<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sue:<BR><B>On the thread, "Dating, what to look for", we have had a couple of discussions on love and whether it is conditional or unconditonal. I guess I would like to hear everybodys thoughts on this. Check pg 3&4 for a few opinions...any one else want to tackle this??<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Because the English language has only one word for the many facets of love, we have to use other words to qualify the word love. In Greek there are four words for love:agape (unconditional), phileo(brotherly), starge (don't know?), eros(erotic, sexual). <P>The one that stands the test of time is unconditional and is exhibited by those who are born of the Spirit. <P><P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

Interesting topic....<P>Steve Harley explained to me what he means by "in love". They are talking about "romantic" love being conditional, the principles they espose are intended to reignite those "in love" feelings. So when the spouce says they "love" you but are not "in love" this is what they are feeling. The reality is that alot of people lose that "romantic"feeling and say F-it it's over. What they fail to see is that with some effort those "romantic" feelings can return. The book <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6030_love.html" TARGET=_blank>"Love Busters"</A> by Dr. Willard Harley, explains in lay-terms how this works. In my situation my STBX decided it wasn't worth it. I did what I could then realised that she isn't comming back. My unconditional became conditional. She killed all "romantic" feelings I had.<P>TheStudent and Nellie, I love you two (in the brotherly fashion) but I think you are both very hard on yourselves. I believe you will get past the bitterness and find someone you can share your lives with. I don't think we were put on this earth to be alone without a mate.<P>As for the wedding vows....well...that is a whole other thread. I think most of us take them very seriously, however, after we have been run through the ringer we tend to devalue them...I know that in my next relationship I will try to keep that "romantic" spark going, and I think with some good communication my partner will too.<P>I am of the opinion that that the only true unconditional love is between God and His sinful children and a mother and her child.<P><BR>Bill<P>------------------<P><BR>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.<p>[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited August 05, 2000).]

Bill,<BR>"I believe you will get past the bitterness and find someone you can share your lives with."<P>I would like to get past the bitterness, because it does make my day-to-day life harder than it needs to be. However, the term -share my life with someone-- well, it is not bitterness that makes me say "I don't think so". It is blatantly obvious that most people don't have what it takes to make a life-time commitment. The ones that do are still married. The reason why most people (i.e. most Americans, mainly) ditch when those romantic feelings fade is because our expectations of marriage are completely unrealistic. We also happen to be incredibly spoiled, as a culture. Try as hard as you might, Bill, you are going to make mistakes in the next marriage too. That is just how it is. It is human nature. We are not perfect. I truly hope you don't find another spouse who ditches as soon as they don't "feel like it" anymore.<P>Romantic love is not love. It is hormones. It is only when "romantic" love fades, does one find out if "true love" really exists. Romantic love makes marriages easier and even fun. I'm all for trying to keep romance in a marriage, but that is not what keeps marriages together, IMO. In both of cases, my ex's did not love me. I wasted 10 yrs of my energy on two men who were not capable of loving me in return. That makes me very, very sad. <P>"...love is the will to extend oneself for the purpose of nurturing one's own and another's spiritual growth. Genuine love is volitional rather than emotional. The person who truly loves does so because of a decision to love. This person has made a commitment to be loving whether or not the loving feeling is present. If it is, so much the better; but if it isn't, the commitment to love, the will to love, still stands and is still exercised." <P>I don't want another relationship. I will never again invest myself to the level I did with my marriages. Basically, I have made a decision not to "love" another man in the sense I have described above. Oh sure. There is no doubt I will have those warm fuzzy feelings for someone again, but I won't act on them because I have chosen not to love in that way anymore. Oh well. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited August 06, 2000).]

TheStudent,<P>You are correct about the romantic love being hormones and true love being whats underneath it. And I have to agree about our fine culture throwing away the values of sacrifice, commitment and family.<P>I look at my parents and grand parents. They put up with alot of bs for sometimes years but held on to those afformentioned values and found tha romantic love again after the kids were grown. The late generations are so self-centered they just cop out and run.<P>Hang in there sister as I know you are.<P>Bill<P><P>------------------<BR><P>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.

