I thought it odd when he said that our 4 year old wakes up wet every morning when she stays with him, when that is a very rare occurrence at home. I had assumed that an adult got up to take care of her as soon as she woke, but that is apparently not the case. Apparently they leave her unsupervised when she wakes up, playing in the OW's 12 year old son's room (who gets banished to a room in the basement if he is there when my kids visit) although I don't know why she doesn't call for someone as soon as she wakes up, like she does at home. <P>He seems to have forgotten everything about our 5 other children's preschool years - he has forgotten that they needed to be "reminded" (ie told) to use the bathroom also. He appears to have forgotten that they were never unsupervised at the age of 4 - as soon as they woke up they were bouncing on our bed. <P>How can he care so little about his children? All he cares about is that they don't annoy the OW. Almost all his interactions with the kids involve his scolding them, telling them that they should be more polite, more cooperative, more something... He comes to pick up a couple of the kids and doesn't even say hi to the other children sitting right there. He happened to catch a glimpse of our 17 year old the other day, who hasn't spoken to him since the day he left 17 months ago, and I looked at his eyes expecting to see - I don't know what, maybe sadness or something - but all I saw was coldness. <P>For 25 years he fooled me into thinking that he loved our children. He doesn't give a d*** about them. He doesn't care if they feel loved. He just wants them to be perfectly behaved little automatons that don't bother the OW or her kids. After he left, for six weeks he visited them here, held the little ones on his lap, read them stories - then he filed for divorce, and I have only rarely seen him show them any affection since, and then it is usually when they initiate it. <P>I should never have believed it when people said that it couldn't last, that among other things the OW would get sick of our kids. Yes, she got sick of them all right, but she seems to have managed to convince their father to largely reject them, or maybe he decided to reject them all by himself. <P>If anyone had told me before I married that in the event your spouse finds someone else, they do, in fact, for all intents and purposes divorce the children as well, that a man who acted like he loved his children and would do anything for them for two decades now acts so harsh and unloving toward them, NO, I would never have married. I would never have allowed children to become so attached to someone who would reject them. It would have been far better for them had they not had a father to begin with. <P>I was watching a movie last night in which an overly strict father finally opened up to his daughter. Everything, every movie, every song about fathers, everything, reminds me of how fathers are supposed to be devoted to their children. <P>I know there are WS's here who rarely see their kids, but is there anyone else here who has only called their kids 3 or 4 times in 17 months? Who keeps cutting back on visitation, generally without any warning to the kids or me? Who tells the kids that he has to work late so he won't be taking them on Fridays for a couple of months, and then continues not to take them on Friday after he gets laid off? And worst of all, who tells them that they can only visit once a month, only two at a time, because they fight too much? Like visiting their father is a privilege, to be withdrawn if their behavior doesn't suit him?<P>Who cares that he had an affair? That is easily forgiveable. That he left is even forgiveable. But how the H*** can he do this to his children? How can he seem to withdraw his love for them, and act as if it is their fault that he doesn't let them visit as often or for as long as they ask him to?

Nellie,<BR>Your H sounds desparate to me, like he is trying to hold on to the kids(doesn't sound like it thought does it), but is afraid he will lose the ow so he will only see them on her terms.<P>I would think that sooner or later, something will have to give. He will either decide that either the kids or the ow are more important and will then give up on the other.<P>I heard or read somewhere that some woman, probably men too, want their new partners to have no past, so they pressure them into forgettig about the x spouse as well as their children. They want a clean slate.<P>This probably doesn't help you, but I will continue to pray for you and your kids.<P>God Bless<P>Bob

Nellie,<P>I am one whose spouse left the kids also. My stbx sees our 3 sons for 2 hours at a time, usually once a month. He may call one other time during the month. <P>He takes them for the 2 hours, brings them home and tells them he'll see them on the weekend. Then they don't hear from him for another month. Sometimes they call him to ask him to come and get them, but he never can. This is a man who asked for standard visitation (Every other weekend, and every wednesday for 3 hours). He doesn't even spend the minimum amount of time with them. <P>I just figure I can't do anything about his relationship with them. One day, he'll want them and they will be the ones to say no.<P>Take care,<BR>Mitzi<BR>

