Brief background. Ex lives 2 miles away. Papers state him having kids every other weekend, 1 nite per week/every other holiday and 2 weeks per mo. in the summer. He's seen them a handful of times in the last 2 yrs. Has not exercised his summer visitation 2 years now. He'll take them a day here or there for a couple of hrs. and that's it. Mostly cuz his girlfriend doesn't want him to have a past, including kids. Anyhow, he did decide he wanted them this past weekend. Picked them up Friday night and planned on dropping them off at the home early this a.m. His gf has two boys our son's age (12) and they get along EXTREMELY well. Son has a blast with them. They went to a cabin this weekend and had a ball! Daughter (almost 8) calls me last night at 10:00. She sounds SO sad. Starts to cry that she misses mommy and wants to come home. Her dad brings her home. She had a great time but she said that one night is enough and she wants her own home/bed. Son was just the opposite. He comes in this morning as I'm leaving for work and goes back to bed. Calls me at work a few minutes later crying and saying "Mom how come I don't live with dad? He does the fun stuff with us. We watched a movie together etc". What the hell? I watch movies with him too. I take him camping and I attend all of his soccer games. I'm there every night for home work, heck I'm involved 100% and good old dad doesn't have the time of day for them but he's perfect. It's like son forgot all of the things that we do together.<P>I know that the lack of interest on their dad's part is what caused this huge emotional set back for both kids. Daughter isn't comfortable in his home because she's hardly there. Son misses the boys that are there and the constant high of fun. I did explain to him that visitation and living with someone are two different things. etc... But he sounded so depressed and it makes me feel like crap. I don't know what to say of him. Part of me feels hurt/angry that he can turn on me like that. I know, he's just a kid but God it hurts so much!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BonnieSept:<BR><B>Brief background. Ex lives 2 miles away. Papers state him having kids every other weekend, 1 nite per week/every other holiday and 2 weeks per mo. in the summer. He's seen them a handful of times in the last 2 yrs. Has not exercised his summer visitation 2 years now. He'll take them a day here or there for a couple of hrs. and that's it. Mostly cuz his girlfriend doesn't want him to have a past, including kids. Anyhow, he did decide he wanted them this past weekend. Picked them up Friday night and planned on dropping them off at the home early this a.m. His gf has two boys our son's age (12) and they get along EXTREMELY well. Son has a blast with them. They went to a cabin this weekend and had a ball! Daughter (almost 8) calls me last night at 10:00. She sounds SO sad. Starts to cry that she misses mommy and wants to come home. Her dad brings her home. She had a great time but she said that one night is enough and she wants her own home/bed. Son was just the opposite. He comes in this morning as I'm leaving for work and goes back to bed. Calls me at work a few minutes later crying and saying "Mom how come I don't live with dad? He does the fun stuff with us. We watched a movie together etc". What the hell? I watch movies with him too. I take him camping and I attend all of his soccer games. I'm there every night for home work, heck I'm involved 100% and good old dad doesn't have the time of day for them but he's perfect. It's like son forgot all of the things that we do together.<P>I know that the lack of interest on their dad's part is what caused this huge emotional set back for both kids. Daughter isn't comfortable in his home because she's hardly there. Son misses the boys that are there and the constant high of fun. I did explain to him that visitation and living with someone are two different things. etc... But he sounded so depressed and it makes me feel like crap. I don't know what to say of him. Part of me feels hurt/angry that he can turn on me like that. I know, he's just a kid but God it hurts so much!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Bonnie, I had the same situation four years ago with my daughter. Daddy went places and had a lot of fun. I didn't go anywhere, but I would think of fun things to do at home because the car wasn't reliable to travel far distances. <P>When my husband left, my daughter wanted to go with him. I didn't try to convince her to stay because I wanted her to see for herself the difference between having fun living with daddy and when he stopped by home from one his affairs.<P>I didn't want to talk her against her father because she would have pushed that much harder against any advice I had to offer about living with her dad.<P>It took about three months for her to see the difference and she wanted to come back home. I think what she wanted more was for her dad and I to get back together.<P>We did, eventually, because we decided we could save our marriage. Some people believe you shouldn't stay in a marriage because of the children. Yet, some children have serious problems later on life because they feel no one considered how they felt about the divorce. <P>On the other hand, some children do just fine, but there are no combination of factors to guarantee the outcome of their emotional well-being. Is this part of the "...for better, for worse?" And if so, does that mean we should tough it out?<P>------------------<BR>Love hurts no one.

