The next one should be good looking and have a "big one", because if I ever decide to become non-celibate, I probably won't care much about his other qualities.<P>Of course, that will get old after awhile, so the one after that should like to cook and be physically active (running,biking,etc.)<P>Then, after that, I might like someone who buys me lots of stuff, because I'll be sending my kid(s) to college by then and won't have alot of money to go out.<P>Then, after I retire, I'll look for someone who likes to travel. <P>Finally, when I'm old and grey and not able to get around much, I'll be thankful that I spent my life nurturing the relationships with my family and close friendships instead of pursuing an imaginary dream man. <P>Of course, I'm being just a little facetious. Most of the time, people just look for the opposite sex to do for them instead of asking what they can do for the other person. Like anyone else, I've got a long list of stuff I'd like some guy to do for me. However, I'm realistic enough to notice that most relationships between men and women have nothing to do with real love (which is not a feeling). Most male/female relationships are about who fills out your list of "needs" at any given time, according to Harley. When those needs change, it is time to move onto the next person, because you can't expect them to change to suit you. <P>Oh, I should add that any of the men above should provide those services at my convenience because most of the time I'm quite happy to just spend time with my family and friends. If some guy can't fill whatever need I happen to have at the time, I'm perfectly happy to do exactly what I'm doing right now. The most important thing I've learned from my marriages, is that it is pointless to sacrifice a single day in the service of some man. After they've used you up and gotten everything they "need" from you, they are gone. Ok. I can do that too, or I can live without. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited July 12, 2000).]

Well you got me snickering. And I'm at work, but obviously don't want to work very hard today.<P>Think you're right with the changing needs, but think its possible to find one person to fill them, as I will fill someone else's as their needs change.<P>Oh, yeah, and I disagree sex EVER getting old...<BR>

Well, of course, sex wouldn't get old, just with that guy. <P>My whole point is that there isn't one person who can fulfill all of our needs. If the reason for pursuing a relationship is to have our needs filled, then there is no reason to stay with one person. For those who can't wait to date after their divorce, well, I consider them not a whole lot different than the spouses they divorced (or divorced them). Both believe that their lives will magically improve if they can find someone who can check off their "needs list". A plug-in man or woman who will miraculously fit their current lifestyle, whatever that may be.<P>But I'm being too serious. I forgot that dating is all about "having fun", which really means...suck the life out of them till you get bored. If they get bored with you first, it can be called a "learning experience". What a laugh.

She should look something in-between Cindy Crawford and those girls on "Friends". Especially Jennifer Aston or whatever her name is. Or Courtney Cox. But I suppose I'm being fussy. Oh, and she shouldn't ever get older either. One of those people just stays 24.<P>She should probably have a PhD in rocket science or something.<P>Her dad should be really, really wealthy and own a liquor store. I've always wanted to see if money really won't make me happy. Personally, whenever I see pictures of guys on those big boats with a cigar in their hand, they don't look unhappy. Oh ya, she should have a big boat, too. And a box of cigars.<P>It goes without saying that her world will revolve around me.<P>She should love my children like no one else. But she shouldn't have her own children or want any unless I decide I would like some more.<P>And of course, she shouldn't encroach on my free time at all. It's all soccer, skiing, fishing, and partying from here on in so I hope she like skiing.<P>Of course, I'm just going to keep on being my selfish old self and drinking too much, basically playing sports 5 days a week and seeing my kids the other 2, and working 12 hour days.<P>Is this too much to ask?<P>On a serious note, I think if you just do what you do and don't worry about such things, eventually you'll look beside you one day and notice that somebody is standing right there. It's a little freaky, but it happens to everybody sooner or later.<P>On the other hand, I think spending a lot of time "looking" for what you want eventually leads to disaster. It's not like shopping for a car. It's too forced. With the right person, it just kind of works.<P>That's my theory anyway.<BR>

nonplused,<BR>You made me laugh, and I'm not being sarcastic this time!<P>You said:<BR>With the right person, it just kind of works.<P>Yes, until you change or they change and all of a sudden, it is not working anymore. Then you're back to what I said earlier. Toss 'em aside for the next "right" person who works and fits into one's lifestyle...<P>Unless you're like me, who happens to believe that a life-time commitment means just that. LIFETIME. But now that I'm divorced, I can be just like everyone else with the added benefit that I won't be playing mind-games with myself pretending that right person really loves me or anything. And I won't be giving or losing anything of a long-term nature, cause I know I'll be sent out the door when they get too bored, or when I become inconvenient, ya know.<P>Most people who file for divorce are like those who send their dog to the pound if they tear up the couch. Who cares if the dog is probably going to get euthanized? As long as my furniture looks nice. If they move, heck, send Fido to the pound for that too. Wouldn't want to be burdened with him in the "new place". It's not convenient. H@ll, most people can't even finish a life-time commitment to an animal, much less another person. <P>"...but it happens to everybody sooner or later."<BR>Nope. Been there, done that, won't go there again. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited July 12, 2000).]

