In my ever complicated mess...4 real teens and one 47 year old who has acted out so much worse than any kid I ever met has been the hardest.<BR>H has effectively abdicated all parental responsibility...and the kids know this.<BR>Yes they love their dad (hate ow but have to toletrate her)<BR>See dad when he chooses etc. This is his weekend, took d last night but is going to Cuba, of all places tomorrow for a week with ow and older 2 sons (who are supposed to be working for H!!!!)So d, who has a huge project due, will spend fun time with dad (and not enough REAL tim) and then come home to WORK on her project for the rest of the weekend..this means as usual I am on call to supervise the group of 8 grade 8 kids etc etc.<BR>Son of 16 writing exams...papa nowhere near to take kid, pick him up etc.<P>The above is all normal for us now...but what is not is that the older 2 lived with me for a month after school let out and they came home (19 year old twins) I was not allowed to make parental decisions...such as one threatened to drink and drive so I took the keys to the car and siad no more...so out they both stormed to live with their father...one has spoken to me and we have dealt with theissue in a major way, but there is so much anger about EVERYTHING and their dad plays favourites with one kid over the other ..i.e. divide and CONTROL.<BR>The other son has not spoken to me since and quite frankly was so out of line (since Aug 1999) to me that I have finally stated enough.<BR>I will no longer protect either of them financially from their fathers lies..and this means when they go back to school in Sept...I will pay my share and they will have to get the rest from their dad instaed of me going through the courts to get reimbursement from him (he lied and as this is a grey area he can waffle for quite long in regards to paying me back for 1999-2000.<BR>Their father wants to pay for trips to Cuba etc where he benefits but not pay for their education and needs as opposed to wants...H does not get it and children will have to learn.<BR>Of course this is not what I wanted to do but know if I do not H will destroy the kids with the fantasy life he lives and makes it look inviting to them.<P>I no longer care about anything about his life...ow, high life...but I will not allow him to destroy the children's morals and values by shielding them and protecting them from the reality of what he has done...not to me but to them.

I can understand your frustration and would even agree with you since your children are older, but I wouldn't agree if they are still young.<P>My H has done horrendous things to my daughter by abdicating responsibility and making poor decisions. He talks to her as if he is her "friend" rather than a parental figure because it is what he thought he wanted his parents to be to him when he was young. He doesn't consider her immaturity or feelings when he talks to her.<P>He was supposed to stay with her and keep an eye out when I went away for a weekend. He left her alone in the house the entire time. She was out partying and had some guy in the house because "she didn't want to be alone."<P>I wanted him to tell her the reason for the break-up because I wanted him to take responsibility for it. I never dreamed he would be so graphic or tell her things beyond her need to know. He dumped on her! He hadn't told anyone and in his need to relieve his guilt, he told her everything, but in a way that made it look like it happened AFTER we were separated.<P>He told her he was going to take her out shopping to get her something new. He never did. He told her he was going to take her to a concert. He hasn't. He told her he was going to pay for her driving school and another summer program she is interested in. He hasn't.<P>This child thinks of him as her father and he has turned his back on her as surely as he has turned his back on me. Not just in financial terms, but as someone who has been there for over half her life! As someone who she looks up to and loves as a parent. <P>I wish that I could shield her from all of this. In fact, I have shielded her from as much as I can because I don't think it is good to destroy a child's faith in their parents. Yes, they may be the scum of the earth, but they need to feel they can be safe with their parents and have some universal truths like their parents will always love them and put them first. <P>It's incredibly sad when people turn their backs on the children they reared and helped to create. They will have to answer to that someday, but if there is any way I can preserve my child's faith in her parents, I am going to do that. Even if it means it's all a lie. Why? Kids tend to internalize everything and make it their fault. I don't want her carrying around his crap when she doesn't have to. Yes, they all grow up and will see the truth for what it is someday, but if I can delay that pain for a time when they are mature enough to handle it, I am happy. If I have to cover up for a swine to achieve that, so be it.<P>I did great at hiding things for months from my daughter, but she knows everything now. She is thinking she is lesbian now because she is so digusted with men. She didn't need this.

I disagree. Although it is not necessarily a good idea to volunteer a lot of specifics children may not want to hear, a parent should NEVER lie to their children. Aside from the fact that it is wrong to lie, what happens when the child realizes that neither parent can be trusted? Children are never old enough to "handle" that.

popeye:<BR>Thank you for your input. I can not protect the kids from their father's behaviour...they know enough and had to anyway when this whole mess unfolded. They were relieved in Jan1999 to know the cause of H's anger at them...when they found out what it was all about they all said" well now we know why dad was so angry etc ...it was not our fault etc etc" (naturally this they have forgotten)<P>Nellie:<BR>Thank you..<BR>I quite agree, one cannot LIE to the kids. Some things are best left unsaid (and I know I sometimes do say too much...but do not use the kids as confidants)If one parent lies so much, then they do not know what to believe and while the kids may not like what is said, I never knowningly lie to them.<BR>Kids need to lknow that they can trust thier parents...and if they cannot trust one about so much, then the other really has to be there fr them!!!

