On the thread, "Dating, what to look for", we have had a couple of discussions on love and whether it is conditional or unconditonal. I guess I would like to hear everybodys thoughts on this. Check pg 3&4 for a few opinions...any one else want to tackle this??<P>------------------<BR>Susan

{{{Sue}}}<P>Is it possible love can be conditional and unconditional at the same time??<P>We can love someone in a "conditional" way. Look at how our marriages fell apart. In a way, needs are a condition. When the needs are not met, the door opens for the affair. Those of us that tried plan A, know that in a way, you have to meet all these needs, five of the most important (aren't those conditions) to have a strong marriage.<P>Yet, at the same time, we can love someone unconditionally too. When you first fall in love, its so scary and new but you do love in an unconditional way. Sure that person may not have everything you'd have hoped for (see the post what are you looking for next time around), and hey, we are all only human and no one is perfect. But we CAN fall in love with someone that is perfect to us. <P>Unconditional love is what Christopher and Dana Reeves have. THere is an example of true love unconditionally.<P>Maybe we're just seperating it too much and there is going to be a mix of a little of both.<P>I can say I recently felt I loved conditionally AND unconditionally at the same time. Unfortunately I fell into it to quick and now I wind up being hurt. BUT, once again, I learned a lot and I'll get thru it.<P>Hugs and prayers,Dana<BR>

I think that all love is conditional. The closest one can get is the love of a parent for a child, but even that can be conditional.<P>The litmus test for me is "Is there anything that this person could do that is unforgivable to me?" There will always be something in my mind where that is the case. Even with my children.

I disagree. There is certainly nothing any of my children could possibly do that would make me stop loving them. Even if they were to become serial killers, I would still love them - I probably wouldn't want to live in the same house with them, but I would still love them. And similarly, nothing my H does could make me stop loving him, because the crueler he is, the more I know that that is not the real him, that it is addiction/depression.

I think real love is unconditional. That is how I differentiated my feelings for my wife vs earlier girlfriends. However, you have to make sure that both partners feel the same. Apparantly, She did not and now I am left still loving her but alone. Despite her cruelties and affair. I know I couldnt take her back without serious counseling on her part and as a couple. But yet I would be willing. I loved her and helped her thru her alcoholism and self mutilation. I feel sad for her that she will never understand what unconditional love is, or that she had it in her hands and threw it away.

ALL LOVE IS CONDITIONAL!<P>This doesn't mean that we aren't showing unconditional love, it just means that if the other person turns on us consistently for a long enough period of time, the love will be gone.<P>This can happen with children toward parents, spouse to spouses, but least frequently parent to child.<P>It is the amount and frequency of the hurt in each relationship that determines the end of the love, and since wach situation is different, the amount of hurt required to break the love is different.<P>nothing is absolute, (except death and taxes) and we are all replaceable. <P>thl

Thl, <BR>I tend to see it the same way as you....people make conscious decisions in thier lives, unfortunately we sometimes hurt the ones we love the most. We take each other for granted, stop doing those "little things" that we so freely do in the beginning of a relationship, and one of the parties begins to doubt their feelings for the other. Only when we have met the other persons needs, only when we have made the marriage the complete priority it deserves to be, can we then begin to see that "unconditional" love. And that takes the test of time. <BR>Dana posted about Christopher Reeves and his wife. That could be a showing of unconditional love, I believe. But I am sure that they built their relationship to that point. They did not give the other person any reason to doubt them. <BR>That is the ugly thing about affairs. The trust is broken, you doubt everything about them, and, I believe, even make up excuses for them. While I do think that the beginnings of an affair can be an addiction, there must come a time where the WS must own up to the fact that they are responsible for their own actions. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

I do believe the only irrevocable unconditional love one has is a parent for a child, and (on a different level,) a child has for a parent.<P>Unconditional love to me means that no matter what that person does to you or how they behave in the world, you would love them and continue to fuel that emotional connection we call love.<P>This means that if they physically abuse us, or are serial killers, we would physically distance ourselves from them, we would abhor and condone their behaviour and seek that they accept whatever are the consequences as meted out by society for ther actions, but we would not be able to emotionally detach ourselves from them. No matter what, we would still love them but abhor their behaviour.<P>In a marriage where you came together "in Love" (unlike being born to a parent or giving birth to a child) by being attracted to each other due to a multitude of reasons and accepted the spouse with the faults they had...that you knew about, but when treated with contempt, disrespect and hatred, you (or at least I) can fall out of love in terms of the marriage. How much each person takes in terms of "falling out of love" depends on the individuals and their relationship.<P>After all our spouses or X's had no trouble falling out of love with us.... but I guess no matter what our individual circumstances, most of us (especially with children) will always love some part of the X (i.e. the person they used to be) but love of who the person has become is not someone we can all love. That is why I feel love in a marraige is conditional in most of our cases.<P>This is just my perspective.

If conditional love does not exist and the only real love is unconditional, why are we here trying to save our marriages and following this plan to "Restore love into our marriages?" Wouldn't that then be impossible ? We're here because love is conditional.

