You asked what was wrong...<P>What is wrong is that I know I will never live this down. The more time that goes by, the more I realize this is true. I remember what you've said "Don't close any doors that you don't need to". What you don't understand is that those doors are not open and probably never will be. I'm not just feeling sorry for myself. It just happens to be a fact of life for me now, and it does make me sad. If I had done something unethical in medicine, law, or engineering, I'd lose my license and never be able to practice again. If I had committed a felony, I would not be able to vote or carry a handgun. <P>My only other option is to lie or deal with having this thrown in my face every so often. It scares me how attractive the lying option is starting to appear. I'm at another crossroads, JL. <P>Another thing that is bothering me is that it is finally sinking in how few people are capable of really loving someone (including myself). This whole "his needs, her needs" stuff has nothing to do with love. To me it all seems so mercinary and shallow. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited July 31, 2000).]

TS,<P>You judge humanity very harshly young lady. You cannot rewrite history, (actually you can when you become the Grand Potentate ), but your more recent behavior will tell people more than your past. You have no idea what opportunities will come to you once you are out of school. <P>I know, I know, I am repeating myself, but trust me on this. Your life will be so much different once school is over.<P>It is a long term goal you need to reach. But once you reach it, the weight will be lifted. You will see things differently. I speak from experience as you know. <P>As for marriages, and peoples acceptance of you and your past choices, I will direct you to TA DA, MB. Look at the discussions, how people react to all comers. More and more people understand your type of situation. You have been on both ends of this.<P>TS, just finish your degree and move on with life. You won't have to lie about your past. You have learned from it and you are a better person for it. So please, realize you are a good person with nothing to hide. I will repeat what I told you before. Your past is only of concern to people you are committed to. Other than that, there is nothing you should have to or need to say.<P>So I will tell you again, you don't have to live it down. You just have to live the life you want and in a way that makes your proud. I can assure you that men will be attracted to you and won't be turned off by a focussed, compentent women who knows her strengths and weaknesses. You just have no idea. So don't borrow trouble for yourself.<P>Have a little more faith in humanity. It is full of forgiveness, understanding, and "humans", who have made their own share of mistakes and they know it.<P>Think about it, TS.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<BR>Men are attracted to me now, for whatever reason. When I see it coming, all I can think of is how much I don't want to discuss ANYTHING in my life. I understand that my past is only of concern to people I am committed to. That is why I'm not dating. No dating, no commitment, no pressure to talk about my life. There are times I think about dating again, and when I think about sitting down and having that "getting to know you" kind of chat and having them touch me, thinking "if you only knew me, you wouldn't want to touch me", it makes me cringe. I think about all of the times I'd reach out to my ex, and how many times he'd draw back in disgust. He'd tell me not to touch him, and call me names and tell me how disgusting he thought I was. This happened for so long, JL. I will never, ever go through that again. <P>I can't do this. I just can't. I should go now. Thank you for your time, JL. Maybe those words of yours will break through someday.

TS,<P>None of these men are your exH. They aren't emotionally attached to you and they are not trying to hurt you and they haven't been hurt by you. However, my recommendation is not to date until you are finished with the degree, unless it is casually. <P>You are beating yourself up unnecessarily. I really think you need to go to NSR's postings on forgiveness are read it carefully. You need to learn to forgive yourself, TS. You can still regret what you have done, but you need to realize that you accomplish nothing if you don't forgive yourself. <P>The sad thing is that your exH couldn't forgive you. But that is his loss not yours. I'll also bet that if you two ran into each other now, he would want to be with you, he would want to touch you. I suspect now that it is all over and his anger has subsided, he still has feelings for you.<P>I am not trying to get you back together, what I am pointing out is that he has come to closure on this and so should you.<P>Yes, I do hope that my words finally do have meaning for you. I'd love to be there to say those immortal words, "I told you so." With a hugh grin on my face. I think it will happen some day.<P>Take Care, TS and God Bless,<P>JL

If you don't mind my butting in...<P>I'm sure you're familiar with the story "The Scarlet Letter"? You will be known, not for past mistakes, but for who you are now and who you will become.<P>You made a mistake and learned a great deal from it. JL is right. It is time to start forgiving yourself.

