To all who will listen,<BR>This is Beth's H and for the last few weeks I have been unable to see my kids because they r always too busy or to sick. On the 4TH of July I asked my kids(well I talked to the answering machine) if they would come over and have dinner with me. Now I know Beth got the message but I don't know if the kids did or not. Now when ever I call over to the house to see whats up with the kids all I get is a busy signal or the answering machine. Then no one returns my calls. Seems my mom is having the same problem. Is this part of plan B also to keep the kids from me, cause if it is my lawyer is just going to love it. Is this part of plan B to use the kids as pawns???<BR>H <BR>

I do not really know your or your wife's story. I do know that all the children suffer greatly when their parents are in the midst of separation/divorce.<P>I do know that the children need to have a relationship with both their mother and father (if no abuse is involved) and both parents need to put the needs of the children in this respect above their own emotions which I personally know become very intense.<P>Plan B should not involve limitations or intefere with existing visitation agreements.<P>This does not mean that your wife should contact you to facilitate anything. It should be up to you to call your wife and leave an unemotional and non judgemental message that you would like to speak/see your children and give times and dates. <P>Beth knows the schedule of the children...the <BR>arrangements should go through her as she (I would think) no matter how old the children are (if minors) "manages" (i.e.knows what they are doing and with whom) their day to day activities.<P>My stbx never understood (and still does not) that the children have a social life independently of both mom and dad,and should not have to drop everything and RUN whenever dad gets a whim to see them.<P>Before you contact your lawyer to actively get involved confrontationally, perhaps you could try to contact Beth...telephonically,by e-mail or write her a note...... and let her know what the problem is and what you want.<P>

I think your kids are also old enough to make some of their own deciecions. Maybe they are having a hard time with your choices and do not want to meet OW yet. This all happened very quickly that you left their home and moved in with OW and her child. They need some time to adjust. I know one of them is seeing a counseler. Have you talked to the counseler to see how to best handle him? Plan B means Beth wants you to talk to her through a 3rd party, did she set up someone for you to communicate through?<P>Glad you are lurking here, welcome. Maybe you could get your own screen name and talk to us some more.<BR>Lora<P><p>[This message has been edited by Lora (edited July 10, 2000).]

Hi Beth's H,<BR> Plan B has nothing to do with the kids.If Beth has it set up for a third party to relay messages regarding issues with the kids, I would suggest that you talk to that individual about getting your kids for any visitation.It's very difficult to have contact with your wayward spouse when they are adamant about continuing the affair.Beth is not required to communicate with you regarding anything.She obviously felt it neccesary to set some boundaries for herself so that she could begin healing this upheaval in her life. Do not fault her for that. She is entitled to heal and move on just as you are entitled to do as you choose.Most likely she has arranged for a third party to do the communicating about the kids for her.Please correct me if I am wrong.<P>As an aside,when my H and I were separated,my kids(ages 13S,9S and 6D at the time)did not want to go to visit their dad where he was living. They were respectful to him but refused to stay with him.They would have had to give up a lot(why should they have to accomodate their lives when they didn't have any say in the change that came about in their lives)and tolerate many inconvienences to go with their dad on the weekend.They did not see why they should have to do this and refused.Did this bother my H,of course it did. I must say I honestly hurt to see the kids disappoint and hurt their father in this way. Could he have made them go? Yes, he could have but what would he have accomplished?<P>Instead of battling the kids or me over this issue,my H realized many things.He had given his kids a bitter pill to swallow.You cannot expect kids to just accept the incredible changes in a family when one parent chooses to leave.Society tries to tell us over and over that the kids will adjust and be fine,that it is better for them to live separately with parents that are divorced than to live with married parents who are at each other's throats all the time.I think both situations are bad for the kids,one is not any better than the other.All three of my kids went through a major upheaval when dad moved out(he was gone 2 months). You might think 2 months is not very long,but it was the trust their dad had broken that effected them so deeply. My H and I have been back together now since Dec and my youngest is just now starting to feel like she can really rely on her dad again.It is so sad, to see that this mess affected her as much as it affected me. You must understand this.You must come down to your children's levels and see this through their eyes. If it is hard for kids to go to spend a weekend with a dad who is living alone,how much more difficult is it for kids to go spend time with a dad who already has a replacement for their mother.I intend absolutely no disrespect here,but you are asking them to accept an awful lot, awfully quickly.Contact that third person to get your kids.It is harder on them to see the pain resurface in their mother if you try to circumnavigate that third party who was set up as a way for Beth to limit her pain and allow herself to regain some equilibrium in her life.<P>Please, whatever you do,do not assume your kids are being kept from you purposely. Do not let them see you fight with their mother over them.Keep this between you and your W.If you have to, send Beth a certified letter to clarify how and when visitation is to be accomplished.Once you have your kids,ask them each privately how they FEEL. Do not pass any judgement on them for having feelings which may ultimately be hurtful to you. There are many ways to solve this problem to the benefit of all without having an attorney get involved.God bless you ,Beth and your precious children.Good luck and don't hesitate to come and "talk" with us some more.

