My H is so way out and clueless that I do not know what to do anymore. <P>My 14 year old daughter came home today with black padded push up, revealing cleavage bras that her dad had bought her. He told her that she better start to wear these type of things otherwise she will let herself go!!!!! This is a 14 year old he tells!<P>I had bought her appropriate underwear 3 weeks ago and explained why she could not have more adult bras(she is VERY developed)...so today she asked dad.<P>He of course does not have a clue..and ow is only too happy to conspire. <BR>How do I get the message across to my daughterAGAIN that her father is a lunatic in terms of this stuff (I did tell her that he has lost his mind and is clueless about so much) I cannot talk to H as he has dropped the ball so many times when I have called andeither put the phone down on me or stated that it is the kids choice.<P>Where will he be when daughter forms a relationship with a much older man? Where will he be if she is ever raped? I guess he will state that it is not his business!!!<P>I do not even want to discuss their father with the kids, but he keeps on making choices which enable them to make poorer choices than they should be able to and this really is my dilemma. <BR>With the older 2 they now have to make their own choices, but two teens cannot really understand how stupid and pathetic H's choices are, especially when it enables them to do stupid things with consequences that they would not even have thought of.<BR>At least this should be discussed with them so that they can make more educated choices...but even that is not done!!!<p>[This message has been edited by willbok99 (edited June 10, 2000).]

My children are not yet teenagers, but I can assure you (from a male point-of-view), your husband is way out of line. He needs to be a responsible parent and protect his children. I don't know what he his thinking.<P>I don't think, however, it's healthy for your daughter to hear that her dad is a "lunatic". You must try not to put her Dad down. Cutting down the other parent will only jeapordize your daughter's emotional well-being and development; unfortunately, it may destroy your relationship with your daughter.<P>It sounds like your H and you do not agree much about anything. I think, however, the ideal solution is for both of you to be consistent on certain rules. Have you tried expressing your concerns to you XH, in a calm and non-aggressive manner, regarding why you feel your daughter shouldn't be wearing cleavage-revealing bras? Let him know that you're concerned about her being molested, raped, and used.<P>Have you discussed these concerns with your daughter? I think she's old enough to discuss these concerns with you. Let her know you care for her and want her to be safe. Explain to her your concerns. Educate her.<P>I wish you luck. It's hard enough raising kids alone. You don't need an unreasonable and irresponsible parent destroying what you've taught your children.<P>Best of luck,<BR>Andrew

"Expressing your concerns" does not work if the spouse is not behaving rationally, and will almost invariably be interpreted as controlling.<P>My kids have said that their father was abducted by aliens, and sometimes I think they almost believe it. I think it is far better for them to realize that their father is suffering from depression (or maybe even alien abduction) than to think that he is choosing fully rationally to do all the seemingly heartless things he has done, refusing to have them visit more than about one night a month each, criticizing them when they try to express their feelings, blaming them for not calling him when he almost never calls them, etc.

GND:<BR>Thank you for taking the time to give a rational male perspective. Unfortunately my H (not X as yet) is even more clueless that he and I should communicate about kids issues. He is so caught up in ow AND the new life and IMO irrational choices thast he will hear NO BAD. If I approach him as I have and couched the discussion as "we are concerned parents about...." he states "it is X childs choice" which is all very well if the kids know the limits , but totally wrong when there are no boundaries what so ever as there are NONE in H's life so should be none for anyone else.<BR>The sad part is that each of the 4 kids can see it more parentally than their dad if the issue at the moment concerns a sibling, but not them. This is so hard for them and I am being as consistent as I can. I do not "bash" their dad, but on professional advice can and do say that his decisions regarding a particular situation (and this is almost daily) are inappropriate which the kids are coming to learn is ok...I have told them that how their dad lives is his life etc, and I do not bash him in this regard.<P>Nellie:<BR>Thank you again. This seems to be such a painful and needless battle, but you understand it so clearly....<BR>My kids do not see their father being abducted, and this makes it harder for them. They see him as a selfish egocentric man whose love they have to earn at all costs and this is so sad. This is why I have had to delineate the boundaries so clearly. H needs to be the "favpourite and more popular parent and therefore not parent really (uncle dad) while I will continue and there are no prizes but my kids will be better equipped to deal with the world as adults than if I simply ignore their father's irrational choices.