I agree with Mitzi. When he later in life sees what he has thrown away and wants it back, it'll be too late because then they will not want him.<P>I see mine doing this too. He just last week told me he has to travel and didn't know when he'll see the kids next. I found out him and toots are going on a little vacation - last week he told his mom that he wasn't seeing her anymore. I think the kids are getting in the way of her good times and she's pressing him to spend more of that time with her.<P>Anyway, my MIL told me that my H is an exact carbon copy of what his own father did to her. She told me that my H's dad was around for her kids only for a couple years after he left and then they never saw him again. Then he died at 52 from a heart attack. She said that actually made it easier. I know it sounds really terrible and I certainly don't wish it on him or anyone, but sometimes I think it would be easier to handle a death than a divorce. You just keep getting devastated over and over and so do the kids and it's just out of your control. So far I haven't had to deal with OW, haven't even seen her. I don't know what will happen when I do - probably nothing because I already don't care to a certain degree.<P>God bless, keep up your strength. Kathy<p>[This message has been edited by weirded out (edited July 30, 2000).]

Your x sounds very self centered . I don't understand why so many fathers do not feel the same for their children. I suppose it's because he is doing what he feels is best for him at this given moment, and to h... with the rest of the world..<P>I'm sorry for your situation, but I do think all things work with "What goes around , comes around".....so someday, when he can't understand why all the rotton things happen to him........at least you'll understand why.<P>Good luck to you. Things will get better with time.

Bob,<P>I think something will have to give, too, and from the way it is going, he will give up the kids. <P>He has gotten more and more involved in managing their educational/medical care, which he was not terribly involved in when he was at home. I imagine that this is because he sees it as the only way he can stay involved with them. Unfortunately, he has managed to prevent our son from going to the high school of his (son's) choice in the process.<P>Mitzi,<P>My H, in the temporary orders, didn't even bother to ask for standard visitation - just reasonable visitation, whatever that means. <P>I am not convinced at this point that he will ever regret not spending time with them - he will just blame it on them and me. <P>Kathy,<P>Yes, I think death is in many ways so much easier. At least the spouse and kids have good memories. <P>I think that his relationship with the kids in many ways mirrors his father's relationship with him. Although his father remained married to his mother, his father did not appear to have anything approaching a warm, loving relationship with his kids. But for so many years, my H did appear to have that sort of relationship with the kids. <P>mads,<P>Unfortunately, it has been 17 months, and it has not gotten easier. I don't think is has gotten easier for the kids, either.<BR>

Hi Nellie,<P>I know we have touched on this before, my ex was a stranger to the kids for two years - he is better now.<P>My heart breaks thinking of your 4 year old in that situation, maybe he shouldn't take her for awhile til he gets his priorities in better order. I know how you feel there too, I'd get these stories from my kids about things they would do, obviously unsupervised, which could have had horrendous consequences. I just wanted to throttle him, and the only response I would get is "they are fine, nothing happened, that I should 'chill out'." Even now, when he is better about them, things still happen.<P>I have the same "reasonable visiting" in my papers too - he didn't want a schedule put in there, and I didn't push it - as the attorney said, you can't force him to see your children, and under the circumstances, there might my times you may not want him too. You may discover that its better for you this way too.<P>My ex is coming around SLOWLY, he has left the gutter, and is now on the sidewalk...but a long way to go. Sounds like your ex is going to waste alot more time screwing up with his kids before he start making amends.<P>And hi weirded out, my ex has turned into his father too in a way, was estranged from him, hated his father for how he treated his mother, and let him die alone in a hospital bed. You would think they would see, wouldn't you? <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by honey.west (edited July 31, 2000).]