Hi, BethN's H!<P>It's so very sad that kids have to suffer so very much when a marriage is in trouble.<P>You've already gotten the answer to your first question: Plan B should NOT restrict the time you spend with your kids.<P>Now, I'll speak to you and hopefully BethN on a personal note.<P>My marriage to Robert is not my first. Kristin's father and I were divorced when she was very young. I've been there, done that with the custody and visitation stuff. Thankfully, though her father in many ways was not cooperative and I had some resentment as well, we realized that none of that could show as far as Kristin was concerned. Especially during this trying time, she needed to know that we both loved her very much and that, where SHE was concerned, we were working together for her best interests. When hurt feelings are involved, it's sometimes tough to do this. I am proud to say that we succeeded and worked together VERY well to ease the pain for our daughter. And even with that, she still suffered a great deal. They do NOT "bounce back" and things haunt them for a very long time.<P>Part of our agreement:<P>This was not for US, but for her - SHE deserved it. BOTH parents' love, support and time are very important to her and we would rearrange our schedules, be together and SIT together at special events (friendly and polite - even though they were not our feelings at the time!) No one else, even when we were both dating (later on) would join us during that time.<P>Nothing would take priority over the time set aside for him to spend with her (she lived with me.) Nothing - no exceptions. And that time, whether with me or with him, would be shared with no one else. Nope, doesn't matter that, in time, someone else became part of our lives...there was plenty of time for that...right then, our daughter needed to know she was #1. <P>He would discuss with me and we would agree well ahead of time about "special occasions". OK, he had her every other weekend. But Father's Day fell on MY weekend - of COURSE I swapped with him! She SHOULD be with her father on that day. When I planned b-day parties for her here at the house with her friends, HE WAS INVITED. He is her father. And we laughed and talked and behaved ourselves like parents who were happy for their child.<P>Neither of us would ever say one unkind word about the other, discuss our "grown-up" problems, nothing. Mommy and Daddy had troubles that had nothing to do with her and we could not live together. That did not change the fact that we both loved her very much. Besides, we needed to remember that she was PART of Mommy AND Daddy - for either of us to say the other was "bad" was condemning a part of her as well (you have to remember, children think differently).<P>We even made sure, for as many years as he was interested, that her dad and his parents were invited over on Christmas morning to be there when she discovered her "Santa" and shared breakfast with us. This continued long after Robert and I were married - actually until last year when her dad's schedule didn't permit it anymore (he lives 6 hours away and yes, he traveled THAT far to be with her on that day.) We both realized that she was more comfortable at home on Christmas and he was more than willing to join US than to uproot her for his own benefit. I welcomed him. Actually it grew to be very enjoyable for all concerned.<P>Yes, shortly after we separated he became very involved with someone else and felt he would spend the rest of his life with her (not the reasons for the separation, btw). No, he did not force the issue with Kristin. The children have loyalties to BOTH parents. Introducing someone else into the equation is putting undo pressure on them at a time when they don't need any more. If they DON'T like the person, they feel disloyal to the parent that does. If they DO, they feel disloyal to the other parent. Either way, they feel as if they are having to share that parent's attentions. It's not fair. The guilt and conflicting emotions can be over-whelming. They already have enough to deal with. The same was true when Robert and I began seeing each other. Our relationship was very serious before I talked to her dad and we BOTH decided it was ok for her to spend time with Robert and me. <P>Sick was a different issue. Little ones like to be with their primary caretaker (usually, but not always mom) when they're sick. So, I would let him know if she was sick when they were to be together. And he'd come over and visit with her each day of the weekend, read, color, whatever as she rested and I'd leave them alone. <P>Now...here's the toughy. As she got older (she's 16) she did begin to have more of a life of her own. Friends to visit, parties coming up and WE HAD TO BECOME MORE FLEXIBLE. These things are every bit as important as they get older as being with us. Besides, why make a child miss something they were looking forward to 'cause time with Mommy or Daddy is scheduled? Yeah, now THAT'S gonna make them feel great about spending time with us!! so we let her make the decisions about what to do and when to re-schedule. She liked that. It wasn't such a big deal.<P>Hope some of this helps you guys. Please, I know I talk too much, but so many times I've heard from estranged spouses "I want, I deserve, I won't LET, I don't approve, they're MY kids, too....etc." You know, as far as your own life is concerned, you have every right to make those decisions. But, Kristin's dad and I discovered that what each of us WANTED in the midst of our hard feelings was just a bunch of crap. What we REALLY wanted was what was best for our daughter. And that meant putting our stupid egos aside and doing that. We were loving parents who worked together BEFORE we split, and with the problems kids have AFTER a split, we damned well better be the same then!<P>I haven't checked, and I don't know if you insist on having them with the OW around. I hope not. That's not fair. Of course it's not fair to Beth, but that doesn't really matter. (Sorry, Beth, Honey, but it doesn't...you're not the issue here.) It's not fair to your kids. And it has absolutely nothing to do with morals....you have to make your own decisions regarding morality. They are not living with you and they should not have to share the time they spend with you right now, during this difficult time in their lives, with ANYONE! Not during visitation, not during special occasions or special events in their lives - not at all. It's too hard on them. I hope that's not what you're asking. Not even for overnighters, sports, nothing. It's not fair to them. There will be plenty of time for that later on.<P>Please guys, I know you both love your children more than anything in the world - both of you do. You'd give your life for them in a heartbeat. Spending time with each of you is for THEM....not for you. Think hard about what's best for them, no matter how much you are both hurting. And what's best for them are two loving parents, together or apart, working together to make this trauma as easy as possible.<P>OK, I'll shut up now. Good luck to you. I know how hard this is on both of you. But, you know what, it's a whole lot harder on them and it's up to you to help them through it.<P>Love and prayers for you and the kids,<P>Lori<P> <P>