Willbok99<P>Is there any legal way to get an evaluation on him? is there any way to limit his time?<P>I know it sounds bad, but maybe tough love is the best medicine here, especially if the court would recommend it.<P>just a thought.<P>I will be up against bulemia/anorexia in several years, since the W and MIL have a<BR>family history of it, and I can already see<BR>mental illness in my daughter, and my W isattached to her so closely.<P>It is yucky, and maybe the courts are the only way to go. I know a firend here went and got a psych review, and changed the whole<BR>custody agreement so that the kids would be better.<P>Your position is so bad, I wish I could come over and help so I am thinking about you<BR>and your kids.<P>thl

Wilbook,<BR>I understand completely. Some people have a hard time understanding when they have not gone through these things.<P>If I could sit down and discuss our daughters feelings and their pains with my stbx.....it would be great. But that is not an option. The WS gernerally blames you for everything...so if you try to talk to him about important issues...it is usually thrown back in your face.....just another failure on your part. In his eyes you are just trying to undermine him...make his children hate him.<P>I do understand...besides...if my stbx was willing to discuss anything...we probably wouldn't be heading for divorce court.

when i find the time:<BR>Thank you. So many people who were /are our friends see this but no one will say anything to him...basically he needs to be told to shape up or ship out of the kids lives. The truth is that they need to see him and have a relationship with him...and this is what is hard for them, but they will have to work it out themselves (with therapists)<BR>An evaluation on him will do no good as he is not physically abusive therefore the kids do need to spend time with him...and this they do decide. more or less.<P>It has created havoc with them though...they lose more and more respect for him as each day goes by (3 out of 4 )due to the way he treats them and how they see him living his life now!and this hurts them<P>Mental:<BR>Thank you and I know this is a really difficult day for you.<BR>I believe that if H could face up to the consequences of his actions from day one we would not be in this mess, but he believes he is entitled to so much and he really is not all he thinks he is, which is a shame. I think this very spoilt man has never had to face the "no" word before and apologize in a meaningful way...so this is all complicated and messy. <BR>By now I would noyt want anything to do with him even if. My kids all state they hope he loses all his money as this is all he worships now (and needs it to buy ow!) What a shame and how pathetic!

willbok99<P>Its not for physical abuse, no, no, no.<BR>A psych evaluation is for the best interests of the kids, and that is to evaluate the <BR>abilities of the parents to be parents.<BR>And how the attitudes of the kids have changeddue to the changes in the situation.<P>Talk to your lawyer about it. Seriously, inquire, and then think about it. It is important that they have their father, but NOT AS MUCH if he is really playing with their minds.<P>I will be in your shoes in exactly 2 months.<BR>And although I hesitate to do it, I will think about it, and find out more about it.<P>don't preconceive an answer, get some information, and talk to your lawyer about it. And if he/she doesn't have any good references, look for another. You only have so much time before they could be<BR>psychologically toast.<P>thl<BR>

WhenI find the time.<BR>Thanks again.<BR>My older 2 sons are 19 years and away at school except in summer. My son of 16 and my daughter of 14 live with me and have since separation in march 1999. H does not want to have the kids live with him really but is too cowardly to tell kids.This has caused major confusion for the youngest 2 but is resolved for the most part in that they have found through experience that they have no choice (they have stormed out, angry at an issue, H has taken them and then they have had to deal with the original issue beofre simply waltzing back in (an older son is pulling this now at the moment)<BR>There is no issue of who is the best parent at the moment...H is "uncle dad"but does not understand the boundaries children need..different levels etc for different ages.<P>While I did file in July1999, there are too many financial issues to resolve for anything to move forward, but qwe are not having a custody order as the kis are really old enough to decide and they are here. <P>I have what my lawyer calls de facto custody and we have a sort of visitation worked out which now only applies to d as son stated he wanted to see dad whenever...and more...so now hardly sees him! H plays favourites and uses the kids for his own needs...never sees them together as 4, etc etc.<BR> <BR>H would only want them so as not to pay child support for younger two!!!!He would then leave them alone and lead his empty nester, hedonistic lifestyle and get a housekkeper to look after them (maybe ow, the 28 year old tramp!)<P>This is a mess deluxe.<BR>

Willbok, <BR>I had a little success speaking calmly with my x about her letting d see R rated and s seeing pg13 rated movies, both which are not old enough. X did see my point and has relented. She still is crazy though and I kind of hold my breath wehn they are with her for an extended period of time.<P>They all seem to want the kids to grow up so fast. I guess they figure if the kids are "grown up" it will be easier for both the kids and them to deal with their situation.

