It really doesn't make any difference what you do. You can't predict when you marry some one that they will suffer from depression or become bipolar 10 or 20 years later. Maybe you can if you are a psychiatrist, though I doubt it, but it is a bit unreasonable to expect a layperson to identify a future depressive. <P>And "meeting needs" and lovebusters have very little to do with it. Plenty of marriages last that have little of the former and lots of the latter. The Harley principles may well make marriages more pleasant, but I do not believe that there is much of a correlation between that and whether the marriage survives. The myth that marriages fall apart only after years of strife is just that - a myth. As a matter of fact, from what I have seen, high conflict marriages may have a higher survival rate. <P>Long term marriages commonly fall apart within months after depression hits. The day my H announced that he wanted a divorce, he said he had been feeling that way for weeks, maybe months. It apparently did not seem the least bit unreasonable to him to give up a 19 year marriage and leave six children because of the way he had felt for merely weeks or months. It is impossible to ensure that no depression-triggering event will occur. And men, in particular, who become depressed almost always self-treat with affairs and in many cases leave their families, and then blame it all on the spouse. <P>You can never feel safe. You could be practically perfect, and probably there would still be a fifty-fifty chance that your spouse would cheat on you, and quite possibly leave. There have been people on these boards whose H's have freely admitted that their wives were close to perfect, yet they still left. It is terribly unfair to bring children into the world and allow them to become close to someone who will likely leave them, and then offer visitation to them only as a privilege to be withdrawn if their behavior doesn't meet his expectations. Far better to either adopt or use AI. It is far better to have always only had one parent than to have one parent disappear, either literally or emotionally, from your life. <P>

Nellie1,<BR>Hey girl. You know I'm with you. Alot of people think I am bitter for having these same thoughts. Sometimes I think that those who are out there dating again (and happy about it) just don't bond all that deeply. Therefore, having their marriage end isn't all that disturbing. Just like the spouses who left them.<P>Another thing that cracks me up, is how so many think they know "so much more" now, and how they can make better choices. UM...they thought that when they got married the first time. For some reason, they think that if they just find the "perfect" person, that everything will be great.

Yeah, I don't understand that "make better choices" stuff either. What I have learned is that there is no way of knowing if you made a good choice. I thought I had. For almost 24 years my H gave me absolutely no reason not to trust his fidelity completely. He wasn't as open about his feelings as he could have been, but until he sunk into depression nothing happened that would indicate, even in retrospect, that he might consider cheating.<P>It seems to me that if you eliminate all the alcoholics, drug abusers, narcissists, people who suffer from depression, and those with whom you simply don't have anything in common, there are not very many single men left, and the chance of actually finding one is pretty slim. And that one could easily become depressed ten years down the road and leave you anyway.

Nellie,<BR>I agree mostly with what you say. I will never marry again. Perhaps in the future I will find a companion to spend time with, but I will never "replace" my H. <P>I still believe that no matter what has gone down in my family these past 3 years, I have no regrets that I married and had 4 children. I agree...no marriage is perfect and I know that I was not the perfect wife, as H was not the perfect man, but we did have a good marriage for over 21 years.<P>Having said that, while my children and I have endured incredible pain etc at H's behaviour and choices and I would NEVER have believed that this would have happenend to my family, I do believe that having to chose to marry this man and have children with him, I would do it again...... <P>My children have learnt lessons that I had always hoped to shield them from, but hopefully they will learn to make better choices in their life relationships as spouses and parents when they are grown up.<P>Ideally children need a mother and a father to learn life's lessons from ( children do learn modelled behaviour somewhat...nature vs nurture)<P>The fact that our H's have lost their minds and caused distress for their families does teach us lessons we would perhaps not learn otherwise...very hard lessons,but some things <BR>we have thrust upon ourselves and then we have to make the choices which enable us to continue to live honourable and emotionally healthy lives.<P><BR>

willbok,<P>Unfortunately, the one thing that I have learned from this is that you can't trust anyone, no matter how well you think you know them. <P>As you said<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>children do learn modelled behaviour somewhat..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If this is true, then it seems that what they will learn from the behavior modelled by my H is to make poor choices. They will have learned that running away from your family has few if any negative repercussions for yourself. They will have learned that everything is the fault of someone else - your spouse, even your children.

