-n-forth between engaging the idea of working on the marriage and wanting a definite divorce?<P>How much should I try before giving up? When do I know to give up?<P>It's difficult for me to trust her because she has become very cold and changing her mind about marriage and custody arrangements. And it also doesn't help when all her friends and family are encouraging her to dump me because she needs to be safe.<P>I thank those in advance who have taken the time to read about my problems and have given me advice or their opinion.<P>Best regards,<P>Andrew<p>[This message has been edited by Guy-next-door (edited June 09, 2000).]

Welcome <B>Andrew</B>...<P>I have a post of general welcome I wish to share with you... <P>It has a lot of quick links to many of the <B>most</B> important MB sites...<BR>Click here ==> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000002.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome for All New Builders(Newbies)</A><BR>It is geared toward situation of infidelity...but can help most marriages in difficulty.<P><B>About your post</B>...<P>wow...<P>Right off the bat... you should check with an attorney in your state if her taking the children and moving out of state is legal?!<P>It is possible to work on your marriage...<BR>...but when the distance gets that great (3000 miles!) it would take cooperation on both parties... and it doesn't sound like you have it from your W.<P>One option would be to start in on the MB provided <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7200_phone.html" TARGET=_blank>telephone counseling sessions</A> (~$85US a pop... but well worth it) with <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7010_about.html" TARGET=_blank>Steven W. Harley</A> or Jennifer Harley. Check out the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counseling Center</A>... and for some specifics... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7015_fee.html" TARGET=_blank>Fees for Counseling Services</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7020_sched.html" TARGET=_blank>Scheduling an Appointment</A>! If you're talking about counseling together... your W would have to want to learn about some of the MB concepts.<P>"Is it normal for my spouse to sway back-n-forth between engaging the idea of working on the marriage and wanting a definite divorce?"...<BR>...absolutely!<BR>...this particular forum stresses situations where there has been some form of infidelity. Is that the case with your W as well?<P>"How much should I try before giving up?"...<BR>...that completely up to you!<P>"When do I know to give up?"...<BR>...also up to you!<P>The MB principles say folllow the steps of a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> first (this a bit harder when you are separated)... and then in time (if necessary) do a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>!<P>Read all you can starting at my <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000002.html" TARGET=_blank>Welcome</A>...<P>Post and read and ask in this... or in another appropriate forum.<P> <P>Jim

<B>Hi Jim</B>,<P>Thank you for your welcome post. <P>In many ways I am thankful there is no infidelity in our marriage. It would make the pain, confusion, frustration, sense of betrayal much, much worse. I feel the pain of all the people here who have been betrayed. I cannot imagine dealing with the separation of my W, not seeing my children, AND knowing there is the OM in her life.<P><I><B>"Right off the bat... you should check with an attorney in your state if her taking the children and moving out of state is legal?!"</I></B><P>My lawyers are working on it, but this is a tough situation. The W can do anything with the kids because she is their mother. In regards to the decision of custody, however, the State where they lived should be the one with jurisdiction to determine custody matters. What she did was essentially "forum shop" by moving to a different state and filing for custody. By running to a different state, she's really cut off many routes of reconciliation and have placed our children in an unfavorable position. She's also screwed me in regards to being able to see my children.<P>This whole separation with my W & children has been difficult because I feel so pressured to get her back so that the children can be with both parents. I haven't seen my kids for two months! But as I place more pressure on her, I know that it's destroying her will & desire to come back. I want to give her time to think and "heal", but the children really need time with both parents. It's frustrating when I talk to her because she said I had 3 days (the 3 days before she left the marriage) to decide if I want marriage counseling... that was my <B>ONLY</B> chance. My wanting it now is not important. I know I can change a lot of bad habits that the MB website has outlined. I know I can be a better partner because my W and family are important to me. <P>It's also frustrating when I talk to her family and to my W because all they focus on are the "angry outbursts". Why can't they see that numerous other factors may have been contributory to my W's emotional depletion: being young parents with 2 children, my W's clinical depression, being isolated from her family/friends due to geographical distance, having financial constraints, working opposite schedules, and not knowing where we'll live because medicine dictates where I live. It appears everyone is pointing the finger at me and saying, "See... you're the only reason why she left. She wasn't safe and that's why she left!" I already feel enough pain associated with losing my children and W; I don't need to carry all this blame on my shoulders too.<P>I'm flying out next weekend to determine a custody arrangement we can both live with during this time of separation. I had asked if she would go to church with the children and me on Father's day. She originally stated yes, but now tells me the hospital scheduled her to work next Sunday! Why can't she try to switch with a co-worker?!? This is besides the point anyhow. <P>I think once the custody matters are behind us, we may be able to focus on the marriage (I hope). But I'm slowly losing hope for me and my W. Particularly now when she won't talk to me on the phone or answer my e-mails. It seems she opens up to me so that she gains leverage or my support for the custody arrangement she wants. Or she hopes that I will say something incriminating to use against me in the custody litigation, such as "I see how you can feel that you're not emotionally safe, therefore I will promise you to stop my angry outbursts & disrespectful judgements (2 of the 3 Love Busters)". I'm sure she'll take that statement and turn it against me without considering her own verbal attacks and disrespectful judgements towards me! I feel like I'm opening up and trying to understand my bad habits, but she's jotting it all down to use against me... When I do open up, she then closes back down and refuses to talk. I don't trust her mother, and I don't trust her. <P>I can't concentrate on much else these days, and this is basically all I think about. I feel like it's up to me to move where she is in order for our children to be with both parents. <P><I><B>"One option would be to start in on the MB provided telephone counseling sessions"</B></I><P>I've already had my first counseling session with Dr. Jennifer Harley. She is great. I also setup my phone for 3-way conference calling. I hope my W will be receptive to the concepts presented by MB and is truly willing to work on our marriage. I've also purchased two sets of books, "The Four Gifts of Love" & "His needs, Her needs". I'm sending her a set and hope she reads them, and I want her to know that the basic principles in the books are what I am working on in regards to building good habits. <P>I hope that my efforts will payoff one way or another. If my marriage is completely over, at least I can be a better person to deal with her in regards to our children when separated/divorced. <P>I've rambled enough. <P>I do appreciate your kind words Jim and your time responding to my post. I have read most of the articles on the MB website, and I agree with the many principles here. <P>Have a nice weekend,<BR>Andrew<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Guy-next-door (edited June 10, 2000).]