Okay Student, I'll bite...<P>My disclaimer: Don't feel I have even the right to hang out here, much less a decent reason. I'm getting a divorce, which I filed, and am seeing someone else. I'm not proud of it, and have all sorts of problems with my life right now, so I'm also not really the person to offer advice (so I won't, you'll be happy to know! ). <P>That said, as you know, I think you're one hell of a woman and respect you to pieces. These last two replies you wrote sound so cynical (almost mocking) and sad. Normally you sound frustrated, but very strong. Is this a turn in the tide, a riptide, or a swell in the ocean you just have to get over? <P>Just wondering... <P>I, for one, want you to be happy, with or without a man in your life. That is my hope and prayer for you.

Hey NB,<P>I guess I need to keep my opinions to myself. Like, live and let live.<P>It does really bother me (right now) when I see people, betrayed or not, so gosh darn enthusiastic about dating again. Makes me wonder why they got married in the first place. The gusto some divorced people approach dating does make me sad, and mad sometimes too. Makes me realize how pathetically, disgustingly, replaceable we all are. <P>I am happy most of the time. Just doesn't appear that way when I come here. What I see when I come here are a small handful of people who are genuinly distraught about their divorces. The rest seem intent on digging up another [censored]-buddy as soon as possible (that is what they call sex partners in the gay community). I know, I know. I'll get lots of flack for saying that, cause they're in "love" and it's "special" blah,blah. Puleeze.<P>NB. I'm glad you respect me. I don't think I've necessarily done all that much to earn your respect. I've probably offended you. Of course, I haven't lived your life or anyone else's. So, I'll make an effort to keep these opinions to myself in the future.

Hey TS, I'm glad to see you haven't left us completely. There is alot of truth to your cynicism. I have spent the last 10 months in two phases.1: getting through the pain, I thank this forum and other friends for holding my hand and 2: learning to like myself.<P>I am no where near ready for a relationship with marrital connotations nor do I want a bunch of F-buddys( though I will admit to wanting having my ashes hauled...LOL). I think when I least expect it I'll find myself in another realationship and them I can apply the things I have learned eg. commitment, surrender, acceptance, anonymity, selflessness, compassion, open-mindedness, and humility. Right now I am applying these thing to my relationships with friends both male and female. Basicly I'm getting ok with me, in fact I really like myself, I know that doesn't sound too humble but it is true. Meek doesn't mean weak, it means patent and mild. The hardest thing to practice is that open-mindedness, because I know I'm right...LOL...<P>Hang in there sister I'll bet a nickle to a doughnut you will fall in love again...If you don't at least you have a good plan.<P>Love Ya,<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR><P>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.

<B>Student</B>,<P>Don't you DARE stop saying what you feel and believe!!<P>I respect you because you have principles and character and you stick with what you know to be right for YOU. <P>You did NOT offend me in any way! In fact, I realize now that I DO NOT belong here AT ALL. If you knew what I was going through you'd lose respect for me. Life is hard sometimes, and we all are just trying to live it with some integrity and a hope for the future. Your future just happens not to include men. Your choice. I respect that.<P>Take very good care!!

WilliamJ,<P>"I'll bet a nickle to a doughnut you will fall in love again..."<P>I'm "in love" all of the time. I love my family, friends, and even my ex's. When I make a commitment, I don't stop loving them. That giddy feeling most people associate with love is not love at all. I'm sure I will have that giddy feeling again, but I know that is just hormones, not love. My ex's did not love me. They loved what I did for them, loved the feelings they had when they were around me. They didn't give a rat's *ss about my soul, about my welfare, about my spiritual growth. I was little more than a pet to them, that is why I use the dog analogy. Most people get animals because it makes them feel good, but they don't put all that much thought into the real needs of their companion animals and god forbid they'd have to sacrifice anything in order to care for them.<P>So, when things didn't feel so wonderful and giddy, out I went, just like the metaphorical dog that chewed up the couch. This is why I get so pissed off about the way people approach dating. They are looking for someone to DO for them, instead of asking themselves what they are ready to DO for someone else. They don't pause one second to consider the other person's growth. It is all about them, and feeling good. <P>"If you don't at least you have a good plan."<BR>I've always got a plan.<P>NB,<BR>I'm sorry to hear you are having problems. I haven't lost respect for people who make different choices than me. However, I do get angry and sad when I see the outcome of some of the choices people make. I've made plenty of mistakes myself. I'd expect my good friends to be disappointed with me during those times. Disappointed, but still engaged.