I would like to agree and disagree. I agree that I will not out and out lie for him.....but when he didn't call our youngest after having to go to the emergency room because she had pnuemonia....I "covered" for him.<P>Some things I can't lie about....ie...court dates.....dad not coming to pick them up....dad being abusive......but I can explain to them in a way that they don't see dad in the most dismal light possible. I will not cover for his abuse though. <P>I admit I have lied...I don't like it one bit...to be put in that position....but I am not about to discuss some of the things because they are only 8 and 10.<P>I think as a parent you have to do what you feel will cause the children minimal pain and hurt.<P>Our 10 year old does get mad if she finds out I lied...but the only reason she does know is because dad shares far too much information with them. But she has never been disappointed in me for trying to spare her the hurt. She is far wiser than many people give her credit for.<P>I have faith that our girls have been raised with morals and values, and that they know what their dad did was wrong....they saw and heard way too much from their dad. They still do. <P>Our girls trust me...even through all of this....their dad used to take them to friends houses and tell his friends their mom never cooked, cleaned, sewed,...just sat on her fat butt all day and spent his money. The girls were very offended...since they used to help me clean, cook and I even used to sit down with them and teach them how to sew. They don't trust their dad....they don't believe anything he says...but that is his fault.<P>Nancy

I'm not talking about lying about what is going on necessarily. That is something that will be known anyway. I am talking about "covering" so that their feelings aren't hurt. When the H does something insensitive, like not answering a call, I will tell her I forgot to pass along the message. I do what I can to spare her feelings about things that affect her. Yes, he does forget her, just like he has forgotten me, but I try to put it in the most forgiving and gentlest light possible so that the stress remains between me and the H.<P>Maturity goes a long way in helping kids process this. Every child is different as to what they are ready to mentally process. My daughter is not ready to have her security and view of the world challenged by this, so I am going to do what I can to make sure that she doesn't have to deal with it now.

I don't agree that lying for any reason, even to protect their feelings, is a good idea. Children need to know that their parents tell the truth. If they learn that it is ok for their parents to lie to protect their feelings, sooner or later they will lie to "protect" their parents' feelings or to perhaps to keep them from worrying. It is a slippery slope.<P>

There must be something in the air, it seems like a bunch of our x's are doing the same thing with the kids. The guilt must get to them that they feel they must do something to win the children over and that must mean say or do anything to the children, but with their fogged brains, they forget what they promised.<P>My d told me today that x is happy now and she never yells at the her and her brother, then she added as much. I said that because she's not with you as much. I told her the reason I get mad and yell is because the keep doing the same thing over and over after I have told them not to do it. Their mother doesn't have to put up with this. Plus the kids aren't with her more than a couple hours at a time.

I think one of the ssaddest things we can do is put our kids in the middle and try to get them to side with us. I was slightly guilty of that in the beginning, but finally I woke up and realized just what they would have to deal with later and quit. <BR>My x will never be the Dad I think he should be. He just won't. So I decided that I would not say anything about him to the kids, other than he loves them and that he has some growing up to do. They can figure out the rest. <BR>He seldom takes them when it is his weekend, only when it is convienient for him. But I have chosen not to make an issue of it. If he is around and wants them, he can have them, if they want to go. For me, it just has created less conflict and issues. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

I agree with no lies, I reinforce that Dad loves them, but mine are old enough to know if I were trying to cover up things. It is "H" responsibilty to maintain his relationship w/his children, not mine. I do not interfere with that but I won't cover up for him either. <P>He is all talk and no action, promises of lunches, and seeing new born puppies, etc and nothing has come to light. The children know and don't count on him for anything now except getting criticized when he does show up!<P>I think because I have remained honest with them and not interfered with their phone calls, even made efforts to get him to come and see them, they remain closer to me and even wish I would give up on him, so that I can be happy again. they want to see me laugh and smile again, me too!!