Nellie,<BR>This is what has been so hard for my 4 children and myself. The behaviour that they have modelled is the manipulation and control which I certainly would not accept from any one of my children and they have had to relearn a lot of all this...which is why my younger 2 are further ahead than the older 2 who are away at school and do not have the "new" consistency to learn from. Before this H (who has always been rather clueless as a parent) mixed in and gave very mixed messages which I beleive made the boundaries so much harder for my kids to understand.<P>Neverhteless, modelled behaviour can be unlearned when a crisis erupts...as it did in my family...and my children are learning how to interact on a much healthier way than ever before. But the road is long..and with adolescents it is an uphill road much of the time anyway!!!!<BR>They have learnt that their father's choices have been so wrong and unacceptable....but he is their father!!!!!

I would NEVER say that I could trust no one, because that would just be setting yourself up to be hurt. I want to look toward the positive, and not so much toward the negative, even if I have little to look toward. We DO make our own happiness, and even if our spouse's choose to leave us for another, we still have our children and ourselves, we CAN create our own happiness.<P>Nellie, I read here, and post little. My husband has cheated on me and I have little ones to look after, but I refuse to give up hope on my life just because my husband chooses to be somewhere else. You seem so despondent about your life, and I would hope that you are getting some type of counsel (other than here). I would also hope that people here would encourage you to seek that help, because you truly need it, you sound as if you have nothing to live for, but you do! Your life is not built upon your husband's horrible choice, even though you have 6 children. You do have the capacity to live life and love life again, you just need to choose that path. <P>I feel horrible for what your husband has put you through, and even more so that you would think to take him back when you're worth so much more than that. I hope you choose to heal from this, because it is possible.

Kayleigh,<P>So there is something wrong with me because I would take my H back? I don't agree. And I don't know why you jumped to the conclusion that I have nothing to live for. I have my six kids to live for. And there is something wrong with me because the man I have loved for a quarter of a century underwent a complete change of personality almost overnight? Because the man who used to be a devoted father now acts like he wants nothing to do with his kids unless they behave perfectly, and even then, only wants to see them briefly and infrequently? Or should I be jumping for joy because the kids and I are living in poverty? Because I do not have enough money to pay the mortgage and buy food, much less anything else, even though my H's income was almost six figures last year, and I have a decent paying part-time job? Or I should be overjoyed because our youngest has a severe language disability, and I am not going to be able to get her the services she needs because I won't be able to take her there, and I will have to settle for not nearly adequate? Should I be happy because I have to put her in daycare, which everyone agrees is not the most appropriate setting for her, even though my H is unemployed, but he won't parent the kids because "finding and paying for childcare is the responsibility of the custodial parent"? Don't tell me that I should just go make my own happiness. And I will NEVER completely trust another adult because THAT is what is setting yourself up for hurt.<P>willbok,<P>Unfortunately, the children do learn that his choices are hurtful to his family, but they are also learning that, according to him, not being able to spend much time with him is all their own fault for not behaving the way he wants them to, and for wanting to call home to say goodnight when they are with him. The older ones are learning that it is all about money, that when money is short, his needs come first.