TS,<P>Your words sound very familiar to me. Not after my divorce, but about 13 years ago, I was engaged to "the perfect man". My life seemed to be falling into place perfectly, was going to have that idyllic life I dreamed about as a little girl.<P>I was on the fast track in my career, my fiance was handsome, successful, smart and funny.<P>As the only daughter, the wedding was going to be a magnificent affair. My fiance broke it off three weeks before the wedding which was one week before Christmas - well, actually, he forced me to break it off - he said he didn't want children, and that I had to agree to that. He panicked, and was too much of a coward to admit it. I had never been hurt before - I was totally devastated - and young enough to remain bitter. It was my "men are pigs" stage. This was when I got involved with the man I would marry and have kids with - my ex fiance kept begging to come back, but my soon to be husband got rid of him. In hindsight, it was a rebound, I wanted someone strong, but in actuality I got a bully who was after a trophy. Yes, I cared for him, but the shocking thing for me was the deep love that grew.<P>When my marriage fell apart, I was devastated, but it was different. It was a deeper wound, but I never had the bitterness. <P>For me, it wasn't a rush to date, I learned my lesson there, but an understanding of how great being in love and marriage is - when you are with the right person.<P>I just needed to be sure I didn't start dating when it might be a rebound relationship. I have never doubted I would be with someone. It isn't out of neediness. Its out of preference. I know there are stinkers out there, but I also know there are good ones too. And dating is probably not the right word. I'm not out to have fun like a teenager, I'm out to find my life partner. Right now, you don't believe there are men out there with the staying power and commitment level that you have. Well, I do. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by honey.west (edited July 13, 2000).]

"how great being in love and marriage is - when you are with the right person."<P>Yep, until they get tired of you. And I'm not just talking about men either.<P>"Right now, you don't believe there are men out there with the staying power and commitment level that you have."<P>No. I do believe there are. However, I'm not going to gamble my life savings anymore believing it is true in my case. I've been there twice. Not going through it again. <P>"I'm not out to have fun like a teenager, I'm out to find my life partner." I'm glad your intentions are good. I wish more people's were. In my case, though, if I became emotionally attached to some guy and he dumped me (no matter how "noble" his intentions), I could care less what his intentions were. The end result is exactly the same. <P>Right now, I have the ideal situation. Last year I went to Europe and a sailing course in California with a good friend. I have friends to go roller blading with, go to the movies, have dinner. Me and my roommate cook for each other regularly, go grocery shopping together, go out dancing, and go running. When I decide to have kids, I won't have a weekend dad interfering with my parenting or messing with my head. I've got everything right now that I would have if I were married or dating, except for sex. And I can get that pretty easily if I wanted that too. What I don't have is someone telling me I have to follow their career, tell me I'm selfish for going to school, compare me to other women in any way, or neglect me in any myriad of ways.

I keep thinking about the whole dating question.<P>Right now I am so happy. I have been seeing a man who is filling a lot of the voids in my emotional life. And we've not been seeing each other long enough to have any idea where this is going. Not even long enough to worry about where this is going.<P>BUT- as much as I would like to have a partner, do I have what it would take to add another person to my life? To add another person to my children's life. <P>This man meets a lot of my criteria for someone in whom I might be interested. But as much emotional energy as being a mother takes, do I have the emotional stamina to add another adult to the mix?<P>And, since we are both (and almost everyone in this forum is) survivors of "trainwrecks" how do you know how to read the signals in another relationship- especially the first one after a divorce? How can you tell if what you feel is real or if it's a rebound effect?<P>Who says life gets easier as you get older?

Cinderella, <P>Time, time, time.....that is how you find out..we need to take some time to let the "trainwreck" clean up, get our heads on straight, and learn to trust another person again.<BR>I am a firm believer that, esp after a long marriage, we need to become self sufficient and ok with ourselves, alone, first. Nothing wrong with dating, nothing wrong with emotional involvement. But to use that to take the place of our previous marriage, or to use it to avoid looking deep into ourselves and growing is wrong. <P>I have also been dating someone who feels very good to me. But I have been very clear on where I am at, what I want for my future. So far he is ok with this. I think it has helped because we knew each other as friends first, and he saw first hand what this affair my X had did to me. Plus, he has been there, too. <BR><P>------------------<BR>Susan

I've had the same exact questions about dating.<P>Actually, if I had no children, I don't think I would have any doubts. The man I am seeing makes ME very happy. But it is a package deal - I don't have the luxury of finding someone for me alone.<P>Just like you, I am concerned about his relationship with my children. If that doesn't work, then it won't work between us either. And the extra work that would be generated for me if we were to marry (not just things like housework, but intangibles like cultivating good relationships among all the impacted parties) is scary for me too - I also wonder how in the world I can take anything else on? I feel like I am at my functional limit now.<P>We are going very very slowly because of my older son - the little one is no problem at all, he loves having a man around to play with, but my oldest is having a hard time, and is viewing him as taking away his mother. <P>I wish I knew the answer. Or, who knows, maybe the best thing is to keep things like they are til my children are older? My prayers have always been answered before when the time was right. I am counting on that here too. I'll just continue to put my children first, remain positive, optimistic, and do what seems to be the morally correct and kind thing day to day. <P>And I agree with what Sue said, just take your time! Your motives are true, and things will work out for the best.

