From the Divorcees,<P>What were the two biggest mistakes that you made which contributed to your marriage's demise?<P>I will start:<P>1) Not being able to stick to an agreed upon schedule. <P>We would agree that I would be home at a certain time so that STBX would be able to make her commitments, without the kids. I was not able to consistently fulfill this requirement due to work. I would always take the end of the day phone calls, I would loose track of time at the end of day by trying to solve one more problem at work. Also, I would not be able to say I have to leave by a certain time, in a company where everyone was a workaholic. (it is contagious to a competitive workaholic)<P>2) Not showing daily affection in different ways:<P>such as voluteering to do extra cleaning, extra cooking, extra chores, extra fuel fairy runs, not being available for evening recreational time every day, not having a lovedovey nickname, not knowing W's daily teaching schedule by heart, not looking ahead on the calendar to see what XW has so I can offer help.<P>any other learning experiences?<P>thl<P>

WIFTT:<BR>Now you know "some" of your mistakes, would you have been able or wanted to change, knowing who your wife is?<P>Will this change in future relationships?<P>Use this knowledge to be really there for your kids....it is time to be "super dad" and I do not mean any disrespect or criticism. My son's therapist (1st one) never heard what was being stated by me re stbx's life style and kept expecting the dad to have this new and improved relationship with son. Did not happen as he was too caught up with his ow, blame of me and MLC etc etc etc I could go on.<P>My 2 biggies<BR>1)Not making H accountable and responsible as a parent....enabling him to continue to be the spoilt "little prince" and serving his needs<P>2)Not realizing that his untoward behaviour to me for 10 months prior to d-day (affair 16 months prior to d-day) was due to affair and getting to the bottom of his "stuff" before he was "too far gone" to ever return to the sanity of our marriage.<P>On the other hand..............maybe there is a reason for everything. <P>H is a emotionally crippled man and perhaps this is why the kids are having such a hard time. He is sooooo needy and in the long run maybe we will all be better off and the kids will learn to be emotionally healthy by confronting their father's bizarre and sick behaviour rather than feeding off this narcissistic person who devours all those in his path.

thl,<P>Mistakes made during my first marriage:<P>1.) Getting married to her in the first place.<P>2.) Not taking a stand in the relationship, allowing her to totally control....I developed an indifference towards her and the marriage....spent too much time coaching, hunting and fishing just to avoid having to deal with her every evening.<P>Hang in There!

Hi WIFT,<P>Good idea! <P>1. My first mistake was the same as wilbok.<P><B>Spoiling him WAY too much</B> <P>Doing everything and not holding him to his own responsibilities. Yep, treated him like the prince that he WASN'T.<P><B>Not knowing it was ok for myself to have needs and expect him to meet them. </B><P>Not knowing about the MB principles and enabling him to get away with neglecting me for too many years. He believes that a wife is there to "serve" her husband whenever he asks but that she gets what she gets when he feels like it, and for that she should be greatful for that. Yet as a wife, I believed in "for better or worse" and hung on for the worst of it.<P>WILL THIS AFFECT FUTURE RELATIONSHIPS? Absolutely, a lot of what I've learned here, I already used, and I believe it works. Not only that, I have been trying to demand respect from my exh and not take his garbage any more, and guess what, he treats me better now too!<P>prayers and hugs to all,Dana<P>

Willbok,<P>I coach the sons kids soccer teams, referee any games, s or d, help with difficult homework, take them fishing, sailing, although only less frequently in the last two years. I took the family to Disney, (STBX was hesitant) I did alot for my kids, while my STBX was off on her EMT/teaching day and night, 6 1/2 days per week.<P>What the kids don't see is that I only have 2 weeks vacation, and STBX as a teacher has all summer, 3 weeks in March. STBX was off work from 3pm to 7pm, so the kids see her more during the day, but that is the same with any traditional family.<P>The schedule was for the STBX for her additional volunteer duties on top of regular work, which is teaching 6 days a week, plus night time dorm duty up to two/three times per week, including weekends and sundays.<P>EMT schedule, she wants to be available 100% of the time, 7 days per week, to be able to drop anything and go to an ambulance call.<BR>She wouldn't even turn the radio off if we were at a restaurant in town, just in case.<P>The kids aren't asking for the D, its the W who thinks that I add too much chaos to her schedule (its a control issue when you are trying to do everything!)<P>thl<p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited July 25, 2000).]

