I think what bothers me the most about divorce support groups, both in real life and online, is that everyone seems to assume that divorce is either a mutual decision or the decision of the betrayed. It seems like almost everyone on this divorcing/divorced forum filed (Jim is the only except I can think of). <P>I did not file. I would never ever have filed in a million years. No matter what. I married for life. I love my H, even the abducted by aliens version. I will always love my H. Real love is unconditional, no matter what Harley says to the contrary.

Nellie,<BR>Please do not go. Whether or not we all deal with this situation in the same way or not(filing or waiting etc) is only how we deal with this. <BR>For all of us I believe that the present marriage or unmarriage does not and will never again exist.<BR>Some of us may be lucky enough to have a new and better marriage with our WS and othersd for many reasons will not have that choice. I do hope that with all you believe in that one day your H will wake up and realize how very lucky he is and work with you in a new marriage (whether you are divorced or not it will still be a "new" marriage)<P>Nellie, I do feel for you, I feel your bewilderment, your disillusionment and all the grief. <P>It is important for you and me and all on the board and out there to understand what essentially is a most horrendous experience...infidelity is bad enough (and I would not have filed had my H remained true to the values as a parent,and as a human being as I KNEW HIM TO BE) it is how he has treated the children and myself that has been the most damaging and this could not continue.<P>Each of us deals with this MLC (or whatever the turmoil that besets our spouses) in a different way....we have to as we all come with our own baggage and limits, but do not go. It is your choice to wait for the alien to exit your H's body...that does not mean you are not going through similar experiences with children, finances and emotions despite it not being your choice. This is the reality of our day to day life as we are forced to travel this path alone at this point in time....and that is what I believe this board is forin addition to marriagebuilding if at all possible.<P>

Hi Nellie,<P>I <B>did</B> counterfile... <P>My W was threatening to take it <B>all</B>...<BR>...kids to a new state<BR>...have kids be brought up by OM<BR>...house<BR>...savings<BR>...pension<BR>...restrict my living near her to no less than 15 miles<BR>...the whole ball of wax!!! ...and more!<BR>(I have her grand schemes blue printed in e-mail between my W and the OM...<BR>...you've got to see these to believe them)<P>Morally... I am as opposed to divorce as anyone I know...<BR>...but the realities of losing my kids...<BR>...having them raised by a man I knew nothing about<BR>...moving to the state when OM was... just to be near my kids...<BR>...rebuilding my entire life... financially<BR>...meant I had to counter-file!<P>I still ask her... about every other e-mail... "can't we stop the divorce"...<BR>...and a certain "no" is always returned! <P>One interesting thing I found out just this week...<BR>...my kids (all 3) said that their mom is now having fights with the OM...<BR>...hmmmmmmmm...<BR>...makes me think...<BR>...but I'll follow my own advice first...<BR>...<B>I'll keep my expectations low</B>!!!<P>...AND YES...<BR>...<B>I don't want this divorce</B>!!!!!!!<P> <P>Jim

Nellie,<P>I love the man I married, I alway will ... unfortunatly, the man who divorced me is not that same man. It wasn't a mutual dicission, (at least not in the beginning).. I didn't want to divorce, I wanted to work things out... X wanted his twinky and me too (the uncomplaining doormat I had been anyway). When I decided I didn't want to continue that way, he didn't want to give up his extramarital activities, and he made the choice. Now we are both dealing with the consiquences...<P>Maybe I have grown, or just realized that I have worth and value outside of that relationship and I'm adjusting to being divorced. I still don't believe in divorce, I never wanted to be divorced, but at the same time, I never wanted to be so totally unhappy as I was the last year of my marriage.<P>I guess I just wanted to tell you you are not alone, even if our opinions and the outcomes differ... Hope I didn't come across as defensive or overly strung out... it's been one of <I>those</I> weeks .<P>Wishing you all the best.<BR>Butterfly<BR><P>------------------<BR>There are deep sorrows and killing cares in life, but the encouragement and love of friends were given us to make all difficulties bearable. <BR>-- John Oliver Holmes<P>The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.<BR>-- Elie Wiesel<P><BR>