TheStudent,<P>JL and Truthseeker are correct IMHO about what they say. It is understandable that you don't want to deal with ALL the ins and outs thatgo along with a committed relationship, but you don't have to beat yourself up about the past. The past does not equal the future.<P>Let me tell you what a ****ty person I was 4 years ago...<P>I am a recovering drug addict...I was a stone cold junkie that would take you for <B>ALL</B> I could get. When I hit bottom, noone liked me not ven my Mom and Dad. I had lied cheated and stole for so long they were tired of my [censored]. I had so much shame and guilt when the "fog" of active addiction finaly lifted that I didn't think anyone would like me. Oh I forgot to mention that <B>NONE</B> of my friends wanted to even talk to me. Today after 4 years of complete abstinence from substances and having been working a recovery program I have relationships with all those people I screwed over. They genuinly like who I have become. I no longer worry about people finding out I was a junkie, because I am not one today. That was the old Bill, the new Bill doesn't live that way any longer.<P>Anyhoo....my point is I had to eventualy put the bat down and live my life in a new fashion.<P>Remeber you cannot change the past and the past does not equal the future.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR><P>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.

Hi Student,<P>You don't have anything to prove to anyone.<P>You are worthy of love just because you exist and are a person of integrity NOW. I believe you were a person of integrity THEN, as well... you were confused, hurt, in a fog, whatever you want to call it, but you were there. Your choices did not make you a bad person, just a really human person who made some poor choices.<P>You don't have to lie. People will love and accept you for who you are, or they won't. It's their problem, not yours.<P>You continue being the honorable person you are. <P>You are a good spirit.<P>Sheryl

Hi JL,<BR>"he has come to closure on this and so should you."<P>He has come to closure because he never loved me to begin with. He is having no problems dating and finding a new *uck-buddy, because that is all I was to him. <P>I don't want any man to ever touch me again (that way). When I dated briefly after my divorce, all I could think of when he touched me, is WHAT DO YOU WANT! and how it was only a matter of time till he found someone he liked better, like most people. <P>I've got a question though. Why do you think things will be so different after I graduate? I worked as a degreed engineer for many years before I came back for my PhD and know what it is like. I will enjoy being around a little more mature crowd, but other than that, people are more or less the same. The dating thing will be more or less the same. They "like" me not for who I am, but for what I can do for them. The only reason they would like a competent woman like me is NOT because they admire everything I've done to get here, but because being competent means less work for them. They would admire self-confidence, because it means less baggage for them to deal with. Everyone wants a dog who doesn't chew the furniture, pee on the floor, or bark all night. Very few people are willing to spend the time to understand what makes dogs do this and certainly won't spend the time to teach them other ways to behave. <P>Bill,<BR>I congratulate you on all your hard work. My father was a violent alcoholic until I was twenty, and a person I would not want to know. Today, he is the best father I could ever hope for. I know change is possible. <P>NB,<BR>Hi there. Hope things are going well with you. Thanks for the encouragement. All this hand wringing of mine is getting so old. I wish I could find a way to feel better too. Every so often, it just sinks in what it means to spend the rest of my life without a man/woman relationship and I get sad. However, it is still not enough to make me change my mind about being celibate.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited August 01, 2000).]