Nellie,<BR>The truth is you and your children will be blamed for the fantasy not turning out EXACTLY as he imagined. Here I mean his relationship with the kids. Therefore someone is to blame and there is nothing you or your children can do.<P>In defense of your H, though, he does not live with the kids on a daily basis (I know this is his choice) and at this point in time clearly has no clue as to the needs of a 4 year old...(he has no clue about any of the children's needs or he would not have acted the way he did)<BR>When he lived with you and the kids, I know you would have parented together, but you probably lead the way in determining their basic needs (?) <BR>He is therefore clueless and ow either does not know or does not care. Perhaps you could e-mail him and express the concern about all this in terms of your child's needs and not your own.<P>This is what they do not understand....that sometimes it is necessary to put aside their own feelings towards the estranged spouse, and put the needs of the child first.<P>Your H is incapable of this at this point in time, if you communicate you need to put all else aside and keep reminding him of this...expressed gently as a way of him continuing to build a "wonderful" (and separate from you) relationship with his children.<P>Perhaps because of his baggage re his father he is "abandoning " his kids before they abandon him! <P>The issue with older son is this control thing again...and in the process he messes up choices for the kids which will not help build a relationship with them in the long run, but I guess there is nothing you can do!<P>A suggestion...since H is unemployed, and very little support from him, can you not get the court to insist that he doesa the childcare for free so that you can go to work! This would give him the daily responsibility etc, etc???<P>I am sure ow would hate this.<BR>Maybe the threat of this would be enough for him to be more financially responsible.<P>You might also suggest to him that since you cannot afford to manage financially, ALL 6 Kids are coming to live with him and ow.....(I know this sickens you , but if you suggest it, I wonder what the response would be?)<P>I am so sorry that your H has treated not only you, but also the children so poorly.<P>I was telling a friend the other day, who told me that the deceitful behaviour of H's affair for 16 months until d-day was beyond understanding considering who H is. I replied that this was not nearly as bad as his behaviour in terms of the children, responsibly and financially afterwards and this will be so much harder for me to ever get my head around!

I know the kids want to spend time with their father, and sometimes the 4 year old gets very upset when he takes some of the other kids and leaves her behind. He has asked me to give him any of her art work that I don't want to keep - like somehow that is a good substitute for actually spending time with her.<P>Interestingly, after many years of having little interaction with his father, my H is now visiting his father regularly. <P>willbok,<P>I always was in charge of making arrangements for the kids, doctors' appointments, etc., but my H used to be capable of taking care of them. We often used to discuss how we both wished he could quit and stay home with them, while doing something part-time from home perhaps, if I could have earned enough to support us. I wish he would take care of them while I worked. It would be the best thing for them, and probably even for him.

Nellie, I really understand your concerns regarding your children. My H also was a devoted father who definately knew how to take care of a 4 year old and her "potty" needs....he is also completely unaware now.<P>Like your H, my H is depressed. It is so tragic that they will not do anything about it. My H is in counseling but up until 2 months ago, did not think it imp to tell his counselor that he sleeps about 4 hours a night uninterrupted, and takes prilosec around the clock for GI upset.<P>Everyone (family, colleagues will tell him he is depressed....and he refuses to see it...just gets into the "i'm unhappy (will not say depressed) and need to change my life...into a antimaterialism lifestyle" which apparently means giving up THE most important things (kids)!! Of course OP is filling his head thinking she is the answer.<P>My H started seeing the kids more, but is still unaware of what they need and treats them like they should be automatons, and he doesn't even live with OP (and this was an EA up until at least last month). So, I think it has more to do with the depression.<P>My H says he doesn't want a relationship with op, they are just very close coworkers....and he still treats his kids this way.. If anyone questions him (meaning others, because I have not) he just says "the kids are fine".... When our eldest 11 started counseling he said "well, she probably needs it anyway"!!!!<P>Now our S will go...I'm not even discussing it with H...he just doesn't care!! He can't!! He is in self-preservation mode.<P>As for me.... I am redirecting my degree so that I can have some sort of marketability. And I am selling this house and much of the "things" and really scaling down. My H could very well move this poverty thing into leaving society and becoming a missionary...at which point I'm in big financial trouble. <P>I just can't picture my H going too much further without hitting bottom...He looks that way now anyway...and he has lost so much with regards to his friends, family and colleagues..... I'm just not going to take the blame for him...I will do whatever it takes to keep myself and the kids afloat...<P>Do you ever read much on the Divorse-busters site regarding MLC??? Seems lots of MLC can last a few years (meaning more than the 2 harley mentions).... They do more often than not return to closer to themselves person.... Of course by then, so much damage has been done.... It really makes you question the meaning of life, doesn't it???

tootrusting,<P>Yes, I do sometimes read the MLC board over at divorcebusting.com. I worry that if my H ever comes out of this, it will be too late for the kids, who need the love and support of a father NOW. <P>My H cares very much about their medical care, their education - he just isn't willing to spend much actual time with them, or exert much effort to really know them. He has told them that he "can't" spend any more time with them than he does, without explanation.<P>Yes it does make one question the meaning of life, if you can't trust anyone.