Bonnie:<P>You're taking this personally, and it's not really about you.<P>My SIL has 6 kids, 4 from her first husband, and two with current husband. They all were living with her until about 3 years ago. Then the boy wanted to move back with Dad and his girlfriend. So my SIL let him go. His twin sister finally decided that she'd like to try living there too, and she just recently moved in with Dad and bro (and his gf-now-wife).<P>I would suggest that you encourage your ex to try to accomodate your son's wishes for more time with his dad---and perhaps pursue him having custody, if your ex is up to it. Remember, this isn't a fight over who's the best parent---don't make it into one.

Hi Bonnie,<P>have you talked with your exhusband about your son spending more time there? Nothing says it has to be both your kids all the time.<P>From what I see with boys on the cusp and in their early teens, the more time they have with their father the better - that it is a natural and desirable "phase" for the boys to want to be with their fathers.<P>And maybe you can remind me of these words, when my boys get there in a couple years... I know it will come, I just hope my ex keeps "improving" on the visitation front, that it will be an option.<P>

Oh yes I've tried to get the ex to take the kids more. His parents have tried and his siblings have tried. His girlfriend won't allow it so custody with his father(K) would never happen. It's not just his kids, his parents and siblings hardly see him either. They said it's like he's in a cult over there. His girlfriend is mentally unstable so even if he wanted custody the courts wouldn't allow it. The ideal situation for both kids would be a regular schedule that they see their father. A routine. That won't happen because he doesn't want that. He's too busy in his new life. Since they only see him a handful of times per year it's looks like Disney land. Son came home and said that each of her boys had their own computer in their rooms, Play stations, DVD players and the coolest games. I think he feels that if he lived there he'd have all of that stuff and he'd get to see his father. Deep down though I don't think that's really what he wants. If he lived there the boys most likely would argue like other siblings, they wouldn't be best buds. He's extremely close to his sister. We also have a very good relationship and he loves his step father. But, all of that doesn't matter. His dad doesn't want to exercise visitation, let a lone a thought of custody.

I'm so sorry. <P>But you know, what is even harder for me to understand, is your ex's girlfriend. She is a mother, and should be bending over backwards to help ensure a decent relationship between your kids and their father. Do her boys have anything to do with their father? <P>I find this even more distressing than a man off playing the swinging bachelor. A double-whammy for the kids having him play father to someone else's children.

<BR>h.w.,<P>I don't have stats on this, but I think its not at all uncommon to see a second wife want to erase a H's past. Including, but not limited to, wiping out contact with the H's children from a previous marriage. Its very toxic, and if the H ever decides he made a mistake in not spending enough time with his kids, he may very well blame the current wife for the disaster. Not that I think such blaming is fair, but people in marriages don't always treat each other fairly! <P>Bystander

Honeywest, I told you before, she has mental problems, but besides that....she wants him to be a father to her children and have limited time with his own. Her ex lives in another state, is re-married and has children with his second wife. He use to take his boys for the entire summer and all of x-mas break. This time he skipped X-mas break and took them for a week or two this summer. Looks like he doesn't have much time for his kids either. I agree with you, being a mother herself (his gf), you'd think she'd encourage him having a relationship with his kids but Bystander is right, there are a lot of parents out there that "forget" about their first children when they marry again. It starts out with missing a weekend here and there to missing most weekends to hardly seeing them. I think there are others on this board that are experiencing that with their ex.

My H's OW also seems to want to minimize the amount of time my H spends with his kids, and she is a mother also. I will never understand how a woman can do that, but I, too, have read that it is very common. I remember reading about how someone wrote to Ann Landers or Dear Abby and referred to her H's children by his first marriage as his "ex-children"! And it wasn't long ago that someone was posting on this board about how men should put their new wives before their children, and how it was all the first wife's fault if the children objected.<P>When my H first left, he was spending two evenings a week and at least one day each weekend with the children. Now he is down to much less than "minimum" visitation. <P>I do not understand how K could be so nonchalant about suggesting that that BonnieSept's ex-H perhaps have custody of their son. Their children have first lost their father - now K suggests that the children lose each other? Siblings are NOT just random people who happen to live in the same household - the sibling bond is often almost as strong as the mother-child bond. It is beyond cruel to suggest that children be separated from each other, especially after having lost one of their parents. <P>Within a year, two of my children went to college and their father left. The four children remaining at home were devastated not only by the loss of their father but also by their sibling's absence. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited July 24, 2000).]