By being too "nice." I always gave into my x's demands/wishes. I think she lost respect for me a long time ago because she knew she could get her way anytime she wanted, either by me backing down to avoid a conflict or by her crying. A couple times over the years she told me everybody thought I was "so nice" but that they didn't have to live with me.<P>Being a conflict avoider. I am a "pleaser" type person. I believe x took this as sign of weakness.<P>As a result of these two "faults," I would let x plan everything because everything mattered to her. Plus if I planned it and there was a problem, then it was my fault.<P>An example was I planned a weekend away. I got the room, planned the trip, and even drove. The mistake I made was that I didn't know the hotel was going to be full of kids that weekend, so x was upset that it was so noisy and also the hotel was too far away from where we were going. It was about a 15 min drive plus I was driving. Plus it wasn't at the hotel she wanted to stay at.<P>So the next year, I get reservations at hotel she wants to stay at. The problem that year is that x and d get in a tiff about what/where to eat. I get mad and stop a pizza place. X ends up mad because she can't get a glass of wine there. <P>This is the main reasons I quit making plans. If it wasn't to her satisfaction, then there was He77 to pay. This in turn back fires because she reads it as she has to do everything.<P>That was one if the things she likes about om. He takes charge, he says they are going on a road trip and they just go. OOPs, I guess she forgot about the kids! <P>So I am workiing on the conflict avoidance. I'm not sure what to do about my "niceness."<BR>

1. Not being comfortable enough to let him know I did not like his behavior. I was not vocal enough, I guess, when he would not come home till late, when he drank a lot, when he did not have any pride in our home and help out, when he would make plans that did not include me, etc. I did not communicate enough, because I felt he would think I was nagging. <P>2, Shutting myself off from him. I felt he was not holding up his end, my plate was full, and he was an adult, if he would take some off my plate, I would have room for him. But he didn't. He went somewhere else. <P>MY biggest mistake was not communicating. I just got tired of asking and gave up. I led my own life.<P>------------------<BR>Susan

Oooooh, another fun one.<P>of course, I think I married the wrong man, that if I had married the right one, what I viewed as a tough normal phase (trying to balance two career home with demands of young family) would have been weathered.<P>but, two things I see I should have done better:<P>1. Be more communicative. Don't take for granted that spouse sees how hard you working, knows how tired you are, knows you need help. Don't think your spouse "sees" what you see. Tell that person. Not just the bad stuff. Tell him/her just how much you love them when their touch makes you tingle (isn't that sad, his touch made me tingle to the end)<P>2. If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, its probably a duck. If you all knew, just how STUPID I was, watching the affair between my husband and this teenage BABYSITTER develop, you would "slap me upside the head." I could have gotten rid of her the first inkling I had that there was something "very wrong" between them. But I trusted him, and believed she was a dopey teenager who saw him as a silly old coot. Talk about naive.<P>Next marriage - my priorities are as follows:<BR>1. Children<BR>2. Intimacy with spouse<BR>3. work/house/everything else. This means, no extra hours at work, and a cleaning crew at home - a necessity NOT a luxury. <P>

Bob,<P>Those kind of people have insurmountable problems. My STBX always complained just like that, and she said there is something wrong witht he relationship. No I think there is something wrong with your negotiation skils, and POJA skills.<P>And it is funny, they must not have z certain respect for us that they have for the OM not to complain about being treated the same way.<P>It must be the Aura, the halo around the OM that makes it different. I know in F Pittman's book, a high risk profile for an affair is a High school dating loser. Never experienced the stuff to learn to make a good selectdion. Therefore, when an OM comes along that reminds them of the HS football quarter back, (imagery now,) they swoon at their feet and do whatever to keep the OM happy.<P>I guess we don't have that image in their eyes. and I guess to them, they are not satisfied with what the proposal they originally accepted, especially the non communicative ones.<P>thl

Sue,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>MY biggest mistake was not communicating. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>WARNING OBSERVATION TO FOLLOW WARNING<BR>WARNING NOT TO BE TAKEN PERSONALLY WARNING<P>I notice your posting (writing) style is generally short and directly to the point. no fluff, no long elaboration, just that's the way it is.<P>Is that how you communicated with the XH?<P>just curious, as it is typically alot shorter, very business like, almost dry, as compared to a majority of other posters.<P>just curious<BR>thl<BR>