I am the OW so I will tell you what happens with my H and his kids. His children are 3 and 4. When he and his ex seperated HE was the primary caregiver. The EW has sole custody of the kids now.<BR>His ex has made it very difficult for him to continue to interact with the kids. He does not know where the children live or who the ex lives with. I KNOW how children of this age should behave. In some ways his children are doing okay, but in othere ways they are awful. For example his kids are VERY disrespectful of adults. When he was there their behavior was different. My H, like your H, has unrealistic expectations of the kids, like sit down and be quiet. My H is frustrated with the situation. You do tend to forget how things work when you are not exposed to them on a regular basis.<BR>Unfortunately there is little that you can do about him not "caring" about the kids. But realize that he and the children are going through something horrible. I know that my H loves his kids, but he feels like he has done them and himself a great injustice by allowing them to live with their mother. But you have to KNOW that if he is continuing to exercise his visitation then he does care about your children. Now that my H is divorced he has said that he does not feel like he is their father anymore because it is not the same. He does not get the same feeling when he does the same things for the children. <BR>Also my parents were divorced when I was a teen. My mom will still to this day say what you have said. But she has no idea what goes on with my father and I. She tells me that my dad never did anything for me, but she did not start to work until I was in middle school , so who took care of my financial needs? My dad gave me money to help me when I was in college. I nevere told my mom that. She says that my dad is so unfair to us. But I speak to my dad several times a week now, just as much as I talk to my mom. She has no idea that my dad cares about ALL of his children and personally I don't feel like it has anything to do with her. I love both of my parents. What I am saying is that you may feel one way, but your husband may feel another way. It is okay to feel how you want to feel, but just don't say bad things about the dad in front of the child. It hurts. I am 24 and it still hurts me. If you love your child she has all that she needs.

KD,<P>You are an example of a certain kind of OW I see so often - the clueless childless one. Not a judgement (but one can easily be made), an observation - and actually kind of an excuse to explain why you could knowingly participate in the destruction of innocents.<P>When I was in my 20s, and single, and working, I didn't "get it" either.<P>It won't be until you have children, that you will understand. If you have children with this man who walked away from his babies, you will understand. You will understand why your mother says the things she does, and you will feel that little tinge of panic, when you understand the incredible selfishness it takes to walk away from children. But your vanity will say, but gee, I am different, no, he wouldn't do that to ME!!!! He loves me!!!! He never really loved her. He will love THESE children!!! He never really loved THOSE children... you poor thing.<P>Perhaps your relationship with this married man makes you feel better about what your father did to you - validating that his happiness was more important than yours - that there was an honorable purpose to justify the havoc he wreaked. That is what it all boils down to.<P>And there is usually a responsible parent left behind, holding the bag, while the wayward spouse pretends its all ok, because now "he/she is happy, that the end justifies the means. <P>The ones you so flippantly accuse of wrecking the parenting relationship of the spouse WHO LEFT THEM for greener pastures.<P>And gee, it is reassuring you know how children that age should behave. <P>This isn't meant to be mean, but I just shake my head - you are 24 and clueless to life, and men, and marriage and children - and have chosen a path with hard lessons ahead of you. <P>

Oh Honey! I was holding out. Thank you!<P>Don't you just love women who insert themselves into the middle of a family, break it up, then defend the creep because it's not the same for him with his children anymore. I suppose it's the kids fault that it's not the same anymore after they were abandoned. I have a clueless, childless one in my life too. What glue do they think they have with him that is stronger than 20 years of marriage (it also used to be "true love"), two kids, assets, dogs, you name it. Must be something pretty special in those panties that makes them think he won't do it to them too. Mine has been cheating the whole 20 years and I'm sure he has told her she's the only one. I hope the OW I have to deal with does have his babies and wastes the next 20 years of her life believing his tired old lies I finally caught on to.<P>---------<BR>Kathy<p>[This message has been edited by weirded out (edited August 01, 2000).]