<BR>BethN's H,<P>Please do not assume that the worst is in progress. There could be many explanations why you're currently enduring "radio silence," and intentional visitation interference is only one of them. Set aside your anger (and I know its there) for a minute, okay?<P>Remember, there's plenty of time and plenty of money to force the issue via the courts. But why spend that time and money if writing a simple letter would have the same effect? Ask for an explanation why you're not hearing answers, and ask to work out a timetable for visitation. Btw, I also agree with the others - shoving the OW down their throats isn't acceptable. The kids need time with you, alone. If you can promise them that, my guess is that they will be much more likely to want to see you.<P>Bystander

I can't speak for you, your wife or your circumstances but I can speak from personal experience.<P>My STBX left me (and our sons) for OM. While my boys are only 6 and 5 and while I have NEVER told them their mother left the family to pursue adultry, they are aware of the fact that their mother left them too. Trust me, I've tried to "sugar coat" it but kids are smarter and more perceptive than we give them credit for.<P>When their mother calls, she'll either get my answering machine or a busy signal if I'm online. I will ask my boys if they want to talk to their mother and 9 out of 10 times they will not want to. So, I don't call back and they don't ask to call her. They do ask to call their grandparents so they know how a phone works. On occasion, despite caller-ID, I'll pickup the phone, hold it out in front and ask the boys if they want to talk to their mother. They will say "No" and this way she can hear directly what is their desire. <P>Perhaps, your W is making every effort to make sure your kids hear your messages. Maybe not. I guess you'll find out soon enough. If you're trying to introduce them to your OW, I would suggest that you defer that as long as possible. Personally, I do not want my boys in the presence of a guy with the morals of an alley cat. You'll have to ask yourself what you want your kids exposed to.