Andrew...<P>Doing as much as Plan A as you can...<BR>...is going to help!<P>...but remember... not all marriage can be reconciled. (Mine too will end on or about August 7th.)<P>When you're frustrated... take the time to learn how you can be a better H! We can always improve ourselves.<P>About your kids...<BR>...in my situation... when my W was threatening to do what your W did (take them from me to another state)... and it looked like that is what was going to happen...<BR>...I <B>was</B> ready to move to where my W was just to be near my kids!<BR>...as it turned out... my W just left me with the kids (her affair was/is very very adictive)<BR>...whether you make that decision to go... or not...<BR>...love your children!<BR>...she is hurting them because she is letting them grow up without their own father! <P>My prayers are with you... <P>Keep posting!<P> <P>Jim

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guy-next-door:<BR><B>Is it possible for a person/couple to save a marriage being 3000 miles away? <P>Is it normal for my spouse to sway back-n-forth between engaging the idea of working on the marriage and wanting a definite divorce?<P>How much should I try before giving up? When do I know to give up?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If both people are willing and there is love, anything is possible. Don't give up. <P>I think it is very normal for people to sway back and forth. We get caught up in the good things and feel hope. We get fixated on the bad things and feel it can never change. Just look around. How many times have all of us said, "that's it! It's over!" only to try again?<P>I've asked myself the last question. I am not sure when you've tried enough. I suppose when you are at peace with yourself that you've done all you could.

Thanks for the words of encouragement <B>Popeye.</B> It helps me to remain sane through this ordeal. <P><I><B>If both people are willing and there is love, anything is possible. Don't give up.</I></B><P>I want to believe this so badly, but I'm unsure if my W still loves me. It's very difficult as most people here can understand. I only have one option at the moment, and that's to wait and let her decide what she wants to do. I will not give up on a marriage so easily, and I must wait as long as it's necessary. <P><B>Jim</B> I do love my children and WILL move where they are. I am applying for residency programs this Winter and the State my kids will be in, will be my top choice. I just hope I match where my children are... it's so difficult because the match process is mostly out of my control.<P>Thanks for your posts! This helps me so much to express my feelings and frustrations, as well as receiving advice, sharing stories, and feeling I'm not alone in regards to divorce & child custody issues. I feel less angry, frustrated, hurt, alone, and helpless when I am able to share my ideas.<P>Best regards,<BR>Andrew

Andrew,<P>I just wanted to say that you are doing great!.... My prayers are w/you and your family.<P>I don't have much to say in the way of advice,but you are here and it <B>will</B> help! <P>Keep reading and posting.......if you have Q,there are plenty of people here that are <B>soooo wonderful!</B> They all have been a tremendous support for me!.....it has kept me sane.<P>Hang in there!<P>Gina <P><BR><P>------------------<BR>"If we deny love that is given to us,if we refuse to give love because we fear pain or loss,then our lives will be empty,our loss greater!"-----Anonymous----

I think I know why my W has been avoiding me this past week. <P>I just received in the mail this afternoon an affidavit from one of her friends stating how much distress my W was in when my W left and that my W was really scared for her life. My W's friend also stated that she heard I yelled profanity at my W in front of our son.<P>I have been trying to work out a custody arrangement with her to avoid going to court. I know that if we go to court, it might be the end to any possible reconciliation. <P>God, I hate this. I love my W and want to work things out for us and for the children. She won't talk to me on the phone anymore and haven't answered any of my emails. I love my wife, but I don't want to lose contact with my kids either! <P>Do I fight in court? If I fight, will I lose all chances with regaining my W's trust and love? If I don't fight, I may not be able to see my children often because they will live 3000 miles away! <P>Is it even realistic for me to think that I can win my W's love considering all the legal bull**** that we've instigated?<P>I cannot stop trying... <P>Life would be so much easier if I would simply stop loving my W. <P>Andrew