Excuse me, but I do not remember saying that I came in and broke up and broke up a happy home. Nor do I remember saying that my H left his poor wife with two children. His ex left him because she found someone else. She did not let him see the kids for 8 months. She made him take money and clothes to her parents house. <BR>I do not think that I am clueless about children. Children deserve both parents and like I said I think that it is wrong for a parent to talk badly about the other parent. My mother does that NOW and I am 24. <BR>As for my H, what should he have done? Call the police to find his children, which he did. Nothing can be done about the suffering that his children have gone through thus far, but we have to look foward. he can only do what he is allowed to do for his children. <BR>As for their mom, what she did was wrong and unfair to her children. What my mother did was what she knew to do for her family. I love my mother for that. But, like I said, financially speaking, which is what she means when she says he has done nothing for us, she started working when I was a teenager, so who paid the bills?<BR>I am not trying to raise my H's children so it really does not matter what you say, the things that happen to those children will be HIS and his ex's responsibility.

KD (which by the way are my initials),<P>It seems to me then that you are not the OW - at least not in the way that most of us have had to deal with. I think when someone comes in and says "I'm the OW", some of us have been thru such hell that the hair automatically stands up on the back of our necks!<P>As you've tried to further explain, I think you're also doing the best you can - which is all any of us can do - and I agree with you that she has not handled it well.<P>Sorry for the offense - Kathy

I am sorry that I misunderstood what OW menat. I guess I could call myself the NW. but my post was originally for the mom. What I meant to say to her is why her ex has behaved the way that he has (maybe I should say mine because his behavior is almost the same.) <BR>When you were married to this man, he behaved a certain way toward the children that were yours and his partly because YOU were there to defend you kids. I find myself telling my H it is okay, children do things like wet the bed, but he seems to want to gripe about it. I say to him, did they not do that when you were taking care of them before? Yes, they did, but he is not used to that anymore.<BR>On Father's Day, my H shared with me that he did not feel like a father because he no longer wakes up with then when they are sick and so forth, so what is the use in trying. He felt that his efforts to continue to be in their lives was useless considering that when he has them they are less than behaved anymore and His impact will be less than what he would like. <BR>Which do you think would be better, to have a child who KNOWS their father good and bad or to be clueless? I realize that it is hard raising children, but it really does take TWO parents. Nobody is perfect but if your child's father is doing what he knows to do, don't hurt your child by making him stop.<BR>Again, I will tell you about my family. My father has a mental illness and YES he did leave my family which was best for all involved. But, it hurt him to not be able to see my younger siblings. My dad lives with his family and they were not so welcoming of my younger siblings as you ex's OW is. But, WE all (my siblings and I) needed to spend time with our dad. If he was upset because we did something that was okay because we got to see him. If you can talk to your ex about setting up something where the child is not left alone, 4 is way to young to play unsupervised, and his OW is not offended maybe that can work. But it always has to be something where the child is kept first. Safety is the biggest concern and maybe you can point that out to the OW and ex.

KD,<P>The last thing I want is for my H to see less of the kids. I have NEVER limited his visitation with them. I would give a lot for him to be willing to spend more time with them. I want the kids to have a father, but it seems like the OW is doing her best to limit his interaction with them.<P>Why are you jumping to the conclusion that anyone is criticizing their H's to the kids? <P>BTW, 3 and 4 year olds are not cognitively or emotionally mature enough to be capable of disrespect. <P>A father's job is not just to influence the kids in terms of discipline. Far more important is that they feel loved. <P>I really doubt that it my H who is really bothered by our daughter wetting the bed. He seems desparate to minimize the annoyance to the OW, maybe because he is afraid she will further limit his opportunities to see the kids.<P>Do I really believe that it was his idea to say that it would "not be productive" for both of us to go to educational/medical evaluations of our children, yet he keeps emailing me with things he wants me to say at the evaluation?<p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited August 01, 2000).]