i think you ought to wake up. your kids are old enough to decide if they want to see you and your wife would not stand in the way of that. think about what you have taken away from them- you expect them to forgive you in such a short time? you think that they want to meet the so called "woman" that caused their mother so much pain and turned their own lives upside down? you expect them to be excited to meet her? how dare you!!!! think about what you are asking for and try placing the blame where it belongs- on yourself. you put yourself in this situation.<BR>the threat about the lawyer should not phase bethn in the least. that is your attempt to get her to force visitation. i wouldnt want to see you either, if i was them. what a sorry role model you are

Ok, I'm back again for someone elses opinions . Ex has visitation per the divorce decree that says "at reasonable times and places" He works evenings and so does OW,(now wife) they get home somewhere between 2:30 and 3:00 am. He gets the kids every other weekend and one day each week so the kids can see him about every 3-4 days (the visitation schedule was my idea because he was sporadic in seeing them. Well, he was suppose to come at 10am but wouldn't show til 11 or noon , well because of my work schedule and a friend who helps me out. I asked him to be here between 8:15 and 8:30 , my friend she works nights and gets off and watches the kids until he gets here because I have to be to work by 7 am. Well, he frequently is and hour or more late. Today I told him it was his responsibility , the same as reporting to work on time to be here to pick the girls up on time, in the future if he wasn't here within 15 minutes past time then other arrangements for the kids would be made and his visitation would have to wait until next scheduled day. He notified me in writing that in the future he wishes to pick up the kids at 4am on weekdays of visitation and 2:30 am on Fridays of his weekend. Am I being bias or what, I don't want my kids to be up at that time of night nor do I feel it unreasonable for him to be here 1 day a week on a little less sleep to spend some time with his kids. During the week he brings them home by 2pm and on the weekend 8:30 pm on sunday. What do all of you do with visitation times??

Our girls never wanted to talk to their dad. I was always getting in trouble because my then husband would call his attorney and make a big stink. That just pushed them away from their dad further. He would always tell the girls 8&10....that he was going to call his attorney and get their mom in trouble. Sometimes I would actually beg them to talk to him. They knew how I was getting in trouble...but they still refused.<P>Advice from an 8 & 10 year old.<P>Don't be late.<P>Don't introduce or talk about OP<P>Don't sit on the phone while they sit and watch tv<P>Spend time with them without talking about OP, the divorce, lawyers.....or most of all their mom.<P>No matter how you feel about their mom, find something positive in your children that reminds you of their mom and tell them. EX: your eyes are beautiful, just like your moms....or....your so pretty, you look just like your mom.<P>Don't talk on the car phone while driving around endlessly waiting for their mom to get home.<P>Pick your battles......don't get mad at them if they are angry......or do something out of the ordinary.<P>When you call and they say they don't want to talk to you....tell them you are sorry to hear that because you miss them so much and you can't wait to see them or talk to them again.<P>Don't pressure 20 minute conversations on the phone.<P>Allow them to have outside interests that may interupt your plans. (Custodial parents do it constantly) <P>Don't spank them, hurt them, lecture them or anything else that will give them a reason to not want to come again.<P>There are more.......this list goes on and on<P>nancy

Mentals advice is very good -<P>CBS - a 4am pickup sounds spiteful and very unreasonable to me.<P>To BethN husband: I certainly don't trust your motives in seeking advice here, but one more thing you better be aware of - your children see that you not only picked some other woman over their mother, you also left them and are choosing to raise another man's child over your own flesh and blood.<P>Not a fun thing to do, go visit your father and see the entire family he picked as better than the one he had. I wouldn't want to go get my nose rubbed in the insult either.<P>They may forgive you someday, but don't expect a warm fuzzy hug that this is ok.

One more thing....just because people tell you you left your family....don't try to "show them" and fight for custody. Don't think that that proves you did not leave them, but just their mom.<P>It only shows selfishness, bitterness and most of all....hate.<P>My girls "hate" their dad for the crap he put us all through. I did not alienate them from their father...he alienated himself with his actions and words.<P><BR>One more thing....don't join one of those fathers rights groups......they teach you how to lie and decieve to win custody....now is that in the best interest of your children.<P>I do not know your story....but if you are living with the other woman...maybe you should move out and "make" it on your own. Think about how your continued actions are hurting your children. Can you put them above yourself....just this once?<P>Nancy