I wanted so badly for my marriage to work. I would have done almost anything. But nothing I could do could save it. x wasn't even willing to admit any great faults. He said all his love for me had died. He was not emotionally available for me. He wasn't there anyway except financially. To this day he remains abusive in his attitude toward me - and we have to see each other for child exchanges three days a week. He told me he had decided he didn't want to get married but he didn't know how to tell me before the wedding so he waited for 17 years and two children.<P>So, why am I giddy about moving on? I deserve better. I am in better emotional health than I have been in in years. And one of these days, there will be someone who loves me - flaws and all.

Thanks Sue for your reply. You summed up my thoughts so well.<P>TS: I want you to know that I was committed to my marriage. I was married for 13 years and went to counseling religiously for the last 2 years with or without my X. I desperately wanted to turn things around. We have two beautiful girls. I wanted them to grow up with parents that loved and showed affection for each other. I was hoping counseling would help us figure out what we were doing wrong so we could fix it. Believe me, I gave it all I had. If you talked to anyone who knows me, they will tell you that. I did not leave my marriage. My husband did. I would still be married if my X hadn't walked out that door for a 20 year old. Even knowing that, I told him I still wanted to stay together. That I was willing to change, I begged and pleaded, and he was just cold as ice and would have nothing to do with me. I think you should feel free to say what is on your mind but just remember that you don't know our full stories and what we have all truly been through. I was upset with what you said about the people who are "giddy" about dating again and the implication that we didn't take our marriages seriously. That is so far from the truth for me. I just thought you should know that.

I don't need to know every detail of someone's stories to know this:<P>If you are divorced then your spouses didn't love you, or you didn't love them, or perhaps neither one of you loved each other. <P>I do understand that it only takes one person to get a divorce and for many people, it is not their choice. In that case there is no other option but to go on with your life, in whatever way you choose. Some will date/marry again, some will not. The fact that someone chooses to date/marry again is not my real gripe.<P>What I don't understand is when people who claim to love their spouse have such an EASY TIME moving onto someone new. Even "giddy" about being with someone new. I have no doubt that many wished to remain married to your spouse, but if it is so easy to be with someone else, I DO have doubts that your reasons for wanting to stay married has anything to do with real love. It has more to do with having someone around to do stuff with, having reliable sex, someone to give you children,etc. That is the basic reason why your marriages failed. Either you, or your spouse, or both of you looked at marriage as kind of a roommate-with-benefits deal. <P>Ok, nothing sooo terrible about that I guess. However, these things can be supplied by just about anybody. So, I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised that finding a replacement is a relatively easy task. If you are looking for the feeling of love, you will have very little problems finding that, just like your ex's did when they left for the OW/OM. <P>I'm celibate because I consider my ex and what we had to be very unique and irreplaceable. My ex did not feel the same way. He, like some of you, had no trouble moving on and finding someone new. His next relationship(s) will fail just as quickly as his so-called love feeling fades. It may take a year, or 5 yrs, or 10 yrs, but it will happen, because he believes that love is about feelings and needs, not commitment. This is probably the reason why arranged marriages last longer than marriages based on "love" feelings. They have no illusions about what marriage is. No doubt, alot of them do develop loving feelings eventually, but their expectations for marriage are much different.<BR> <BR>Like my ex, I'm sure I could find someone who makes me feel good. That's easy. But that is not love. When people (betrayed or not) find it easy to go find someone new, it just further confirms my belief that most relationships between men and women have little to do with real love. This is why I choose not to waste my time with what most people consider a "relationship". I can find people (in my case, men) who make me feel good without pretending that anything like real love is present, and I can find people who make me feel good without sacrificing anything of real value to me. <P>I feel differently about my friends and family. Unlike "romantic" relationships (which are entirely conditional and transient), I DO believe that these relationships are based in what I consider to be real love. I have friends that I've had for twice as long (over 20 yrs) as the duration of both of my marriages combined (10 yrs). <P>Do whatever makes you feel good and what makes your life worth living. It is your life. However, if you happen to be one of the people who look forward to dating after a divorce, please don't tell me it has anything to do with love, or that you really loved your spouse. Real love has nothing to do with having needs met, although it does make it alot easier and even fun.<P>"It is clear that there may be a self-serving quality in this tendency to confuse love with the feeling of love; it is easy and not at all unpleasant to find evidence of love in one's feelings. It may be difficult and painful to search for evidence of love in one's actions. But because true love is an act of will that often transcends ephemeral feelings of love, it is correct to say, "Love is as love does." Love and nonlove, as good and evil, are objective and not purely subjective phenomena."--M.Scott Peck, from "The Road Less Travelled."<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited July 21, 2000).]