Hi Nellie,<P>Yes, I did file. Not because I wanted to, but because I felt there was no reason NOT to. I know that sounds a bit convoluted and maybe I'm just a quitter, but I knew H was never coming back. For MY sake and sanity, I filed. It was to help me move forward. If you don't want to file, then don't. Every person has to make his or her own decision. This is NOT what I wanted. I love my H still. I still do not want to be divorced, but he does. There's a part of me that knows until he fully deals with and experiences the consequences, I don't have a chance anyway. I may NEVER have another chance at this marriage. Basically it is up to him at this point. I don't think anyone here faults you for your decision...I certainly don't. I admire your perserverence. I wish I could hang in there, but I find I keep getting caught up in the whole soap opera-ness of it and I end up not dealing with everyday reality. It became too much for me to deal with. At least this way, I "officially" don't have to care what he does or does not do. I know that sounds weird, but something about the legality of it makes me feel less out of control. Maybe this doesn't make sense to anyone else but me. I hope you don't quit coming to this forum. Regardless of who filed or who betrayed, we help one another here - someone who understands our pain, if not our decisions. But far be it from me to judge anyone else's life decisions. I've certainly made a mess of my own life. You are a valued person in this forum, and if you quit coming here I will miss you. <P><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

I think Butterfly said it well when she said that she felt she had worth and value outside the relationship. I think that many women don't, and have so much of who they are attached to another person. I don't believe my purpose on this planet, as planned out by God himself, was to be married to Ken. That's just something, an event, that happened along the way. I'm as devastated that it didn't work out as everyone else here, but I have a future and am a separate person from him and won't let my whole world and purpose for being here be tilted because he made the choice to unzip outside the marriage way to many times. We are all much bigger than our marriages (either current or former). That doesn't mean I don't believe in becoming "one" when people are married, just that even though you are "one" with the other person - you still have an identity of your own.<P>All I know is that I can either spend my life being angry, sad and bitter towards him (with good reason), or I can DECIDE to be happy and try to make the best of my own life, help others in pain if I can, and make as many friends as I can to fill up my life and hopefully add to theirs. My biggest asset is trust in God to take over. If He wants it fixed, it will be. Sometimes He has a way better plan in the works. Time will tell.

Jim, <BR>You have emails??? So do I!!!! It was just heart wrenching to read them, the plans they were making, the lies that were said....<P>I finally, about 2 weeks ago decided to throw them all away. Why keep them at this point?? For months I would re read them, to the point that it was not healthy for me.<P>Nellie, <BR>I filed because he would not discontinue the affair, was making plans to take assets and leave me, to create even more porblems in our joint owned business. I will not be a financial victim, even though I was from an emotional standpoint. I made it very clear to him that I loved him, that my marriage was important, but that I had to protect my kids and myself from any irrational decisions he may make. He had EVERY opportunity to come back to me and work on the marriage. He choose not to. He did not postpone the divorce. Even a week before it was final I told him we could put it on hold. He didn't want to.<BR>You belong here just as much as any of us, if you want to be here. Many here still want their marriage, many have moved on. Do not feel that you don't belong.We ALL belong, esp if we truly value the MB principles. Because, perhaps another chance with our spouses will come our way, perhaps we will find another relationship. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

Nellie,<P>I didn't file. You are one of the only people on this site who is "standing" for her marriage like I am.<P>There are many people "standing" on the divorce busting site. <A HREF="http://www.weiner-davis.com" TARGET=_blank>www.weiner-davis.com</A> <P> There is a STANDER'S PRAYER CIRCLE thread, that has 78 people like us on it! And, it grows stronger everyday. You are NOT alone.<P>There are 2 fabulous ministries based on the STANDING principle. Both were founded by wives who were divorced by their H's. Both men left their wives and their families for an OW. <P>But, the good news is, that in both cases their H's came back. They are each happily remarried to their H's. It can and does happen Nellie. But, it takes great faith, perseverance and patience. Qualities that you have in abundance.<P>Go visit their websites...I think you will find great encouragement and comfort in the many testimonies available to read on their sites.<P>They are Restore Ministries at:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.restorem.org" TARGET=_blank>www.restorem.org</A> <P>and<P>Rejoice Ministries at:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.rejoiceministries.org" TARGET=_blank>www.rejoiceministries.org</A> <P>They each sell tapes and books that are terrific. I particurally like the ones at Restore Ministries. I e/m Erin quite a lengthy letter, explaining my whole situation, and she personally answered me back and gave me wonderful insight into my situation with my xH.<P>I hope this helps you, you are not alone.<P>~skye~<P><p>[This message has been edited by skye (edited June 14, 2000).]