Andrew...<P>You... like many of us are caught between a rock and a hard place.<P>Fight for the kids... and lose your W<BR>Fight for your W... and risk a really chance to have a relationship with your children.<P>You have a very hard decision to make...<P>For me it was made more so by my W...<BR>...my W was threatening to take the kids and have her OM bring them up as his...<BR>...<B>totally unaccpetable</B>.<P>3 more lives in the balance... due to her addiction.<P>--------------------------------<P>Your's is less clear...<BR>...no infidelity<BR>...so what are you fighting? I don't know...<P>But you need to make that decision...<P>And I pray you think it through carefully.<P>Jim<P>

Jim,<P>Thanks for your replies to my original post. It's really nice to be able to discuss this issue with someone who can relate, particularly in regards to the issue about custody.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NSR:<BR><B><BR>Fight for the kids... and lose your W<BR>Fight for your W... and risk a really chance to have a relationship with your children.<P>You have a very hard decision to make...<P>For me it was made more so by my W...<BR>...my W was threatening to take the kids and have her OM bring them up as his...<BR>...totally unaccpetable</B>.<P>3 more lives in the balance... due to her addiction.<P>Your's is less clear...<BR> ...no infidelity<BR> ...so what are you fighting? I don't know...<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your situation is absolutely unbearable. I am sorry you had to face the same difficult decision but with the OM in consideration. It's difficult when you have to fight someone with an addiction or emotional imbalance.<P>In my situation, I strongly believe it's the latter. My wife has been depressed, perhaps due to her clinical depression, unhappy marriage, being in a State where she has few family/friends, and being influenced by her Mom. Who knows... but she wants out of our marriage so badly that she is pointing the finger at me and blaming me for:<P>"Verbal and emotional <B>abuse</B> to the point of where she and the children were <I>in danger for their lives</I>."<P>Which was based on an arguement where we both yelled profanity at each other, I threw keys on the ground, and I said "sometimes I wish I was dead". She takes the last comment and tells everyone that "he wants me dead" and I'm in danger for my life. She also claims I've chipped away at her self-esteem slowly over the years due to my criticism.<P>I've been miserable in the marriage too, but didn't understand what was going on. We both were doing the very things the MB website specifies not to do: angry outbursts, disrespectful judgement, selfish demands, not spending the time to work on the marriage, and having children didn't help our situation either... etc... <P>Although I'm willing to go to counseling to address her concerns and willing to develop the good habits that build love, she is worried that I can't change and that things have gotten so "badly" that she doesn't feel "safe" and she feels "isolated" from her friends/family living in my State; thus, she refuses to return. Instead of trying to work things out, even at a distance, she files for legal separation in her new state of residence and hopes to have the courts award her primary custody so that I can't take the children back to where I live.<P>So I'm basically fighting someone who I think is emotionally unstable. It's very frustrating because every time we talk about our marriage, she uses the words co-dependency, verbal abuse, victim, abuse-cycle, etc... Her family truly believes she was in danger; therefore, they're protecting her with a vengeance.<P>My dilemma is driving me nuts! If I give her time to think and decide if she wants a marriage, she'll have enough time to establish residency status for the children in 4 months. At that time, her state assumes legal jurisdiction, and I'll be screwed because her state would never uproot the kids. I have to act quickly to have my state assume the jurisdiction and drag her back for a custody battle - in which I will probably lose all hope of saving our marriage, but have a chance of preserving my life with my children. <P>Her offer of custody right now is pathetic:<BR>She raises the kids and I have limited visitation. Blah... I've been an equal caretaker of our children and want the opportunity to be more involved than a "visiting" family member. Even if I move to where she is, the most I will get according to her is limited visitation. She won't even agree to live within 30 miles of the medical center so that I can have easy access to the children (right now she lives within 17 miles). She doesn't want to be "controlled" anymore because if she remarries, then she wants to move with her new hubby. She doesn't want to be tied to me anymore. <P>I cannot think about anything else right now. I replay the options over and over in my head. I can't sleep at night. I can't stop thinking about it. I can't stop feeling angry, frustrated, hurt, and pissed off.<P>Because she won't talk about our future or about anything right now, I have no choice but go to court next week in her state to discuss issues of jurisdiction. Perhaps God will be kind and give me a miracle before next week.<P>Jim, I am glad you were able to keep your kids. At least you didn't lose everything due to your W's infidelity, betrayal, and addiction. I wish you luck with your children and your road to healing. I'm just starting the emotional journey you've traversed... and I know there are going to be many more painful days ahead of me. Perhaps posting and reading with people in this column will help me feel less alone and helpless.<P>Thanks for listening.<P>Andrew<P><p>[This message has been edited by Guy-next-door (edited June 10, 2000).]