Nellie:<P>There was nothing "nonchalant" about my suggestion that perhaps (given an appropriate situation) that Bonnie's son live with his father. You say that they've "lost" their father---well, by transferring custody, he'd "find" his father again (assuming that his father was actually willing to do this---which is something that I doubted, given his lack of parenting since the divorce).<P>Again, I've seen this with my SIL's kids---for God's sake, they separated the TWINS!! And the son has done fine at the fathers. And the twin daughter didn't have any problems with brother going, but there was no way in hell that she was moving out three years ago. But now she wants to join him at Dad's, and everyone's in agreement.<P>And guess what---if it doesn't work out, she can always move back. As could the son.<P>You view separating children like you're locking them away in solitary and throwing away the key---it's not the case, and it certainly isn't what I was suggesting. It's pretty obvious that this solution isn't going to work for Bonnie---but it's a reasonable one to consider, especially if both parents have an interest in their children.

{{{{{{{{{{{{Bonnie}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Haven't seen you in a while. Sorry to hear of your dilemma.<P>I have been in a situation similar before. When my kids first started going to daddy and OW's house, daddy felt guilty. SPoiled them tremendously. Went OUT OF HIS WAY to be sure the kids had a great time, so that they would want to come back. Whether it was intentional or for the kids best interest , it was hard because my kids had to struggle with me, not get everything materialistically they wanted, and at dad's it was all fun and games.<P>If I only saw my kids every few weeks, I'd be a blast to be around too. But I get the vomitting in the middle of the night, the illnesses, the boo boos, the disciplining. So I don't get that great image that dad gets. Thats whats called a weekend parent.<P>Try not to take your son's confusion to hard right now.MY middle daughter wanted the same thing many times. Sometimes, it was ex pumping her head (cause she was his favorite of the 3 girls). Other times it was cause she is just confused.<P>Try to be supportive of your son's feelings. I don't remember your relationship with ex h, as far as are you able to talk to him about this? Can he reinforce to son that the best place for now is to be with mom?? I have heard of lots of incidents where son's do opt to go with dad as they get a little older. I don't hear of it as much with girls. <P>I am sure this is mainly due to lack of consistency on dad's part and if dad took them on a much more regular basis and it wasn't totally all fun and games, son would see a new perspective too. <P>Be strong. Don't take it too hard like I did, and sending you a prayer,<BR>Dana<BR>