willbok,<P>I think my H's disconnection and behavior toward the children has been for me even more evidence that he is suffering from MLC/depression rather than just that he has a problem with me. If it were just that he didn't want to be married to me, he would still be the devoted dad that he used to be. <P>Jim,<P>In my state, it was not necessary to counterfile. A divorce filing can be contested for a variety of reasons - financial, custody, and merit. As a matter of fact, an uncontested divorce can not be granted unless both parties are willing to state before a judge that they believe the marriage is irretrievably broken, which I could not do without perjuring myself.<P>That is interesting that your W and the OM are fighting. Although I think my H might be careful not to argue with her in front of the kids, he sure sounded annoyed when she was telling him what to say while he was talking on the phone to me. If it were I, I would find that incredibly disrespectful - did she think that he would cave in if she didn't "help" him? <P>Butterfly,<P>I don't believe that I only have worth as my H's wife. I just don't believe that people's personalities change unless there is depression or other mental illness involved.<P>Keridwen,<P>I don't know what I would have done without this forum over the last 16 months. I am very grateful for all the support. <P>Sometimes it seems like the tone of the Divorced/Divorcing forum has changed recently, and some of the posts do not seem very consistent with marriage building..<P>weirded out,<P>I don't think I am spending my life bitter - yes, I am angry, and certainly sad. I never felt that I had lost my identity in my marriage, but my H and children are far more important to me than any other aspect of my life. I don't think "it didn't work out" is really applicable to a relationship that lasted a quarter of a century, though.<P>sue,<P>I guess my state is different. The financial aspects have nothing to do with filing in this state. Here, you can get a temporary order without anyone having filed. I'm sure sharing a business makes things more complicated though.<P>skye,<P>It's nice to hear from you again. I also read the MLC posts on the divorce busting site, though I usually just lurk there. <P>I will check out those sites.<P>

nellie, it's interesting that you note that this forum is not as "marriagebuilding" as it could be. im glad skye metioned those resources for you.<BR>i was telling a dear friend about the whole of my nasty situation for the first time, and she said, "it sounds like if he got rid of OW you would take him back in a second". i told her she was right. but for crying out loud, H will NOT give the woman up, even though he claims he isn't sleeping with her and does not want to marry her.. I just can't believe a word that comes out of his mouth, and, like you, i think it is due to some major mental health issues (like, he's a pathological liar to the point where im wondering if i should get an anullment based on total misrepresentation on his part). a tiny part of me keeps hoping...im just not OVER him yet, and we've only been together 3.5 years!!! i can't imagine losing 22 years like you have. yikes.<BR>well, anyway, don't leave for good, you know this place well enough that something is bound to come along that's helpful <BR>julie

Nellie1,<P>As much as I gripe about my ex-H, I still love him. I can't imagine I will ever stop loving him. My refusal to date and my enforced abstinence/celibacy are partly because he still lives in my heart. Yes I cheated. Once. To the best of my understanding now, I believe it was a nervous breakdown or mental illness. In any case, I didn't want a divorce. If my ex did the same to me (and he did, and so did my first H) I would not have divorced him. Even after my first husband slept with over 20 women, I didn't want a divorce. <P>To this day, I still believe that almost anything can be overcome in a marriage. Yes, there may be times apart, like you are experiencing now, but that bond will never go away. I don't care how many judges sign a piece of paper. <P>You hang in there, girl.<P>