My x has been out of the house for 5 yrs. It took me about 1-1/2 to 2 yrs before I came to see myself as emotionally divorced. We weren't actually divorced until 1-1/2 yrs. ago. So I spent 3-1/2 yrs separated from "what's his name" before d day.<P>I think I'm ready for love - real, reciprocated love. But how do you know what you are actually feeling. Is it love? Is it rebound stuff? Is it lust?<P>The trainwreck is over for me. I truly feel like Cinderella (other than financially) as x was into berating me - taking never giving emotionally. You knew Cinderella was truly a woman of quality when she walked into the palace - it wasn't just the prince who thought so.<P>Well, somewhere there is a Prince for me, I hope. I would love to find him. But how will I recognize him - how will I know? I lived with deception for so many years, I'm scared to death I will not see clearly.

<P>"As I read these questions about what you would lok for NEXT TIME...<P>I would want the EXACT same person...<P>I love her, there is no other like her...<P>But something snapped and SHE is gone...<P>SO.. I wouldnt CHANGE a thing...<P>Id do it all over again...<P>Garth Brooks "The Dance"...<P>And IF there has to be another... Because she never returns...<P>If there IS another... Then that will be the Proof all the athiests have been looking for...<P>I waited 27 YEARS for this one...<P>I cant in my human thinking imagine TWO...<P>I would take her BACK if she returned to NORMAL without a second thought and forgive and forget this MAD MAD Nightmare...<P>But, reality is people Change...<P>I grew and GROW closer to God...<P>She didnt and now is directly oposed to ALL she once fought and defended...<P>And She was so strong...<P>I never thought... Of ALL the evils in the world... that she would FALL into this SIN and death...<P>There are NO WORDS to mourn the loss..."<P>GOD THESE ARE MY SENTIMENTS EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!<P><BR>

"And IF there has to be another... Because she never returns..."<P>In my case "he" never returned. There won't be another for me. I'm celibate now.<P>"If there IS another... Then that will be the Proof all the athiests have been looking for..."<P>I'm not an atheist, and I'm also not extremely religious, but I don't believe we were meant to hop from person-to-person all of our lives. A life-time commitment should mean something. I'm having a very hard time believing that anything like real love exists between men and women except in rare cases.<P>"I waited 27 YEARS for this one..."<BR>I waited 26.<P>"I cant in my human thinking imagine TWO..."<BR>Me either. And if I could, it would be false. Real love doesn't fade away when someone new comes along. You'll see many examples of people on this website who are practically giddy about dating again. I seriously question the bond (or lack of it) that they had with their spouses when they can so easily go out and find a replacement. <P>Hang in there. I know it is lonely.

TS: <P>In your last post, you responded to a quote as follows:<P>"I cant in my human thinking imagine TWO..."<BR>Me either. And if I could, it would be false. Real love doesn't fade away when someone new comes along. You'll see many examples of people on this website who are practically giddy about dating again. I seriously question the bond (or lack of it) that they had with their spouses when they can so easily go out and find a replacement. <P>To that I say:<P>You don't need to seriously question the bond. For many of us, there never truly was one and that is the reason some of us may be excited about the prospects of starting over because our first marriage was such a disaster. We are posting here for guidance on what to do this time around in order to possibly find someone we can bond with. It's just as important to us to find someone we can be close with for possibly a lifetime as it is for you to possibly stay alone forever (LOL). Each choice is ok. Everyone is different in what they want and need in life.<P>

I have to also say that there comes a point, no matter what the bond was before...whether strong and true, or seriously compromised from the beginning, when one of the spouses chooses to break the bond, other choices can be made. <BR>For you, TS, your choice was to become celibate and not give another go at marriage. I applaud you for you choice. It is right for you. But for others, it may not be. <BR>Had my x wanted to remain married, I would have. I would have wanted to put the time and effort into making our marriage strong and lasting. Maybe I didn't do enough before. But my commitment in STAYING married was there. My H did not have that same commitment. He strayed. We didnot/could not work it out. I felt I did my best. <BR>But for me, and I believe others, our choice is to try again, with someone else. I liked being married, I liked the companionship and love. I want it again someday. I like all the other sex brings to my life. I will take my time, I will work on my self, but I want that again in my life. <BR>After closing such a painful chapter in my life, and divorce is a very painful chapter, if some of us sound giddy, so be it. It is good to feel that kind of happiness again.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Susan