TS,<P>My views obviously differ froms yours, because I feel love, especially for most people, friend or spouse, is conditional. <BR>If your friends of 20 yrs did not make you feel good, did not meet your needs, you would fall out of your feelings for them, just as your x did for you. If they did not do things that met some of your needs, as in keeping contact, avoiding saying cruel things to you, ignoring you, etc, you would not view them as much of a friend anymore. But you and your friends have a commitment to want to remain friends, so you avoid thoses things. <P>I truly believe the only unconditional love is between children and parents. As adults, we form our relationships, whether good or bad. Commitment is a huge part of that. <P>But to say that we did not truly love our spouses is dead wrong. I came into my marriage with the hope and desire it would last a lifetime. Perhaps he and I both came short in meeting each others needs. It happens at times in all marriages. I had 17 yrs of commitment. But, due to his actions, and maybe mine as well, I fell out of love for him. And he with me. <BR>I want that again in my life someday. I will work on myself, and hope that I can share it oneday with someone else. <BR>But please, do not question the motives of many of us here or the love and commitment we had in our previous marriage. We came to this site because we had the commitment, the desire to save our marriages. Now we want to use what we have learned here to strengthen any other relationship we may choose to have. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

Sue,<P>I wrote a bunch of stuff earlier, but decided to say just a few things.<P>Although it is true that most people are uncapable of unconditional love, it is still a worthy goal. Many people cannot even offer their children unconditional love (i.e. I won't love you if you are gay, or if you don't go to college, or if you die your hair blue). <P>If you really believe that marriage is not ideally unconditional, then I'm afraid your odds are not good. Next time you get married, you should skip the 'for better or worse', and 'till death do us part' stuff. Some have proposed 'till love lasts'. I'd suggest 'until it doesn't feel good anymore', or 'as long as you meet my needs'. <P>I'm not trying to be flippant. Honestly, this is the reason, IMO, that over half of all marriages fail. Most people get married thinking that divorce is an option if things aren't going their way every day. If one or both feel that way, then it is pretty much doomed from the start. Might as well make out the pre-nup and pick out your divorce lawyer the same time they are filling out the marriage license and picking out a wedding dress.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited July 21, 2000).]

You answered it, TS.....<P>Ideally, love perhaps should be unconditional. But the reality is that it is not. People marry, with that ideal in mind for the most part. I do not believe most people marry with the intent in their head that"Well, if he does not meet my needs, I am outta here." We believe that both of us want the same things, we want a lifetime with this person, we want to share both good and bad. We believe that this person will be trusting, will avoid hurting us, etc. <P>But, as in any relationship, things happen. Perhaps we take each other for granted, but the reality remains that when we do not meet each others needs, the love will die. You may say that for you, your friends are unconditional to you, but if they lied to you, betrayed your trust, treated you badlyfor a period of time, you would question your friendship with them. It may take a while, but you would begin to look at them in a different light. Now, that is not to say, if they reversed their actions, said they were sorry and asked your forgiveness, you would not welcome them back, but if it happened time after time, you would eventually not want them for friends. <BR>Marriage is much the same way. We vow to love and protect, but unless that is happening, the love will die. <BR>What I question, TS, is why you feel that because we did not succeed the first time, why we should not be open to another relationship and use the new skills we have learned to make the new relationship better? <P>Again, I say, most of us here would want to/ have tried to remain married and make it work. If our spouses have moved on, why not us? It may be your decision, and that is a good one for you. But do not chastise the rest of us. <BR><P>------------------<BR>Susan

Sue,<P>I believe most people don't go into marriage with unconditional love as the ideal. They go into it thinking "this person makes me feel good". When they stop feeling good, then the marriage is over. If marriage is only about meeting needs, I want nothing to do with it. Maybe the real truth is that Americans are incredibly spoiled and have needs that are unrealistic and not conducive to a life-time relationship in many cases. They go into marriage thinking that wonderful giddy feeling will last forever. They think that marriage means never being hurt, or disappointed, or even betrayed. When so many people just "need" a new car every few years, "need" a DVD player,washer/dryer, dishwasher, private school for the kids, and a new 2500 sq. ft. home (or larger) in order to be happy, it is not surprising that going out and finding someone new is an attractive option when they get a little bummed out about life. I'm not trying to pick on you specifically. What I am arguing about is our replaceable society, exemplified by the speed with which some people here go out and find someone new after a divorce.<P>There is a famous quote that goes something like "don't ever take away a man's dream. It may be all he has". If being remarried is your dream, then who am I to take it away from you?<P>711,<BR>"It's just as important to us to find someone we can be close with for possibly a lifetime as it is for you to possibly stay alone forever (LOL)."<P>I don't know why you put the LOL at the end of your sentence. Being celibate does not mean I am alone. I'm less "alone" now in many ways than I ever was when I was married. Maybe being alone to you means not sharing someone's bed (?). I could share my bed with a 100 men, and I'd still be "alone". Especially with the conditional and transient way so many people approach their relationships. I've gotten to know men a whole lot quicker by NOT sharing their bed. Some of my men friends tell me things they don't tell the women they are sleeping with, and why not? They have nothing to lose by talking to me. I'm no threat to their girlfriends/wives either, because I will never have sex with them. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited July 21, 2000).]