TS,<P>I'll try to answer your questions. First about the education. Your PhD is the ultimate goal that you have been seeking. You have been willing to move yourself and your exH to new places, give up jobs, everything to attain it. I would have to guess from this data, that this degree is very very important to you. <P>It has been the focus of your life for many years. But it has come at a cost. You have not been able to lead a "normal" life. Differed income, moved to where the school is, cannot have a normal social life, etc.<P>I understand all of this because I broke my education into two sections during the Vietnam period and spent over 4 years in the service. I delayed getting married and in fact once I decided that is what I wanted to do, I refused to entertain the idea of marriage until I finished my education, PhD.<P>I know your life will change, once you achieve this goal, because your focus will change. You will become part of society again. Your job and career will take on importance and you will be out of the very artifical environment of a University. <P>In summary, it isn't everyone else that will change when you finish: it is you that will be changed. <P>Now, none of this will make any difference if all you see in males is interpretted in the worst possible fashion. In fact it would seem from this post you are going through another phase of depression. <P>I will leave you just one thought. Again from extensive experience. Men and women want very much the same things, but the general go about getting these things in a different manner. You arguement that men only want one thing, has a direct anology to what women want. That is why I am confident that you are just down right now. Again getting out of school may well help that.<P>So TS, I am still confident that once you attain your short term goal of receiving your PhD. you will see the world in a different manner, because you will have changed. You will have finished something that has been the focus of your life for years. A new beginning will occur because it must occur.<P>So Hang in there and try to avoid being so down.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>

"Men and women want very much the same things, but the general go about getting these things in a different manner." <P>I know. I only talk about men and dating because I happen to be heterosexual (once upon a time).<P>There is one main lesson I learned from my ex:<P>The appearance of virtue is more important than "honesty". I was completely honest with my ex from day one, and it didn't matter. He made up whatever stories he wanted to believe. Most people do. Everyone has their own agenda and only hear what they choose to hear. Even me. It doesn't really matter what I say about my past (or what I don't say), because people will only believe what they want to believe. So why bother? <P>I'm very sorry, JL. I'm going to do now what I should have done before. This past of mine is going to my grave, one way or the other.

TS,<P>I read your latest post and I am worried for you. I could interpret you last statement several ways and I surely hope I am incorrectly interpreting it now. Don't do anything to harm yourself, there is no need for it. Your past is hardly something to harm yourself over. <P>You were honest with your first H and your second H. You have been remorsefull about your affair, and your were hurt terribly by both H's. You don't need to hide from your past.<P>So please don't do anything to harm yourself. You don't need to hide from anyone either.<P>TS, talk to me please.<P>JL

Student,<P>Just jumping in to offer support, however weak it is here in cyberspace... I agree with JL, what you have written here leaves little room for interpretation... please, please do not do anything to harm yourself. <P>YOU ARE WORTHY... remember that!!<P>Please write something - ANYTHING to let us know you are okay!<P>

Student,<P>You are a good person with a lot to offer. You were honest and that IS a good thing. Your exH had some problems. How he chose to handle the situation was HIS bad decision.<P>As far as what people believe is concerned, what makes you think that they won't WANT to believe what all of us on MB already KNOW? That you are a good person who made a mistake. We have all made mistakes. <P>Just keep being the good person that you already are and people will know you for that. <P>I'm praying that you are OK and that you will see the good that is in you, just as we see it.<P><p>[This message has been edited by TruthSeeker (edited August 02, 2000).]

Hi NB and JL,<P>I'm sorry to have worried you. I didn't realize how cryptic that sounded. What I meant by "what I should have done before" was lie. When I said "it is going to my grave" is that I'm not telling anyone about my life anymore. My second husband taught me that honesty is a weapon. I will not be giving that ammunition to anybody in the future. <P>When Harley tells a "betrayer" to confess, what he is really trying to do is make sure they get the punishment they deserve. When he advises people to be honest about their past, what he is doing is making sure they will be punished and reminded the rest of their life for whatever they have done. <P>

TheStudent,<P>Hey! You had us worried!! <P>I understand what you're saying about being punished. Please know, that not all people will condemn you for the rest of your life. <P>Mitzi

I'm glad to hear you are ok. You did give us all quite a scare.<P>I understand where you are coming from. My x was a betrayer, and although that hurt me very badly, I understand why it happened. Our relationship had deteriorated so much that neither of us showed any love or affection for each other. It was a very sad situation. I wish it hadn't turned out so badly. He was very vulnerable and needy and got into a situation he was not strong enough to walk away from. It happens. It hurts. But we are all human and make mistakes. I don't think any of us can be judgmental of others because until you are truly in another one's shoes, you never know what you will do.<P>I'm so glad to hear you are ok. I guess you can see there are a lot of people who care about you here.

