"Go ahead and "get on with your life", just don't try to tell us that you are all that bummed out about your marriage ending."<BR> <BR>~~Did I say *anywhere* that I was all "bummed out" HA HA HA Don't make me laugh. <BR> "And if you are dating real soon after a divorce, it will be pretty tough to convince me you've done any serious soul searching<BR>to try and figure out what went wrong with your marriage."<P> ~~I may have dated soon after my divorce...but, babe, I *never* f*8ked around on MY husband. And AFTER 4 YEARS of serious "Soul Searching", you bet your cheating a$$ I know exactly what went wrong.<P> "My opinion doesn't really matter though, does it?" <P> ~~Nope, it really doesn't... but my, it's hilareous to have a cheating spouse tell US what we are doing "WRONG".

Nellie, TS,<P>My question to you both is, how are we supposed to act? Are we supposed to remain bitter and untrusting for the rest of our lives ? Can this "bond" never be broken ?<P>I forgave my x for the affair, but I have been unable to forgive her for what she did after that, namely refuse to end it or even work on our marriage. My x destroyed that bond and for that reason I resumed the divorce papers she started.<P>As for trusting other people I still trust everyone until they prove themselves untrustworthy. I do not trust my x for anything. I do not think I would believe her if she told me that the sky was blue. So I would say my bond with her is broken.<P>So maybe my marriage bond wasn't as strong as yours and thats why I ended up divorced. All I know is I felt and still feel a lot of pain over what was. I feel and I beleive in my soul that I did everything in my power to save my marriage and it didn't work.<P>But I refuse to stay bitter and look forward to my new life where ever it may take me.<P>As for getting remarried, I haven't even thought about that. As for dating I have a little. The first was relatively soon after the divorce but it was only one date. The second dating partner lasted about a month. When it ended at her request, it hurt, but that lasted only one day, so I had no emotions tied up with her yet. I can't speak for the others, but I am satisfied with how things are progressing for the most part.<P>AS for improving myself, I think the biggest improvement any of us can make is our communications skills.<P>I guess I do agree with you that we can be the best communicators or whatevers in the world but still lose out when the spouse suffers from depression/mental illness and opts for an affair to cope. <P>However I wonder how many people suffering from depression don't have affairs.<P>Also has depression become more common place now? You seem to think that all marriage end due to depression now. We all have seen the statistics showing that there are more divorces, do you have any facts showing there are more cases of depression other than it is now being identified more often?<P>I think you are way over generalizing when you say you can never be safe. There are just too many successful marriages to prove that.

I feel that i have to jump in......<BR>Nellie and TS are fully entitled to their feelings. We are all dealing with crises in our lives.....how we move forward is unique...we cannot judge others and condemn them because they feel differently or behave differently to the way we would...AFTER DEALING WITH THIS MESS. (other than our spouses who have betrayed us BY NOT DEALING WITH ANYTHING...i.e. THE ALIENS out there....not those such as The student who has soul searched deep and hard)<P>I know that TRUST is a huge issue...I am not divorced and have not dated....but one day will (I hope). But I have moved forward and am "happy" ...when not dealing with adolescent children's emotionally learned blackmail!!!! (whole other post)<P>So please do not attack and judge others here on this board for the choices they have chosen to deal with their particular and unique situations.<P>We have all learnt...and much of what we have learnt we would wish we never had had to...but that is life.....the good, the bad and the insane.<P>Some of us will be scarred for life, some of us will heal and move forward and some will move forward with barely a blemish, but we will all be changed, certainly in the way in which we relate to a significant other.....................this has to be the lesson as what worked, was not always workable in the long run...so for the future we will have to take stock a little more often, heep our eyes wide open and set clear ground rules etc....something you assume you have in your marriage, but obviously do not.