I believe that love is unconditional. Otherwise, it is not love. It may be any of a number of other things, but it is not love. <P>People do not leave long-term marriages because they no longer love their spouse. They may be depressed, they may be addicted to the OP, they may have self-esteem issues, they may be convinced that their spouse does not love them, etc. But real love does not die.

Nellie1,<P>I couldn't agree with you more!! I hope your day-to-day life is getting easier to manage. We find a way to cope, and adjust to the circumstances as they are, I guess. <P>You are so fortunate to have your children. I know you are going through a hard time. I wish I knew some way to make things easier for you. But you know, I have alot of faith that you and your children will make it through this time very successfully. I know, your ex is making it much harder than it has to be. No matter. You will succeed nonetheless.

Again I say, love ideally is unconditional. but especially in the beginning of a marriage, it can't be. Because we have not weathered any of the storms in a marriage. Because we do marry at first for those reasons you say. We enjoy that giddy feeling,and the person does a lot of work in meeting our needs. We we do them as well. <BR> <BR>After a long period of time, if we continue to meet those needs, if we are still connected to this person, unconditional love may then grow. But too often someone, one or both, in a marriage begins taking the other for granted. They become, in Dr. H terms, "a taker". I believe it happens to a certain degree with either spouse. Then one will step out of the marriage, and the relationship can be headed for divorce.<BR>Can we forgive, try again?? Certainly, and that is what I feel many of us did here.<P> But if one wants out, as your H did and my H did, then we have two choices. Wait, see if they change and come back (that usually means we have to change, too, otherwise they would have not left) or go on with our lives, still doing the changing I explained above. <P>I am better equipped now to be the wife I should have been then. I have learned from this experience. I have offered it to my X on many occasions. He did not want me back. And, for me, a relationship with another person of that closeness is important. I am a professional woman, financially independant, and my kids are almost grown. If I was alone the rest of my life, I would be fine. But just as you feel your life is enriched by your friends, I feel my life is enriched by the kind of bond that exists between man and woman. <BR>For you, you have chosen, at least at this point not to pursue it. I still sense a lot of pain in some of your posts. I believe there are many men out there who share my belief. I believe there are many men who would cherish a relationship knowing now what not cherishing it cost them. And many are not just looking for sex, but for a ife time of commitment with a person.<BR>Just because we are divorced does not mean we are "damaged goods". It can mean we have grown up, have learned, and want a loving relationship in our lives. Amd are willing to do what it takes to have it. <P><P>------------------<BR>Susan

TheStudent,<P>Thank you for your encouragement. Unfortunately, just when I didn't think it could get worse, my H lost his job and has been unable to find another. Now, on top of the emotional devastation, is the financial. <P>