Nellie, I so admire your feelings.....and that you would take your H back if he came. You are remarkable in this respect and I can understand your reply...there is nothing wrong with you at all. We al make choices in how to deal with this mess, for it is not "simply" an affair. <P>Both your H and mine are so out of touch with everyday reality (as is one son of mine) that we can be and are very angry with the situations our families find themselves in. This is separate to our "love feelings" and this is where I admire your resolve. I am not as understanding, forgiving or loving as you, but again that is my choice. I do think that you are a remarkable person and I hope that you are able to vent the anger at the behaviour which H is using to push his children away and make poor choices. <P>In my case money is also a HUGE issue, but we are very fortunate in that I can keep the children in schools and get them all the help they need without H.<P>Money is a huge control issue..........for both of us in our H's fantasys.<BR>For you H is making sure you cannot provide for the kids, in my case H wants needs ALL his money to keep himself and sl#t in the manner to which he was accustomed and wants still(even more than ow) and he has also spoiled ow and needs to keep ow happy and buy her love. This I cannot enable.....and he needs to provide acceptable support for his children first with HIS money and he can use the rest for his hedonistic lifestyle....which he is not capable of doing to the level he wants...so needs me to do this.<P>FAT CHANCE I will subsidize his lifestyle by overproviding for my kids so that he has more for ow and himself!

willbok,<P>Probably my H's most important "emotional need" is financial security. He is not stingy with the kids when he has plenty of money, but now that it is in short supply, he is not willing to put the kids' needs for things like education first. He is well aware of how little money I have. I know he doesn't have much either, but at least he doesn't have to worry about starving or not having a roof over his head, unless the OW kicks him out. <P>Unfortunately, at least in this state, the non-custodial parent only has to pay as much child support as he can afford, but the custodial parent, of course, has to feed, house, and clothe the children no matter what.

Nellie,<BR>I just wanted to say "good for you" for sticking up for what you believe in. Lots of people think I'm bitter cause I'm not out trolling for a new husband right now too. Oh well. <P>I guess alot of people don't think that hard about what "till death do us part" or "for better or worse" really means when they get married. More like "till death do us part--as long as my needs are being met" and "for better or worse--but it had better be better for me, or I'm outta here"

TheStudent,<P>It is ironic that maybe a year after we met, my H told me how much he appreciated the fact that I, unlike his first wife, didn't leave as soon as we had an argument, but stayed to work things out. His first wife left him only two months after they married. Silly me, I thought that meant that he did not belong to the "better be better for me, or I'm outta here" school. <P>When he announced that he wanted a divorce, he said that he "couldn't help his emotions", and apparently he couldn't help acting on them either. <P>He knew not long after we started dating that I did not believe in divorce. He acted horrified when a friend of his left his wife for an OW. Apparently in his case, "till death do us part" meant until he found somebody else.

Hi Nellie,<P>Just a quick note...<P>Have you gone through the Department of Education for your daughter's speech needs? (at THEIR cost, not yours!) I am an advocate for parents of children with special needs... I am in CA and don't remember where you're from, but I might be able to give you some advice on that front. <P>Let me know.<P>Take care.<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited August 13, 2000).]

Nellie,<P>You're right. Nothing can tell us what will happen in the future. Nothing prepared me for my husband's bout of depression and his inability to choose between continuing our marriage or ending it. It's been 8 months since my H left me and 5 months since he told me that he thought divorce was the only solution. So far, he hasn't filed for divorce, but he is having a grand time pretending to be single.<P>My parents are celebrating their 45th anniversary this month. It amazes me that my mother recently told me that she sometimes gets so depressed that she thinks about leaving. Luckily she is taking Zoloft and it seems to help. Nothing prepared her for the deaths of her siblings or for my father's heart problems. Sometimes we just have to accept that emotional baggage piles up and we have two choices. Fight or Flight.<P>I'm in favor of fighting. No sucessful relationship should end due to depression. Wish my H would pay attention.<P>kare

newbeginning,<P>Our daughter is getting services through the school - the problem is getting her there for her half day preschool program when I have to work, too. I'm having trouble finding appropriate daycare that will make it possible for her to take the van to school. Plus her doctors advised me that she would do better if she did not get pulled out for therapy, but went separately so that it would be less disruptive for her, but I can't do that. <P>kare,<P>From what I have read, in the vast majority of cases where a spouse suddenly leaves their marriage and undergoes a complete personality transformation, mental illness of some form is at the root of it.<P>