It appears to me that those that believe<BR>in UNCONDITIONAL love are people who will take battering or other physical / emotional abuse from their spouses, and still remain in love with them. It is this fuzzy thinking that keeps people in bad relationships.<P>For those who believe in CONDITIONAL love, one believes that one has enought self respect to be treated a certain way, or one will not stay in a relationship. Those who believe in UNCONDITIONAL love can be delusional, possibly thinking / justifying possible LBing, and then expect to stay in the relationship, without showing any responsibility for your actions.<P>I am working very hard at teaching my 8 yo d about that concept just today. And I am being so hard on her to get her to understand it, but I cannot take her learned verbal <BR>dissent to me with the statements that even when I am an adult, my family will love me no matter what!<P>I explained to her that you have to show love to get love, and if she thinks you can abuse friends and family and then ask them for help, she has more tough love learning to go. If she gives me more crap, in her room she goes, doors closed.<P>WHAT ELSE does this show her? That one needs not take crap from a family member also. It shows her the RESULTS of her bad behavior, and very quickly, she started changing. And I will keep up the learning so that she does not believe that she can LB and still get what she wants.<P>Sorry to break the bubble, but if you expect unconditional love, it allows your TAKER enormous latitudes without any repercussions or responsibilities for your actions.<P>Remember, no one can abuse you without your permission.<P>thl<BR>

WIFTT:<BR>I could write much here about this topic, but suffice to say I think you are mixing apples and oranges. <P>You , IMHO, love your d unconditionally and always will, no matter what (see my previous post), no matter what you say. She can LB over and over, but you will continue to try to teach her the consequences of this negative behaviour....unconditional love means you will not walk away from her....and while you meet out the consequences, at this fragile time, please, please let her know that no matter what, you will always be there for her. You need to explain (as I did to my d) that with behaviour like that, she will not have friends, her brothers might not be there for her, etc etc, but I told her, and promised her, that I would not leave (she knows that her dad not only went off to OW but also from the "kids behaviour"...so she was petrified of being abandoned! She needed to know that no matter what, I would be here for her...and I am, but I also will not accept behaviour which is abusive or unacceptable!!!)<P>It could also be that you d is testing your love for her.....if she behaves in a certain way that you do not like, then maybe you will leave her as you did to mom...(she is too young to understand the situation) but from her point of view...you do not love mom anymore so left....if she behaves in a certain way...and she will test you...she has to test if you will leave her too????<P>Yes, your d must learn that certain behaviour is unacceptable and there are consequences for this, but at the same time, you love her unconditionally and need to demonstrate this. You also need to reinforce that you will always be there for her.<P><BR>I do not believe that a parent (or at least most responsible parents) will ever emotionally detach from a child...i.e. if you behave that way then I will stop loving you!!!! One can and sometimes needs to distance oneself physically/emotionally from an abusive child (and my children can be models at this!!!!),...this is tough love...but it does not negate your love. <P>I know that I have had so much cr@p thrown at me by my kids especially through all this stuff, but I could not walk away emotionally.<BR>I have behaved in a way that makes sense for me, hopefully will allow them to understand the negative effects of abhorrent behaviour . I have distanced myself from one, I will not enable unacceptable behaviour or allow a false sense of entitlement to exist, but I will always keep an eye out for each and every one of my children....and will try to help them to become emotionally healthy, caring human beings....even if it means at a distance.<P> I do not beleive that one can ever disassociate emotionally from a child, and therein is the unconditional love.<P>The bottom line is no matter what they do I always will love them, NO MATTER WHAT. <BR>I do not even have to like who they are, never mind about disliking some of their behaviour.<P>Your d is 8 and your son not as yet 13 so....<BR>BEWARE THE TEENAGE YEARS!!!!!!! <P>Have you been able to find a therapist for them as yet?<P>How is your father????<P>

Prof Org: Haven't seen you in a while, hope you are doing OK.<P>Truth Seeker - ^5 (high 5) <P>OK I'm jumping back in on this topic. Mainly because I didn't get much sleep and I need to keep awake!!!<P>There are a lot of marriages that last until one spouse dies. There are still a good 50% of marriages that DON'T divorce. Too much emphasis is placed on "THE MARRIAGE" in general. Think about your everyday life. Most of us face a new struggle just as soon as we get past the old one. Life is a series of ups and downs. When we go thru a down time, that is the true test of the love within the marriage. <P>I am amazed to say that I actually agree with TS on one point made, romantic love fades and then you get to the real love. <P>However, thats the whole concept of the MB principles to keep the love alive. There are lots of ways after 10 or 20 years of marriage to do romantic things for each other. Men don't realize its those little things that make their women happy. Is that conditional of us? Maybe. Like THL said, we have our limits and expecations of how we want to be treated. I think a lot of us raised our standards after this affair disaster. <P>Too many people do walk out of marriages because they think they found "something better". Or because this new person meets their needs better. Thats a problem within that person and could go back as far as childhood. Not necessarily a problem with marriage or love.<P>I know some people don't want to go on again in love, relationships and marriage. That is a valid choice for many. But I do know A LOT of people who hav remarried and yes they have problems like the rest of us, but its not a result of the marriage, or their relationship, but of life itself. <P>Call me a hopeless romantic or a ball of raging hormones, it won't offend me, but I'm keeping my belief that what happened to me, was meant to be. I thought I was happy but truly I was not. Yet I felt lonely and then I learned the reason for it (his affair). It is a constant struggle to accept the situation, and even face the fact that I am to blame in this situation as much as my ex is. <P>I still think love can be conditional (just as in expecting to have your needs met, something I only recently learned) and unconditional (just as in a way, most of us still love our ex spouse deep down ). <P>Think about the difference of "love" versus "in love". We are "in love" when our conditions are met. When our conditions(needs) go unmet, we don't actually stop loving. We just don't feel "in love" any longer. <P>Maybe it is just that as we are all different people, different experiences , different backgrounds, that some of us were raised differently. Maybe some of us GIVE love conditionally, some GIVE it unconditionally and myself I think I give it both ways. I wonder also if that has to do with how we saw our parents marraige as a child??<P>Dana<P>