"other than our spouses who have betrayed us BY NOT DEALING WITH ANYTHING...i.e. THE<BR>ALIENS out there....not those such as The student who has soul searched deep and hard)"<P>Thank you, Willbok.<P>Mynabird,<BR>I am fully aware of my contribution to the failure of my marriage, and have purposely set my self apart in order to do the soul searching I suggest. I only suggest that those who are divorcing need to do some soul searching as well. My ex did great harm to me and our marriage as well, but he won't acknowledge that. <P>Everyone else, <BR>Divorce statistics for multiple marriages are 75%. I do have a reason to believe that people DO NOT make better choices alot of the time. Mostly because I believe (and it is just MY belief) that people who cheat and also those who get divorced and jump quickly into dating look OUTSIDE themselves for the answers. <P>Unfortunately, I also happen to believe that most people just aren't cut out for a life-time commitment. Maybe I'm one of them, I don't know. I do know I'm not going to find the answer to that question by doing alot of dating. <P>I tend to think that doing alot of dating soon after a divorce is harmful, both to oneself and others. It distracts people from doing work on oneself (even if you don't think you need it, you probably do) and it unnecessarily hurts others who might truly be ready to make a commitment. <P>Dating soon after a divorce may be a pleasant distraction and give the appearance of getting on with life. However, years down the road, those old pesky problems within oneself that were never dealt with in the first marriage, rear up their ugly heads. The result is more divorce and more pain. <P>There are people that I trust. My family (now) and a few friends. One of them I've had for over 20 years. Lack of trust is not the main reason I am not dating. I never did and never will like "casual" dating or casual relationships. I think people who do are users.<P>If I do date, it will be because I am seriously looking for a commitment. Since I refuse to be divorced again (and the odds are pretty high that I would, if you believe statistics), I am not dating.

TS,<BR>If you are not going to date till you decide you want a serious committment, how are you going to find someone else that is looking for a serious committment too?<P>Initially I thought you agreed with Nellie that most affairs/divorces resulted from depression/mental illness, but now you are saying that you are working on yourself. Which do you beleive?<P>I agree with you as to the causes on the second marriage divorce rates. That is why I am taking things slow. How will I know I am not a better person if I don't show that new person to others in a more than casual setting?<BR>Don't we all act different in a group setting versus a one on one situation ?<P>bob

TS,<P>Human nature I guess, for defense to turn to offense quite easily. Its pretty obvious the hurt that has been caused all around. You included - receiving as well as giving. <P>I always looked on your viewpoint as helpful, kind of like that irritating grain of sand in the oyster - its needed to make the pearl. So suffice to say, hoped to see the rocks you've thrown lately, go back to sand. Nice to see your response here. You got grit.

TS, <P> Your original post I refered to was nothing like this latest one. You came across as rancorous, condescending, and judgemental. I'll tell you straight out... I for one do not appreciate being *judged* by someone who knows *nothing* of my history... knows not one thing about what I did to try to save my marriage. I may have failed at that, but I did try.<P> In case you didn't notice... this *is* a Divorce/ing forum. Most of us have given it the best we've got. But, here we are. A couple of us are *years* into this.<P> I would suggest in the future, you keep your judgements about anyone else dating to yourself. You are not capable of giving good advice on *that* particular subect. We are adults here, and don't need someone telling us how "funny" we are for thinking we might make better decisions in the future. We don't appreciate being compared to animals in rut. And we definitely don't like being told that we didn't work *hard* enough on our marriages. We have had enough pain in the past, without you trying to heap guilt on top of that!<P> Mynabird

The Student:<P>Uh Oh! I found you. I'm baaaaccccckkkkkk!<P>I'm glad I read through this thread because I felt that your last post was more in keeping with the Old Student I once knew.<P>I think you have some very valid concerns about dating. And, I appreciate your opinions on that. I guess we all got really upset with you when the advice turned into judgments. The judgments are hurtful, the advice is helpful. Even if we don't agree with it, it makes us think. It is too bad that we are having to lash out at each other here. Hopefully, we can stop this and become more supportive of each other again.<BR>Your last post contained a lot of concern and advice about dating. Thank you.<P>I do wonder why you feel that those of us who are dating are no longer soul searching. I am still going to individual counseling trying to figure out what I did wrong in my marriage, what problems I have from the past that I haven't resolved. I also have set up boundaries with the man I am now exclusively dating so that we both have time apart to work on our individual issues. When we are together, we talk about the failure of our marriages, what we think we did wrong, what we hope will do in the future, etc. We come to these sites for guidance, we read books on relationships, we pray for guidance. I haven't stopped soul searching and I was in counseling for several years before my marriage ended trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. I made some terrible mistakes along the way. I know that. I am trying to learn from that. Isn't it possible to work on oneself and also be in a relationship?