Nellie,<P>I'll think about your situation and if I can offer any assistance I will...<P>It sounds like you're already doing the right things... impressed, for example, with the fact that your daughter is receiving services while in pre-school. Not a lot of parents understand they can receive services BEFORE their child enters school. <P>You're doing great...<P>I will think...

newbeginning,<P>Thanks. It just makes me so upset that our daughter needs the one-on-one attention of a parent probably more than any of our other kids, and I'm probably going to have to work full time to keep us from starving - while my H, who always said that he wouldn't mind being a stay at home parent, is unemployed but unwilling to spend more than a day and a half a month and a weekly dinner at a fast food restaurant with her.

Nellie,<P>Our son has special needs, and I fully understand what you're saying here. He's nearly 16 years old now, and is on what's called hospital/home school... which you can bet your bottom is difficult to maintain when Dad and I both work full time. The teacher has to come at night, Dad works all day and nights too, only me to help with homework, going on for years with two other kids who needed help too, etc., etc., etc. AND, all that while we were 'happily' married, never mind how it's been since we've been seperated. But, I can say that David is trying harder with our son, and is much more involved than your H... and I almost say that apologetically.<P>You really are WAY ahead of the game in getting her help NOW... pat yourself on the back for that!<P>And yeah, it's really too bad that your H couldn't, AT LEAST, help out with her NOW, while he's unemployed...but, as you have said a zillion times, this isn't really your H you're dealing with... not the same guy you married... an alien...so it's up to you...<P>Very unfair, but you're doing a GREAT job... six kids as a single mom... you are really something!

<P>originally posted by TheStudent:<BR> "Sometimes I think that those who are out there dating again (and happy about it) just don't bond all that deeply. Therefore, having<BR>their marriage end isn't all that disturbing. Just like the spouses who left them."<P>~~ Oh, really? So, by being *happy* about dating again, I (or anyone else for that matter) don't bond deeply? Excuse me, but didn't *you* have an affair? Btw, my xH left more than 4 years ago, and he managed to impregnate the OW 2 months after he left. And you dare compare those of us who get on with our lives to our Xspouses?<P><BR>Also by TheStudent:<BR> "Another thing that cracks me up, is how so many think they know "so much more" now, and how they can make better choices. UM...they thought that when they got married the first time. For some reason, they think that if they just find the "perfect" person, that everything will be great."<P>~~ We do know a he!! of a lot more now, than we did *then*. We are not quite as trusting or gullible. And *yeah*, I certainly have learned how to make better choices...like listening to that voice that says, this person is not a good person. Which is exactly what I thought 4 months after I met my xH. But, stupid me, I was pregnant at the time... and thought I should stay with him.<BR> And exactly *who* said anything about finding the "perfect person" and then life would be just "great"? Do you have something against people getting on with their lives, or what? Personally, I'm *very* happy to NOT be my xH's doormat, anymore.

Mynabird,<P>I did bond deeply with my ex, that is why I was so depressed when it became thoroughly obvious that he didn't love me and never did. I made a bad choice and slept with another man one time. That was my big "affair". I only recently found out (after a year of being divorced) that my ex had been cheating on me months before my affair. He lied about that the entire time we were "reconciling", and said the most heinous things to me. Less than two weeks after my confession he was dating. A month after, he went on a vacation with the woman he cheated on me with before my "affair". And had no remorse, by the way. <P>The answer to your question is yes, I do have a problem with people who jump right into dating either before they get divorced or immediately after. I don't get the impression they are all that broken up about giving up a commitment they made for life. There is one thing I can tell you though. I never promised to be perfect, but I sure as h$ll did promise not to give up. <P>Go ahead and "get on with your life", just don't try to tell us that you are all that bummed out about your marriage ending. And if you are dating real soon after a divorce, it will be pretty tough to convince me you've done any serious soul searching to try and figure out what went wrong with your marriage. My opinion doesn't really matter though, does it? <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited August 14, 2000).]