Nellie, <BR>I believe that this particular forum was made so that those of us, whether still actively working on trying to save our marriage in the midst of divorce, or whether some of us have decided to move on a different path in our lives, but feel the MB principles are sound advice can come to vent, express opinions, get support, etc, with out exposing those in the infidelity board to our situations. <BR>Some of us here are dealing with different issues other than saving a marriage. Just look at the posts to the dating question?? And there is a lot of good discussion going on there. <BR> But many of us know and embrace the MB principles. For whatever reason, we have moved to this place in our lives. And there are many, too many of us. But live goes on, many of us enjoy the support and friendship of those we have met through the infidelity board. I believe this is an appropriate place for us. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

lwb,<P>I guess I was just expecting something different when they added this forum - maybe I thought it was going to be more aimed at dealing with unwanted divorce, and it sometimes seems like some of the posters are not just resigned but downright enthusiastic. <P>TheStudent,<P>I also do believe that almost anything can be overcome in marriage, and that the bond will ever go away. My H and I have lived together longer than either of us lived with anyone else on earth, including our parents. I will always love him. <P>sue,<P>I am not quite sure why exposing the people on the infidelity board to our situations would be a bad thing. <P><p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited June 16, 2000).]

Nellie, <BR>I beleive when we are at the point where one of the parties is condsidering divorce, you have reached a different point than on the other board. Take the dating thread...the people on the infidelity board are not there yet. Also, the venting we do here about our x's. Clearly LB, don't you think???But for many of us, our marriages ARE over, so the LB are not impacting the marriage. Also, some of the custody issues that are discussed here would prob bother those on the other board that are actively trying to save their marriage. <BR>If they want to read here, that is fine. For me, I am glad there is a distinction of the forum. I find I seldom go over to the other one because of where I am in my situation. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

Nellie,<P>This is a good forum for you - I am back here as a participant now, but for close to 2 years I "lurked."<P>I think this forum, with its varied stages and attitudes keeps one sane when going through a devastating time. Nice to be able to compare progress, see hope, or see people acting like idiots, so that YOU don't do it yourself. Funny how easy it is to see obvious mistakes other people make. It isn't so easy to see it in yourself. <P>I wasn't married as long as you, but I suspect we are about the same age. I am 43, waited til I 33 to get married. Love does change over the years, I know for me, having children with my husband made me love him more deeply, and more comfortably. I really felt like we were "one." <P>My husband went through a "midlife" crisis, as he wants to rationalize it. That's a crock. He got bored with the routine, and, in my case, a 19 year old girl, who thought it was a compliment to have an older married man want to have sex with her, made him feel young again. A good excuse for really bad behavior. It was a selfish choice - he was living only for the moment.<P>Am I hard on participants in affairs? You bet. I don't think there could be a more basic insult. <P>I divorced my husband. I got a lawyer, and I made sure that my kids were protected.<P>Do I still love my husband? Absolutely. <P>Would I have taken him back? In a heartbeat, if he showed true remorse. If he honestly understook how awful it was. If I could be sure that would never happen again.<P>But he didn't. While he tells my children he still loves me, and he doesn't understand why he can't come home - whines about how hard his life is - he is clueless. He could have gotten me back. I look on my exhusband now, like cigarette smoking - I loved it, I still think about how great it was, but I know I'd never do it again, because it will kill me. <P>And another thing to think about, which I did - as badly as I wanted him back, did I want to show my children that this was how men were supposed to treat women? <P>I would recommend to you, that you be strong for yourself and your children. Move on. Think with your head right now, not your heart. Tough to do. But nothing says you can't take him back. Only you will know if he really is sorry.<P>I think that is a real possibility for you - but you might surprise yourself and not want him back.

honey.west, <BR>sue,<P>Are you saying that at soon as one party considers divorce, the marriage is over, even if the other party knows nothing about it? I guess I never belonged on the other board, then, since the first I knew that my H was even considering divorce was the day before he moved out. <P>honey.west,<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And another thing to think about, which I did - as badly as I wanted him back, did I want to show my children that this was how men were supposed to treat women?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is not about how men are supposed to treat women. This is not about punishment or revenge. I believe my "real" H is still there, somewhere. If my H told me he still loved me and wanted to come back, I wouldn't agonize over whether he was sufficiently remorseful.