Wow, I've been gone for a while and look what this has become. I don't know what handbook y'all got this unconditional baloney from. Did that come with the rulebook? I must have missed that somehow.<P>I know a lot of people are finding life very hard right now. (Nellie, I'm especially sad for your situation and pray God will take care of you and your family. Your predicament is heartbreaking and I know so many wish they knew how to help.) I wish life was perfect for everyone. I wish love was perfect, but only God's is, so maybe we all just search in vane right from the beginning anyway.<P>I believe there are 3 conditions for love, and this is in my view, of course, which I certainly don't expect to have everyone agree with. Reciprocation, mutual respect and honesty. So if you don't have those, then what do you have exactly I'd like to know? You have battered women going back for more because they "love" the jerk. You have women turning a blind eye to a spouse molesting their own children, for love's sake. You have people suffering all forms of abuse because of their unconditional true love. Bulletin: if it ain't coming back to you the same way you're putting it out, you don't have love...period, true or otherwise.<P>Call me giddy. I don't care. I'm skipping around the room giddily. The natural response for a human being on planet earth is to want to be in a loving relationship, not celibacy. Nobody has rheemed TS out for that, and rightfully so because who cares. That's what she wants to do; she doesn't need to defend herself. Neither should it have to be defended by people who have the natural human response to hope to find love again someday - because right now so many of us want to remember that it was and is still possible. We are all aware that we may never find it. Dah! There probably are only a small percentage of people who have really found it. But what a gift from God if you do and I love gifts and I especially love a treasure hunt. Ok, ok, that's kinda simplistic, but I agree with Sue. You learn and have to keep going and hope you've learned enough to make it. I totally agree with TS too on the point that people in our society have such a disposable mentality. How many have a "fight" with a family member and then end up not speaking for years! It's terrible, but I'm just as guilty and have made a real decision to mend all the fences I can and not let them go up again with everyone I know. That doesn't change the fact that my H left and isn't coming back. I won't pine after a person who has more respect for his inanimate jeep than for me.<P>Whatever. I look forward to dating (when I'm ready, which I'm not yet but would be if I could find Greg - but that's another story). I'm smiling, I'm happy. I'm giddy, giddy, giddy, giddy ... come on now, TS, Nellie, Sue, Cindy, Honey, 711, whoever else, skip with me around my room. La, la, la, la, la.<P>Is it getting hot in here?

On the other hand, my STBX returned my boys this afternoon and I spent the morning not smiling, not skipping, not happy, but crying my eyes out and missing him. (Hence, I'm not ready to date). Until, that is, my boys told me that "daddy said" this and that about me, and I came back into reality about who he really is and not the guy he had me fooled to believe in.

Well hey, I'll bite.<P>I believe love is conditional, it must be returned. That doesn't mean I will stop caring for my ex-husband, I always will. But I had to turn off the man/woman love - or I would die. But it is like a drippy faucet. Can't shut it off completely, but time does help... I will always have the "what ifs" in my mind. And, on a certain level my ex will always care for me, but we were a mismatch - not because of our different personalities, that really did make our relationship sizzle - but our basic standards of conduct, that deep down moral compass was way off between us. We were raised so differently, that we could never see eye to eye on issues which are important. It takes more than love to make a good marriage. I look objectively at us now, and no wonder it turned out like it did. Knowing now, how he was raised, and how I was raised - it had very little chance of working. <P>I agree with TS that there are too many people out there that treat marriage like dating. You are supposed to weed them out BEFORE you get married. <P>But I also look at some of the things TS wrote, and think she has much more to overcome than failed marriages. I can understand completely, why she feels as she does, and is doing what she is doing.<P>In contrast, my past contains no hurt, I took things for granted, that I think SHOULD be normal, but are not. Things like:<P>Parents who remained romantic, and kind and caring to each other to this day. They never yelled at each other, and worked to ease the burden of the other. They are devoted to each other, and always have been. One time, when I was crying about the ex, my father told me, "you know, I would never try to make your mother cry." And it was true. There was never an adversarial moment between them, they cared more for the other than for him/herself.<P>Family and church as the central focus of growing up. Our vacations were visiting relatives. I saw my relatives, spread all over the country, more often than many of my friends with family in the same town. I am close to my siblings, and my aunts/uncles/cousins.<P>Education, honesty and strong work ethic as normal. It was expected that you work hard, and you get an education, that you never lie or cheat. I didn't really rebel, I didn't fit in the one-night stand sexuality of the seventies. I just didn't do it, because if was wrong. I was never exposed to the seamy side of life, nor did I search it out.<P>In many ways, the seemingly sheltered life I led, made me naive.<P>But I'm not so naive anymore. I loved a man who could not sustain a relationship - a man who could never get past the initial "good" feelings, who could not develop a deep love, because the devotion to himself, outweighed any desire to please another, or responsibility to anyone else - wife or children. But while we were both "in love" I was never happier. I want that happiness again, but with someone who feels as I do, knows the love will grow and change over the years. That, to me, is normal.<P>And I don't believe there is only one man out there for me. Circumstances create different opportunities. I think it takes years to develop true deep trusting love - I wish I had picked the right man the first time, and that all this was moot, but I didn't.<P>I took my faith for granted before. I knew I believed, but it wasn't until a crisis, that my faith was tested, and without that faith, I wouldn't have made it. Nor would I have such an optimistic outlook for my future. I also see that those who truly heal from the pain of loss (whether divorce, or death, or illness - whatever) are those who are comfortable with their faith, and accept all God has to offer.<BR> <BR>