WIFTT:<BR>(by the way, what does thl stand for?)<P>I am really glad that when you have the time you really are there for your kids. They know priorities and will and probably have figured out that parents need to work, but when they are off work, they do spend time doing the things you mention. I am glad for your kids. From what you write stbx got her priorities mixed up.....and did my stbx.<P>I was a SAHM until youngest at schooll, then went back to teaching part time. Stbx resented this, but I was home to take kids everywhere, homework etc, (traditional role) H resented that I was not drooling at home for some strange reason and told me that I was only working for me (we did not need the money this brought in)<P>So I have always been there for my kids.<BR>Stbx is President of his co., but did not take time off to spend with kids ...preferred to "go shopping, sleep or be with ow". The kids know that he has NEVER been there for them as a parent, but only as a friend...which worked until he really messed up big time and then it was his chance to shine with them, but he missed the boat and dug himself deeper into the hole!<P>By the way I got news that made my day .<BR>Stbx, big shot businessman (who will not pay for kids), has a collection house after him which will affect his credit rating as he tried to play games with house bills, but did not pay one. This will come back to haunt Mr. Prince Perfect and I spoke to the agency, no problem for me as account was in his name only!!!!! Now I pay it it is in my name !!!

1) I almost forgot the most important one - ever choosing to be a SAHM, even though it was only for a few years out of the 18 we had been raising children. I had no idea that not having to worry about money was so important to him that he would have been willing to put the kids back in daycare. Sometimes I envy those people whose H's don't want them to work. <P>2) Ever getting angry, and not being able to keep the kids from ever getting angry. Apparently he never let his parents know when he was angry, and I guess that anger was not acceptable to them, and he equates anger with lack of love. I do not think that even debate or disagreements were acceptable. Of course it was acceptable for him to get angry at other people (other than his parents) or at inanimate objects whenever things weren't going his way. The kids said after he left that we didn't argue more than a "medium" amount, and I made a point of almost never going to bed mad, but that is not enough for him. He apparently wants his relationships with other people, including his kids, to be "civil" 100% of the time - and relationships can be either close or civil - you can't have it both ways all the time. <P><p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited July 25, 2000).]

Honey, YOU GO GIRL!

Willbok<P>thl<P>my personal initials<P>i try not to use my real name, although i did once by mistake.<P>

<BR>"Getting married to her in the first place."<BR> That's good! <P> 1.I was the same as Bob;being too pleasing.<P>I think I spoiled her.I bought things she wanted,built things for her,remodeled the house for her,did things with and for her family.I did most of the yardwork,a lot of the housework,brought her cups of coffee,washed her car,gave her backrubs,etc,all without being asked.She said it wasn't enough. <BR> I guess I was a little too passive,but on the other hand,if I took the upperhand,she called me"controlling".I give up......???<P> <BR> 2.I wasn't romantic,or passionate enough.<BR> <BR>I guess this is a big one with women,right?<BR> Sometimes,I'm too much of a realist,or too practical.Also said I teased her too much.Who? Me?<BR> <BR>She said her BoyToy opened cardoors,pulled out chairs,kissed her passionately in public,told her she was the most beautiful woman in the world,even without her makeup on.He said she was the most special and cherished person on the face of the earth.She told me that now she expected to be treated that way in a relationship.<BR> <BR>So,I guess that was one of my big mistakes.It's amazing what you can learn after 22 years of marriage.<P> ~~Murph

Murph,<P>We have never chatted very much, but I like your sense of humor. Yes, I was very nice in the beginning, but when I got to a very difficult point in my career, i wasn't so genuflective, and asked that she be more independent.<P>I got yelled at AFTER she came home from filling up HER car with gas, because it was night time and there were some creepy looking guys, and I was busy trying to get something to work on my computer at 9 pm sunday night.<BR>and I didn't offer to do it as she was walking out the door telling me where she was going.<P>I got yelled at for conceiving and doing the big jobs around the house, and ignoring the little jobs, but when I asked what she wanted me to do, she said, do whatever needs to be done.<P>I got home, asked if I could help make dinner, and she said, "Don't ask me that, just do something" so the next night I came home, and started the grille because she said we were having steak, and I got yelled at for coming in and taking over.<P>I would be yelled at for being 15 min late because my boss asked me a question, and W wanted to get set up extra early for a party.<P>If i happened to ignore her question in the middle of our son's BBall game, because I was cheering, she asked me if a took a message at home to call someone back who didn't need calling back, and I said no, and then she proceeded to tell me how inconsiderate that was because now she had to go call all the parents, and she didn't want to call someone twice by accident. (and she never called anyone anyway.)<P>She would tell me about her day in exquisite detail, but never ask me about mine, or if she did, and I started on something like money or stocks, she would roll her eyes and start some sarcastic bs.<P>Once she came back from Dunkin donuts, and said the waitress was very rude to her because she asked her for her order and then turned around to fill the coffee machine.<BR>After she got home and told me that, she sat down to eat breakfast, asked me a question and kept on reading the paper. I stopped in mid sentence, no response from her.<P>should I continue? is there a pattern here?<P>She complained because we agreed i would take the kids on my vacation time, and she said that if we stayed at my apartment, that was not vacation (although I was not working, and will have some time with them) and if I did that, it would be morally and spiritually wrong.<P>oh yeah, I forgot about the time she starting yelling at 1 am in the morning because it was snowing out, and the weatherman didn't forecast snow. . . . <P>actually, after I figured out her modus operandi, and started not responding to the usual guilt, yelling and manipulation, she was so frustrated that she quit. and i took her up on the opportunity.<P>thl