I have a 14 year old daughter as well and I'd like to take the frying pan to your H. As if 14 year olds don't have enough body image trouble--her dad says she need cleavage or she's letting herself go? UGH UGH UGH! <P>Do whatever you have to to safeguard your kids. And, at 14 you don't have to tell her he's a lunatic, she's old enough to have made her own conclusions.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

Willbok99<P>I finally figured out how you got your name,<BR>but my serious question is<P>Willubok2000?<P>UGH, our whole situations just smack of <BR>mental illness.<P>thl

RWD:<BR>Thank you for the reply. That is the issue is it not. Basically I believe my H is no longer grown up and therefore how can he make grown up decisions? And yet he does, and continues to influence the kids which has made me seem like this wicked witch.<BR>I do not care about that part any more as I am who I am and know if I was not here for the kids they would crumble (whether they always appreciate it or not! and sometimes they do express that they know this is difficult for me as their father continually lets them down even now)<P>Lor:<BR>Thank you...and yes I do refer to their father in less than positive tones...not necessarily a lunatic (my words loosely on the post) but that their father is not making the best choices as he has never had to make these decisions before and does not know what is right or wrong in terms of x or y. <P>Whenifindthetime:<BR>Thank you again...you figured it out!!! (I am no longer incognito!) and yes i will be ok in 2000 and beyond and so will my 4 children. I do not think H will be but that is his problem as I see his life in a continual downward spiral in search of this elusive happiness. Oh dear, he has a lot of growing up to do...it is a pity he chose not to do this before and acted out at 46 as this has hurt in the long run not only himself and me, but more importantly, our 4 children.<P>Actually I finally figured out that if I took him out of my equation and simply did what was right for the kids in my eyes (which includes a relationship with the kids and their father as they all have to work out) and keep plugging away at the values, morals and parenting I believe in for the kids then the 5 of us will know which way is up and this includes making very tough parental decisions and not letting these 4 teens walk all over me.<P>It might include losing one, but that will be his choice. I look on the positive that 3 out of 4 with their heads screwed on correctly for the most part is not too bad.<BR>One 19 year old is a big mess and has buried all his emotions and does not have anything to do with me as I made a parental decision and stood by it. So this kid and father and bonding in a negative way at the moment...this too shall pass...or it will not, but my son might just learn about being a man in the process.

Willbok99<P>You indeed sound like one of the thinking types, which can eventually find the best answers for all. I agree with your solution, and at least the most susceptible is 19 YO. Imagine if it happened 3-4 years ago. <P>Yes, I am fighting a similar battle everyday, but with much younger. The battle of feminine manipulation by 8 YO. Actually, I noticed it 2-3 years ago, which IMO, is<BR>MUCH to early.<P>When i am home, 8 YO d is very independent. When W comes home, d turns into a whiner for attention. W loves to be needed, does not want to foster independence, because that will result in not being needed as much! <P><BR>Well, you appear to be creating your own solution to an ugly situation. I commend you for this, and hope that you will eventually find peace and solitude again in your life.<P>thl<P>

wheni find the time:<BR>Thanks again. My 14 year old d is the biggest manipulator...but then again she learnt from a master...her dad. <BR>The younger 2 are in therapy, d has ADHD which causes other problems and her parents' craziness doesnot help with her impulsive choices!!!<BR>Actually it has taken me a long time to sort this out. D day was Jan 1999 and we have been separated since March 1999.<BR>H will not communicate with me as kids have told me "he hates talking to you!"<BR>What an a##hole this man has become. I do not like who he has become, but I do call him about kids issues which affect him>>>><BR>Such as when he wants to take a kid out (outside regular visitation) and that kid has school work that HAS to be done, but cannot tell papa "no" etc...