weirded out,<P>Hi, I am joining back in to the thread now. I wasn't able to read all the way through each post past the first 10 I started on.<P>I have had a few rough weeks myself and I am just getting back to having some time to reply again. <P>I just want to say that I only read the last page of this as I am stepping back in.I do agree with Sue's outlook on the whole topic. <P>I also can see where TS would feel the way she does. <P>Truth is, we all have been hurt in the same way, but in many different ways. Whats good for one of us may not feel good to another.<P>I am starting to debate on my views a little today myself. I am questioning a lot of things that I believe in myself these days. <P>I can't help but think that the life is about falling love, getting married, having kids, and living with your spouse for the rest of your life. AND LOVING THEM UNCONDITIONALLY! I suppose my fairy tale got screwed up 5 years ago, the first time around, but yet, I can't help but believe that there's more to life than all this pain and suffering. I also can't help but think that at 27, that I have a long life ahead of me to discover this but at the same time, I suppose I live every day like its my last. Does that make sense? Or am I just babbling today?<P>Prayers and hugs, Dana<P><BR>

To all,<BR>Loving unconditionally does not mean you are a doormat. When someone fully and honestly does care about the well being of another (emotionally, spiritually, and physically), they do not exempt the other from the consequences of their actions. Neither does God, by the way.<P>Wierded out,<P>you said: "The natural response for a human being on planet earth is to want to be in a loving relationship, not celibacy."<P>Having a loving relationship has absolutely NOTHING to do with sex. I'd like to see you convince me that the Pope is not a loving person and has no loving relationships with those around him. I'm certainly not the Pope, but I'm pretty tired of hearing that you have to be screwing somebody in order feel love or be loved. You are right about it not being "natural", but lots of things we do are not natural. Our natural instincts are to have sex with everything that passes our fancy (because that would be the best for genetic purposes), but we have all kind of reasons for not doing that. I've never told anyone that they should be celibate. I would never recommend it for most people. In my case, extreme circumstances call for extreme solutions. Be that as it may, most people can learn a thing or two from being abstinent for awhile. Kinda like Ramidan, or when people fast for awhile, or even Lent. It tends to put you in touch with things at a different level. I personally don't want to feel like I'm just gonna die if I don't happen to be dating someone or having sex. And now I don't. I've also become aware of the sad, stupid, desperate things people do to avoid being without a man/woman in their life.<P>I've also never said that people who divorce should never remarry. The way they go about it is what I tend to take exception to, though.

Weirded Out,<P>Hey! I'm skipping giddily around the room with you!!!!! <P>Mitzi

Sue,<P>I have always thought your posts were short and to the point, and well grounded.<P>I think that your last post is dead on <BR>correct, and full of self improvement and<BR>learning. We can never stop learning, and<BR>we learn the most from our failures.<P>I echo everything you said, and appreciate when you do take the time to post. I can certainly understand that if you "fired" your husband, he would probably never want to come back. I learned that I can't be a workaholic and have a marriage that survives. However, I also am now on guard for needy, not well grounded, unrealistic women.<P>I missed out on the dating scene from age 12 onwards. I need to learn alot, and have done so with MB.<P>anyway, i appreciate your thoughtful posts when you do post.<P>take care.<P>thl<BR>

Ya got me wrong TS - <P>I actually agree with you. I'm not actually talking about sex with dating. I just want to be treated nicely and with care again, and to have some fun again. I just see a lot of people here seem to feel they need to defend themselves for doing what I consider to be normal and I just think your meaning has been misinterpreted - but I think I get you. I enjoy reading your thoughts.<P>Honey - you couldn't have said any more plainer - you are me, I swear.<P>Mitzi - you're just nuts anyway, but cool.<P>-----<BR>Kathy

Wierded Out:<P>I'm dancing with you too.<P>TS:<P>I said LOL because I thought that was used to mean "no offense intended". Maybe that isn't what it means. I still haven't figured out all these initials. <P>I think a lot of what you say makes sense. You had said something in an earlier post:<P>"I DO have doubts that your reasons for wanting to stay married has anything to do with real love. It has more to do with having someone around to do stuff with, having reliable sex, someone to give you children,etc. That is the basic reason why your marriages failed. Either you, or your spouse, or both of you looked at marriage as kind of a roommate-with-benefits deal. <P>I'm not sure that I went into my marriage with the above in mind but that is where it ended up. I would much rather have had the "real love" that you talk about. So, how do I find that? Do you now think it is impossible to find it in the opposite sex? Should we all just give up on marriage? I am not ready to do that just because I failed before. This is where I follow Sue's train of thought.<P><BR>