Dana,<BR>I lurk from time to time. Doing great! She is beginning to show me more affection with each new day. She is confiding in me when she has problems. She surprised me yesterday by sitting on face (I've been extremely horny lately, think I am going through a second puberty with my hormones in an uproar.)<P><P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

WIFFT,<P>Wilbok said: "you , IMHO, love your d unconditionally and always will, no matter what (see my previous post), no matter what you say. She can LB over and over, but you will continue to try to teach her the consequences of this negative behaviour....unconditional love means you will not walk away from her....and while you meet out the consequences, at this fragile time, please, please let her know that no matter what, you will always be there for her."<P>Putting up with emotional/physical abuse is not love. If you let your d go out and steal cars, and then said "honey, it's ok", that would not be love. Willbok gave a good real-life description of how love is offered when someone does something you don't like or is harmful to themselves or others.

OK folks,<P>I am discussing adult to adult relationships. I consider parent to child<BR>UNCONDITIONAL forever, as I think most people here would. So for most, if not all here,<BR>parent to child is UNCONDITIONAL, and therefore a moot point ot discuss.<P>So, I move to discuss adult to adult relationships, only the oranges, not the apples of my life.<P>thl<BR>

Hmm. That is where we differ. I AM talking about adult-to-adult relationships. If adult man/woman relationships are as conditional as you say, I want no part of it. I would rather live alone than in constant fear of abandonment if I wasn't perfectly meeting whatever friggin' needs they happen to have that day, week, month, year, or decade.<P>Furthermore, I consider relationships with people who have this transactional type of viewpoint to be a complete waste of my time. There is no mutual growth, no real love. Maybe some feel-good h*mp for a few years, then when they have gotten everything they need from you, or get bored, they move on to the next "host" organism.

TS:<BR>I have read many of your posts and understand where you are coming from.<BR>Running away to a "new love" as in the case of infidelity (and I am not referring to you, but my H, Nellie's H and other WS described on this board) without dealing with whatever are the demons which chase one, is what this "conditional" love is. When your spouse turns EVERYTHING you believed in together...values, morals, way of life , parenting, etc. on its ear, then there is so much more to deal with on this topic. I loved my H unconditionally..... as I believed he loved me....until ow ,and all she stood for (in the gutter of life) became "his new mantra"<P>I could have gotten over the affair....that is what unconditional love is...if my H had tried in some way to want the relationship, or if the affair was "only that" but in my case when all was wanted was for me to be a floormat to enable his omnipotence and lose my identity, it could not be.<P>Furthermore I do believe in my marriage vows..but not at my total expense as to who I am...and all I believe in morally and valuewise. I would have to have given all of this up for the "new H" and this I could not do, which is why love in this respect is conditional...I will love you unconditionally, until you make my love for you conditional..to accepting all the new values over which I had no choice.....and so it came to pass....would I ever have thunk it...NO, but there you have it.<P>