Hey Student,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When Harley tells a "betrayer" to confess, what he is really trying to do is make sure they get the punishment they deserve. When he advises people to be honest about their past, what he is doing is making sure they will be punished and reminded the rest of their life for whatever they have done. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I do take some comfort in the idea that our honesty, painful as it is and was, makes it easier for us to reconstruct our lives. In any way we choose. (Hey K, I finally said it. Honesty was the best way. You didn't have to wait 5 years for me to say it, just one and a half).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Are you having a bipolar month??? <P>It's kinda tough seeing you go through your "down" cycle---being tough on yourself (or the rest of humanity) for no good reason. You remind me of myself after I discovered my wife's affair: I had scads of "cached" chat between her and the OM on all sorts of great topics---how great sex was, how much they loved each other, how my wife never loved me, how we married for all the wrong reasons, how much my kids loved the OM---you get the picture. I revisited those files and read and reread them---ad nauseum. It's like having a giant gash in in your soul and taking a knife to it, to see if it's still open...<P>Stop with the self-torture. Let this heal...<P>You know that Harley doesn't offer the concept of total honest as a perverse way to see betrayers punished over and over. I'm not sure what you're dealing with in your life right now, but one thing that you could consider "total honesty" useful for is a filter to keep "less emotionally developed" men from pursuing a serious relationship with you. It's clear that there will be some population of men that would be put off by your history---but face it, would you really want them? Probably not. And the percentage is certainly not 99.95%; it's probably more like 20-30% (so it's not a very effective filter).<P>Another use of honesty is as a tool, to deepen the relationship. When you expose yourself and your "vulnerability" to someone you care about, it's likely to have the effect of helping this other person open up to you. If you shared this information with someone who you were strongly interested in, and the response was:<P>"Hey---whatdaya want on your pizze???"<P>You might be advised to look elsewhere for long-term commitment.<P>Stop beating yourself up. Certainly do not look at your ex-husbands and say "here are my models for how men act and behave"---you have a data set of two, and they seem to both be negative outliers. Cut yourself some slack---please! And for someone who seemed to be doing so well a couple of weeks ago, you've sunk down pretty quickly. Can you (as the brilliant engineer) identify any factors that have triggered this slide?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My second husband taught me that honesty is a weapon. I will not be giving that ammunition to anybody in the future.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your second husband was a [censored]. You certainly don't want to end up with a third husband who is like that. Honesty can be used as a weapon---but it can also be used as the glue that helps to bind two people together. If you bury your honesty, you won't have a good sense of how your potential partner views honesty---and you certainly want to avoid the 'punishing' type.<P>Wishing you well...

K:<P>Thanks for your message. I thought that was very well said and I feel the same way about honesty. Sometimes, I feel I am too much of an open book but at least everyone knows exactly where I am coming from and can decide if they want to be with me. It does limit the amount of friends I have, but the ones I have are the best.

TS,<P>Do me a favor. Don't be so cryptic again. You really had me worried, because the tenor of your posts had be going down for awhile. That is why I posted to you on the other thread.<P>K, put it together very well. Honesty is a tool for you to use, not run away from. <P>I was going to say something else, but K said it so well, I'll leave it at that.<P>TS, you really had me worried. Take care of yourself and stop obsessing about something that you had no control over, your exH.<P>REALLY GOOD to hear from you. <P>God Bless,<P>JL

<BR>K,<P>Dude! What a post! That puppy is a real keeper. <P>TS,<P>About that filter K mentions, in my experience in talking with friends, they are as a rule open to dating/marrying a betrayer. The two issues that they express, and these make sense to me, is understanding *why* the woman chose to betray (implicit is that they want to see regret for that decision), and a feeling that they would not also be betrayed.<P>You've had this recurrent self-image of being damaged goods, and its just untrue. Stop beating yourself up. Stop it.<P>Bystander