THL,<BR> I find most people like my sense of humor,(except Mitz,who says I tease her too much!).<BR> No,actually stbx used to love my teasing,but as she got older she got kinda cranky.I'm trying to remember when that really started?<P> Was your W related to mine?Mine wasn't that bad,but the last few years everything seemed to revolve around her needs,wants,family,brother's family,etc.<BR> <BR>I started to feel like The AfterThought Husband.She became very selfish,expecting everything to go her way.<BR>I almost feel sorry for her next H......almost! <P> It just seemed that she could make digs at me,insult me or my family,tease me,or get mad about something I did wrong,but if I did the same to her,the Holy-He!! [censored] hit the fan!! Break out the divorce lawyers!!<P> I truly believe I did a lot of things most H's don't do in a marriage.Women at work complain that their H's can't set the beer down long enough to take out the garbage!<BR>In some ways,now I just feel like I was her meal-ticket,and errand boy.<P> Maybe we will be better off.Like I told her,if she can do better,GO FOR IT!<BR> Same with your stbx.<BR> Nice talking with you...... <P> ~~Murph<P><BR> <BR>

Thl, <P>Boy can you read me???? Yep, that is how I am. I am pretty direct, say what is on my mind, then on to something else. I don't dwell on it, don't "nag", because to me that is a waster of energy. I did not spend a lot of time repeating the same thing over and over again. If he did not "get it", I would not say anymore, would do it myself, and then (subconsciously) would be resentful. <BR>I am sure this manisfested itself in me shutting him out to a certain extent. I will admit this. It was wrong. <BR>I own my own business. I am pretty direct there as well. But the people I work for respect this in me, and appreciate I am not riding them all the time. But, unlike X, they take care of what they say they will. <BR>No personal affront taken, thl!!! It was a good call on your part!<P>------------------<BR>Susan

Murph, <P>I believe that romance thing is very important for most women. I didn't spen a lot on time thinking about it, but when I started dating, and men opened my door, the man I am seeing now kisses me sweetly, I realize how much I did miss it, and probably did during the marriage. <BR>The writing Dr. H does on affection and sex in his book "HNHN are very good. One of the things I know would have helped my marriage is to know how important I was to him, and one of the ways of showing it is with afffection and romance. <BR>By the way, how is the Seattle weather?? Over here in the Tri Cities it is beautiful!<P>------------------<BR>Susan

Sue,<P>Whew, glad you didn't take offense. Now, on to the real discussion.<P>I am a little bit similar, but also realize that in business, it is hierarchtical, and that approach works great. But I found that with an equality relationship, that doesn't work very well, (I was on the receiving end of the orders, alot of times with no explanation, just do it! I resented it) and when I did the same back, it was resented.<P>And actually, sometimes this is partly from the difference between a traditional, functional household approach and a modern, equality household approach.<P>With a functional house hold approach, each participant does what they do best, whether divided evenly or not. W on the inside, H on the outside is fairly typical.<P>With an equality approach, both share in the jobs, each doing every job at different points, such as sharing the cooking, cleaning, childcare, etc.<P>I find that companies are organized functionally, and the new generation households are organized around equality, partially due to the women's liberation and entry into the workforce (not critical, just an observation).<P>That sets up Hs who are from the functional, traditional households having an internal conflict with an equality approach. One of our conflicts was rooted in that dynamic because I came from a traditional, functional family, and my STBX came from a non tradition, H did cooking and cleaning, non equality, reverse traditional approach.<P>given the little i know about you, there appears there could be an undercurrent of family of origin expectational differences in your past relationship, especially with your husband.<P>arm chair psycho comments?<P>thl