GSD, <BR>I tend to agree with you here. Love for spouses is conditional, and renewing that love is hard work, because it means you must meet their needs. Hopefully if you do, they will recriprocate by meeting yours. So many marriages fail because either we do not take the time to meet thoses needs, or possibly don't even know them well, because of poor communication in the marriage. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

Nellie1,<P>I feel exactly the same way as you. <P>To others,<BR>The reason why this website is here (IMHO), is because unconditional love is extremely difficult and maybe impossible for alot of people. Most people don't even make an attempt at it. Other cultures have much different expectations than Americans do about marriage, and that is reflected in our very high divorce rate. I heard an interview this morning on NPR describing America as being a very adolescent culture. We want what we want, when we want it. <P>We invented fast food, huge cars, and disposable everything. It is no surprise that we have such unrealistic expectations of marriage. No one person can possibly meet all of our needs. That is where "unconditional" love and commitment has to be present. Unfortunately, those things are not fun and exciting.<P>One more thing... if we are all replaceable, then there really is no point in marriage. It does say "till death do us part" and "for better or worse", folks. If "worse" to you means you tolerate the toothpaste tube being squeezed at the top instead of the bottom, or "till death do us part" REALLY means "till I don't feel like it anymore", then either change your vows to reflect your true level of commitment or don't bother to get married. Cause it's just messing things up and skewing the statistics for people who really do believe those words. <P>

TS,<P>I think you hit the nail right on the head. Our society no longer wants to work to have it better than our parents. We DEMAND it, we deserves respect whether we have done anything or not and if you don't give it to me, I'll physically harm you.<P>If you don't love me like I want to be loved, I will drop you and find someone else even if we are married, after all I deserve happiness.<P>Bob

I guess I don't hold much meaning for marriage vows,either.For most marriages,they're just a bunch of words.Like Student said,maybe we need to change the vows in this country.<BR> Such as"For better or until something better comes along",or,"Until divorce do we part".<BR> Even our parents didn't have totally unconditional love,but at least they believed in their vows,and stuck together.<P> "When she said"I do",I should of said,"With who?" ~~~~Rodney Dangerfield<P> ~~Murph

Ok, I am getting what you guys are saying...<BR>Here is another perspective. <BR>If marriage is to be forever, and a lot of people are married till death, is it because of a strong conviction to their vows, and regardless of how they are treated in the marriage they will stay, or is it because these people have tuned in to how to keep their marriages happy and are doing the things that Dr. H says will keep the love alive??<BR>Personally, if I cannot be in a relationship where there is trust, affection, a true sharing, I am not sure I want to be there all my life. If I am always wondering if this person loves me, if I was to be beaten, browbeated, ignored, treated like s***, I do not think there is any unconditional love that would make me stay. <BR>It is a matter of mutual respect for each other, and the commitment that makes a good marriage. If we had loving parents, this is what they had. Thay may have had issues, and problems, but they had what it takes to work it out, try to meet the others needs, and go on. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

When divorce happens, any opportunity for change or unconditional love is totally gone and the years spent with that person are completely thrown out the window. My parents have been married for almost 37 years. I know for a fact that many of those years were not loving at all. They separated for awhile, did their own thing for awhile, but divorce was never an option. When they figured out their own personal issues, they came back together in a "true" sense. That was over 15 years ago. They have a marriage that is rock-solid and very happy now. I can't imagine any better way to experience life than with the stability of knowing that another person will be there through all of the trials of life, no matter WHAT they are. How crappy is it to feel like you are always on trial, and being evaluated every day to make sure you are still the "one". How can anyone feel safe that way?

I think Dana is right about this:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Is it possible love can be conditional and unconditional at the same time??<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This reminds me of the whole 'nature vs nurture' idea. Is who we are determined at birth or is it the result of our environment growing up. Scientists are proving over and over again that there is a little of both going on. We have certain traits that are determined at birth via genetics. <P>I think the same concept is probably true with love. There is a certain amount that is unconditional and a certain amount that is conditional. I think they both have to be there for a marriage to be healthy and happy. <BR>

TheStudent,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How crappy is it to feel like you are always on trial, and being evaluated every day to make sure you are still the "one". How can anyone feel safe that way?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is why I can not imagine ever having another relationship, knowing that there is no way to tell if your spouse is one of the few who are capable of unconditional love, or if in fact you are going to be on trial for the rest of your life. I have learned from this experience that with many people it is essential that no matter how badly they treat you, you be infinitely patient, never get upset about anything, never ask for anything, provide complete financial security, and most of all be able to read their minds. Anything less and they feel justified in having an affair and deserting you.

I think adults make love unconditional! Watch kids, they get mad, hurt and come right back having forgotten what happened.<P>They just love us!

Two months before my husband left, he made a huge production (an evening at the beach) to tell me that he had thought about leaving, but then realized that it would be wrong and that the security of knowing that he would never leave was important for me to be able to meet his needs and not be scared. We both needed to feel safe in order to work out our problems. He promised that he would not leave no matter what. <P>I guess he changed his mind.

You're right; the committment to stay together, to honor your love, and to work it out should be unconditional. I would still love my husband if he did something terrible, but I would not be in love with him. The simple fact that we are discussing the conditions under which he fell out of love is proof that love is conditional. The kind of love that sustains marriages, romantic love, is highly conditional. <P>Interesting note and side-bar question: my husband and I had a conversation about this the other day. He said that "our love has always had conditions. For example, I've always wondered why I've been afraid for you to get fat." <BR>WHAT THE HECK DID THAT MEAN?? Any takers?<P>