I think I stood up for my marriage.<P>I think I fought for my marriage.<P>I think I was so beaten up emotionally by my x that I had little other choice. He had raided our meager assets. He had jerked my chain once too often. The people who had held my hand on the spiritual and the emotional issues could see what was happening to me. I was to the point where I could not adequately mother my two children. I had to find some peace. I felt like my x had behaved in the manner of an unbeliever. I simply couldn't take what he was dishing out. This was the only way to find peace. God didn't like it but God didn't like the choices "what's-his-name" made and, since God let's us make bad choices, we were both let down by the actions of a sick man. <P>I had to look at how God wanted my children raised. One parent in a happy home beat two parents who were miserable. The only reason I was miserable was because my x had checked out of the marriage. He was and is sick and I felt that the three of us had to have some inner peace and sanity. But we will pay for this mans choices for the rest of our lives. I am still angry and disappointed about how he treated me but I also feel like I have been given a new life. Some of my friends have talked about how bad I looked during that time. I don't know how I survived. Except through my faith in God. <P>I held on to my hopes and dreams as long as possible. Then I had to accept a new life.<BR>Read the marriage buster stuff but one person couldn't do it all.<BR> <BR>Am I looking forward to the future? You bet!! Have I been released from that man? I think so. Is there someone else out there? Who knows. I'm looking forward to the blessings God has in store for me? You bet!!<P><p>[This message has been edited by cinderella (edited June 19, 2000).]

I filed for divorce first, as my attorney at that time advised me to. This was in order to protect our financial assets. However, I put the marriage on hold and the action was null and void after a year. I wanted to give him a chance to see if that was what he really wanted.<P>I did find out who the woman in question was. It seemed that she lives only 3 miles from me. I still drive by her house every night just to give me a clue as to what is going on. I have not seen him there nearly as much as I did two years ago. It seems that he is there only once a week or so.<P>Last year, she bought a jeep which she is now trying to sell. I have by chance seen that jeep in three different locations in this city. She has an unlisted phone number but I saw a number on her jeep and at a trailer park which she owns in a small town from here.<P>I have some feelings for him, but mostly I miss his family. I have gone through too much heartache to long for him back. Yet, a big part of me wants to see that relationship fail. He says he wants to see me happy. I hope that he can be happy but not with that woman. Am I too full of revenge or is that normal for this situation.<P>Nellie, I can understand your feelings here and hope that somehow you can work things out if that is possible.

nellie,<BR> My W filed not me. I was forced into signing because in my state it really didn't matter if I signed or not. I was in the same boat as you said "an uncontested divorce can not be granted unless both parties are willing to state before a judge that they believe the marriage is irretrievably broken, which I could not do without perjuring myself"<BR> I stalled and stalled. When her lawyer threated me with "Taking what she deserves" I called my W and told her if he did it again I would walk out of our home with only my clothes and she could have EVERYTHING absolutly EVERYTHING. And I'm not bragging but it was a LOT more than she would have won otherwise. I refused to bring "Money" into it since there are older married children only.<BR> I found out that it didn't matter she would just win by default since I live in the same state. I even considered moving out of state but found out AFTER I found that may hold it up. So, july 7th. GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK<P>------------------<BR>desperate<BR>"If yesterday didn't stop today, Why should TODAY stop tomorrow??" <BR>"Wisdom is why!!"<P>

Hi, <P>Not saying that at all - but the hardest thing (and smartest thing) for you to do right now is be objective, and take the advice you would give someone else in your situation. <P>Things right now are completely out of your control. Instead of reacting to things, what worked best for me was being proactive. As miserable as I was (I dropped from 130 to 102 lbs - I'm 5'7") without him, I got through it.<P>And no, it isn't about revenge or getting even, but I can't be blind, and read things into his words that I want - He wants a comfortable lifestyle back - not a true marriage. I'm not agonizing over it - I'm not demanding penance, or trying to punish him - but he must show true remorse. I'll know. Without a doubt, within a few years, that itch would happen again - and I cannot be a revolving door. But I am the judge there - only I can gauge his sincerity - if I ever hear the tenderness in his voice again, or if I see a hint of the man I married ... but so far no. But the more time goes by, the less likely that is to happen, and the less likely I am to be receptive.<P>And I think its pretty stinky he tells those things to my boys. But again, it is just that selfishness coming out, not thinking of the boys at all.<P>One more thing that being strong, and "taking care of business" does for you - if you do get back with your husband, it makes it a heck of a lot easier to deal with all the people who will say "you aren't going to take him back are you, after what he did to you?" <P>You just look them in the eye and say "absolutely." <P>Stay here - it really helps, whatever the outcome.<P>