Willbok, <P>I feel the same as you. I, too, would have taken my H back, and did, several times. But when he would not give up OW, he as well made my love conditional. I fell out of love for him. Could it have been rekindled?? Of course. Had we been able to work on our issues, and had BOTH committed, we could have worked it out. <P>Student, I understand where you are coming from...but if we do not treat each other with understanding, with a true commitment to be honest and caring with each other, the oportunity for one or the other to stray is strong....does this mean one or the other has given up on the relationship??? NO!!! It is a clear sign to both that they need to work on their relationship. <P>But when one chooses not to, the love the other has will someday die. You answered yourself..if you truly unconditionally love your X, you would take him back, right?? But what if he continued to carry on behind your back, lied to you, and treated you with no respect, would you still want to spend the rest of your life with him?? As strong a woman as I know you are, I cannot see anyone putting up with that in a marriage for very<BR>long and being happy. Your needs would not be met. You would be unhappy and would have to decide if you wanted to live your life that way. <BR>Sorry, I know I am a better person than how my X treated me. I deserve better, and will have better. I gave my X EVERY opportunity to try to save our marriage. It would not have been easy, but I cared about my vows strongly enough to want to try.<P> But I refuse to be his doormat. He owes it to me and the marriage to be honest with me. If he is unhappy in the relationship, he must tell me, not go behind my back with another. He did not, and upon discovery, he still cold not be honest. Well, I take that back, perhap he was. He wanted out. So, he is out. I hope he finds the happiness he was missing with me. But it is a hell of a price to pay for everyone else.....<P>------------------<BR>Susan

Folks, <P>Conditional love does not mean you abandon the relationship if one's spouse makes a mistake, or isn't perfect. Conditional is not black or white, but many shades of gray.<BR>People make mistakes, and people can forgive. However, the conditional part is that the mistake, or the hurt is continued at the expense of the other person. That condition, the continued existance of hurt or mistakes, without regard to the other person's point of view, or feelings, is where the conditions become acceptable or unacceptable.<P>Unconditional to me is interpreted as black or white, it is either there or it isn't. And it is assumed to be there regardless of your LB, emotional abuse or physical abuse.<P>Sorry, I don't buy it. If it was unconditional, a spouse could walk all over you and not file for divorce.<P>gotta go, 8 yo d is up at midnight!<P>thl

Good point WIFTT,<P>I think TS does an excellent job of putting my fears into words. I'm at a point that fear is something I need to walk through. It is hard to ignore her concerns. God knows I have them.<P>Bill

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Unconditional to me is interpreted as black or white, it is either there or it isn't. And it is assumed to be there regardless of your LB, emotional abuse or physical abuse.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I know of several relationships that didn't work because of the LB's, emotional and physical abuse. The person who was on the receiving end of all that bad behavior decided not to live life that way, but the love for the abuser remained years later.<P>It's very possible to still love someone, but for reasons of safety and emotional well-being, you just can't stay with them any longer.<P>The love part is unconditional. But what you are willing to live with is not.<BR>

OK,<P>So if a person is represented by their behavior not just their looks,<BR>then what is it that they loved? Was it an association that they made that they loved?<BR>ie, father figure or mother figure?<BR>Just the physical part?<P>So in the case of the people who left and they still loved the abuser, how would you describe these people? Needy people who loved something because they needed or missed something? Or did they see that as their parenting example as a kid, and emulated it, but couldn't tolerate it?<P>thl

The bad behavior was not the only thing that was shown. In the case of one very good friend of mine, she had been abused growing up and was following a pattern to a certain extent. But she saw something good in her abusive partner. She saw glimpses of a very deep thinker and connected on that level with him. She tolerated the abuse for years because she loved him and saw the good in him, and felt that he could and would someday change. However, he never got the help he needed to stop his bad behavior and she finally got to the point where she couldn't stay with him anymore. They divorced 3 years ago and to this day she says she still loves him. She still feels connected to him. But she will never take him back because she will no longer tolerate the abuse.<p>[This message has been edited by TruthSeeker (edited August 08, 2000).]

Hi all,<BR>I thought more about this today. I believe that I love my ex unconditionally. However, there IS a point I would reach (even with my future children and my animals) beyond which I could not live with them. There are people who, for whatever reason, have completely shut themselves off from any love. They are so wrapped up in their destructiveness that they cause all around them to suffer. There are people who are so narcissistic, that they believe that the world exists to serve their needs, and all the love in the world is a drop in the bucket. They exist to suck others dry, and have little or nothing to offer in return. I think those cases are fairly rare. I can't think of a single person on this forum who blithely gave up their spouse. However, I think most divorces happen because of boredom, laziness, and lack of a certain level of "unconditional love". <P>

TheStudent,<P>I completely agree with you - I do not want to live with the fear of abandonment that necessarily follows if one believes that love is conditional. Of course there are cases, such as abuse, where one wouldn't want to live with someone they love, but that doesn't mean the love disappears.<P>My teenage daughter was commenting tonight on how she couldn't understand why everytime anyone is angry at our 7 year old, she thinks that they don't love her anymore. I have heard the same thing from our 10 and 14 year olds - the 14 year old even admitted that, although he knows I want him to believe that I love him all the time, he doesn't really believe that I love him during the time that I am angry at him. Now that would be carrying conditional love to the extreme, if love came and went minute to minute.