popeye,Nelie, RWD,sue, lila, 140:<BR>Thank you all for replying and adding sane opinions and advice.<P>I do not lie to my kids, but do not tell them everything, and let them know that not everything is for them to know (only when they ask me)but I never knowingly lie or cover up...it is not who I am. Kids also learn by example so....<P>Covering up is necessary for some children and not for others...it depends on the age as well. IMHO with teens, to cover up smells of collusion and this I cannot do either, I will rather the chips fall where they will.<BR>In any case all our children have to work out what the relationship is with us and with their other parent and by "covering up" you are not "separate" and are in fact not allowing the kids to figure it out for themselves (young children do need to be protected, but teens , usually not)<P>I have told the kids that their father loves them and that they need to have a relationship with him and taking the conversation this route when they are confused and at the same time I have told them that they can have a relationship good or bad with me, that is between the individual child and myself and they shouldhave whatever sort of relationship they can and want with their dad, BUT that neither relationship should intefere with the other and that I hoped that they could have a good relationship with both of us.<P>The problem is that H needs to be the winner in this parenting contest! What he has never understood is that there is no prize and this is not a contest but life and what is good for the kids. So he promises one or the other the sun, moon and stars and either loses out on a relationship with another kid by playing favourites in his attention and material rewards. This has started to backfire and all see me as the "wicked witch" of the west, I am consistent, there for them in bad times and good, and while I can provide as much or more materially as H I chose not to play this game with any one of the kids. At the same time I am not afraid of my children..if I say no and they chose to have nothing to do with me, then it was not much of a relationship anyway!<P>What makes me smile as I write this is that each child sees, mostly but not always, that I have made the correct parental decision regarding a sibling, but never with them!<BR>Go figure parenting adolescents!!!!<BR>And so it goes.......

I've read through all of your posts and wanted to say that I have a major bucket of respect for you folks with teenagers. I have two children 4yr old son and 6yr old daughter. While it's hard running around to school, daycare, work, b'day parties, etc., I don't have to deal with most of what you have to. <P>My 6 yr. old has been asking why her father and I divorced (it's been 1.5 years since the divorce was final). I've been pretty ambiguous in my responses. I told her that we didn't get along anymore. OK, so it's a lame excuse. I can't tell her the truth because she's not old enough to understand that her father had an affair with a co-worker (subordinate), they both were fired and now are working for the same company (different locations) and are expecting their first child. I've got my hands full trying to explain why her father and his girlfriend aren't getting married. <P>Did anyone else out there divorce when their kids were young? If so, what did you tell your kids and when? <P>I talked to my ex about our d's questions and he said he'll tell the kids the "whole story" when their old enough. We aren't getting along very well right now. He's a restaurant manager and his schedule stinks, so he doesn't see the kids that much. Also, since they are getting a bit older, they have a lot of plans with their friends. After the divorce, the kids and I moved about 15 miles from him and he's complained about it ever since. <P>Again, my hat is off to those of you who have teens!!!!

jan98,<P>I told our kids that I believe that their father is suffering from depression and is not his normal self. Although the younger ones have not been told that he was having an affair before he left, he introduced them to the OW and let them know he was sleeping in her bed not long after he left, so obviously they will figure it out when they are a little older. I wouldn't tell them that we don't get along - not only because in our case, it was not true, but in addition, that would effectively be telling them that it is ok to destroy a family because you don't get along - rather than that you should make every effort to get along. They are expected to make an effort to get along with their siblings - but their parents don't have to? I sure don't believe that, and I don't want my kids to grow up placing so little value on commitment and family.

nellie;<BR>You have explained this well to your kids and<BR>I agree with your take on this "we don't get along any more" <BR>What a cop out when one parent uses this as an excuse to indoctrinate the kids when they know the story...<BR>My H used "different values!!! That means if you have different values and you were happily married that it is ok, but when you want to end it, you use this. IMHO it don't wash.<P>Better to state, "Mom and I" or "dad and I" or even better together to say that "we are having problems and cannot live together...or a similar vein. " <P>If the kids are to young for the details, then they are too young for ANY reason. If they are older and the WS parent is with op, the kids should know this...they will find out soon enough anyway and then there is the kids confusion as to what is going on anyway that has to be dealt with....just my take on the mess that is visited on the kids!<P>Jan98<BR>How hard it is for you with young ones. I believe that for the kids , any age is hard , but dealing with this infidelity, mid life crisis and divorce is the hardest time of ones life and my heart goes out to all the children who have to go through all this due to the selfish, egocentric stupidity of someone who thinks they are an adult and a worthwhile and caring parent. <BR>Adolescents and WS do only care for themselves. Adolescents learn though, and mnay of our WS do not!<BR>

Nellie/willbok,<P>Thanks for the input. I think the "Dad and I are having problems" verbiage is much better than the standard "we don't get along." I want my kids to grow up with a strong sense of family and committment. I believe in this strongly enough that I will not introduce my children to anyone I date, until I'm darn sure they will be around for a while. Even before I knew of his affair, my H went out with the OW with my kids. Silly me, I was happy that he had a friend at work who had a niece and nephew close to our kids ages. <P>Willbok99, it's not hard having young children. In fact it's quite wonderful participating in their lives. We are quite the team. I didn't understand how much a family we were until just recently. My 6 yr old daughter brought home her journal from kindergarten. Each and every single entry dealing with family contained pictures of the three of us (me, my son and daughter). OK, some of the pictures included those darn Pokemon.<P>I have this book called Mom's house/Dad's House and it focuses on separate houses and the language you should use to talk about the two. I got my X a copy, but I don't think he even cracked the spine. <P>Sure, it can be rough at times, but I'm truly proud of my kids and especially happy that we ALL landed on our feet. <BR>