Dana, thanks so much for your reply. No, I don't talk to my ex at all. The story is extremely long but in a nutshell, he's been a distant and very uninvolved father for a long, long time. It started a couple of years ago when he became extremely involved with his girlfriend. First off, it was I that left the marriage and he hooked up with her a couple of weeks after our seperation. He at that time was struggling with his feelings towards me and that made her extremely uncomfortable. She decided that she'd rather he have no "past" life that could remind him of me. So, she wanted him to stop seeing his kids, his siblings, his friends and his parents. He decided that what she was asking was better then being alone so he went for it. At first it started out as games. Just not showing up to pick the kids up. No phone calls, no nothing. Just two kids crying because daddy didn't show up. When he did show up his girlfriend would sit the kids down and tell them that their mom had called their dad just prior to pick up and told him he COULDN'T come! Their visitations in that home really screwed the kids up and finally the schools and HIS parents got involved. When his mother told his girlfriend that she needed "help", she blew up and started swearing at his mom to the point where his father told my ex that his girlfriend would never be allowed on their property again. His parents tried for along time to talk some sense in him but instead he withdrew from them and his kids entirely for approximately a year. Not even a phone call to his kids. During that year the kids missed their father but also thrived. My son was and is on the A honor roll now. Happy and adjusted spending a lot of time not only with my husband and I, but his grandparents on my side and my ex's side. Then, out of the blue their father called and wanted them "just for the day". They were excited and wanted to see him. He picked them up and took them to the movies (girlfriend and her boys along). Daughter asked dad why he doesn't see them more often and was told by the gf to shut up and to not discuss it. <P>This past weekend was the first entire weekend that their father has taken them in two years. Daughter couldn't take the entire 3 days and came home early because she missed mom. Son is very attached to the gf's two boys (one in his grade at school) and also very drawn to all of the toys that they have and the fun that they had camping this past weekend. I also think deep down he thinks that if he lived with his dad that his dad would have no choice but to see him and spend time with him. I think he also feels that their home is filled with "fun" because that's all he see's on the 3-4 visits per year. Now, IF his dad was very involved and IF his girlfriend wasn't so vandictive, jealous and sick I would have no problem what-so-ever in sharing custody with them. In fact, we built our home 2 miles from them in hopes that it would happen. Children need access to both parents and I think it's especially important that boys have their dad as a role model but what do you do when you have a dad that allows his children to be emotionally abused by his girlfriend and places his children on the bottom of his priority list? I did have a very long talk with son last night and I THINK it helped a lot. I did explain the difference between an involved parent and a Disney Dad. I did try to explain to him that if he lived with the "boys" (her boys) every day that they would argue like siblings and he wouldn't be a guest in their home. He'd have responsibilities like he does in our home. I also explained that although I'm not taking him to movies all of the time or taking them to amusement parks, I AM running them back and forth to their soccer games, helping with home work and showing them my love with affection, not toys. He just burned me out.

Bonnie,<P>I also think that people need to see for themselves what life would be like, with the option of always coming back.<P>Your view or assumptions of what wuold happen, may not be accurate, and may be just wrong, as it is a personal interpretation of the future.<P>Actually, i think it backfires on custody spouses if they hold too tight a lease on the kids, because of the addictive possibilities of random excitement. Living full time shows what the real life would be like.<P>also, Dad may be waking up to reality, and that would be good for the kids.<P>Also, they are not possessions, although we all want to teach our kids about how each of us wants them to turn out, and we teach them to avoid drugs, they also may experiment with drugs, and an experiment with dad is just the same growth experience. Give a time limit, 2 weeks, then discuss it.<P>There is good and bad out in the world, and to see it first hand, is often times a much more learning experience than being lectured too, and just accepting what the interpretation of the situation is.<P>just my opinion,<P> thl<p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited July 25, 2000).]

Bonnie,<P>I dread the day I hear from one of my kids that they want to go and live with their mother. From what I hear, this is very common.<P>Also from what I read and hear, it is good/okay to let them go live with the parent. The key is to make them understand that they will be welcome home.<P>In most cases the other spouse is unwilling to take the kids of any additional length of time.<P>A friend of mine is going thru the very same thing. HE had custody of his kids when they were young. They then wanted to go back to their mother and he gave them back. She immediately moved 500 miles away and the guy had trouble seeing the kids more than weekends.<P>Well, the boys are both grown. Their mother is now divorcing the om she had left the father for and the boys have had it.<P>The oldest son joined the marines and told his dad that he wants to come here for the Holidays. He is also in love with a local girl. My friend is so excited that he wants to buy them a house next to his!(LOL).<P>The other son is iin the service also. HE calls regularly and when my friend asks if he has talked to his mother, he says she is never there and doesn't return the messages.<P>Who do you think in this situation is going to be alone when the are old?<P>So hang in there, don't take it personal.<P>BOB

Thanks Bob. Actually son really didn't say he wanted to live with dad, he just asked why he didn't. I just love those kido's SO much that I can't imagine not being with them. They leave for a weekend and I miss them. How can their dad go months without even calling them? Just don't get it.

K,<P>There IS almost nothing worse than separating siblings. I realized that there are some families where the children were raised to think that their primary relationships should be with their friends rather than their family, but I think that is a horrible idea. <P>I can still remember how miserable I was when my sister moved out 40 years ago, and she was 19 at the time. <P>Just because it apparently worked for your SIL's children doesn't mean that it is a good idea for the vast majority of families. Children need stability. They do not need to be divided like assets. <P>You said that the boy would regain his father. But what about the girl, who now would have neither her father nor her brother? I realize that we are talking hypothetically, since it doesn't appear that it is going to be an issue for Bonnie.