Hi RWD,<BR>I do agree with Nellie that affairs in long term marriages are most likely caused by some sort of mental illness or depression. I was very, very depressed when I cheated on my ex. Partly due to things he was doing, partly due to my own problems that had nothing to do with him. I'm fortunate that I realized very quickly that what I was doing was self-destructive, unlike some other people who have affairs.<P>I have no plans to remarry in the future. This time without dating is permanent for the foreseeable future. If I change my mind about wanting to remarry, I'm sure I'll find a way to find someone who is also commitment oriented. It is not something I've put alot of thought into, though, because I'm not focused on dating.<P>I think one can learn a whole lot about others in a group setting. I agree that you can learn alot from one-on-one situations too, though. I do have a few guy friends that I occasionally go do stuff with, but I don't consider them dates. In group settings, it is very clear to others that I'm not interested in a romantic relationship. None of these guy friends have made passes at me, we split all of the going out expense. Basically, I treat them the same as my girlfriends. <P>This is where things get sticky for so many people when it comes to dating. They don't want a commitment, but they want alot of the perks that go along with it (i.e. sex, someone to do stuff with, someone to pay the bills). I don't want to be treated that way and I will try very hard not to treat someone else that way.<P>Hi 711,<BR>you posted before me. You asked...<P>"Isn't it possible to work on oneself and also be in a relationship?"<P>I know you are talking about romantic relationships, so I'll try to address that.<P>Well, hopefully all of us will never stop working on ourselves. It is pretty hard to identify all of the issues we need to resolve just alone. I'm not saying we shouldn't interact with others. I have lots of relationships. I have relationships with you folks here, for instance. I just think it is harmful (both to you and potentially the other person) to get into a romantic relationship without being commitment oriented. <P>I don't want to be "gone through", and I don't want to hurt anyone else. If someone is having sex without even the intent on pursuing commitment, then they are just using the other person--in the big scheme of things. You can do work on yourself both within a romantic relationship or outside of one. However, I think you will get to your own issues alot quicker if you are not distracted by worries about someone else's intentions, honesty, etc. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited August 15, 2000).]

The Student:<P>Thanks for the reply.<P>Good point on dating regarding issues being resolved much quicker when you are not distracted by worries. I must admit I have had a lot of worries since I started dating and they do distract me from working on myself. So, I guess my recovery will be slowed down by my dating but at this time that is what I need to do.<P>Well you have a good point regarding sex. Once that happens, it does change the relationship, like it or not. I am dating this man exclusively. This is not what I had planned on doing. I was going to wait a year before dating for all the reasons you stated above. I was going to take things slow, etc. But, this is where I have ended up. I am hoping for the best. I know the odds are against me, but I'm hoping I get lucky.<p>[This message has been edited by 711 (edited August 17, 2000).]

TS,<BR>I have a magazine article I'll have to reread, its gives pro and con for dating and courting(going out together in groups). I'm in Detroit most of this week and will look for them this weekend(don't hold me to that though! LOL). <P>If you are interested I can fax it to you. I can't type to save my life so I'm not keen about posting it here.<P>Bob

RWD,<P>I appreciate your effort. I'm truly not interested in dating (even in groups). I just happen to work with alot of guys (like, all guys) and do stuff with them. **Please do** post the name of the article and where you got it from. Alot of people could benefit from it here. <P>

newbeginning,<P>Thanks for the encouragement.<P>I wish, if nothing else, that at least my H would be more involved with the children. I know he loves them. I don't know if it hurts too much to do more than have a superficial relationship with them, or if he believes that is all they want. And I am sure the OW is not encouraging him to spend lots of time with his kids.

Bob,<P>I don't know if depression is any more common, but I would bet it is more often identified nowadays. I think one of the factors that determines whether a depressed person has an affair is opportunity. With the internet, there is plenty of opportunity to get involved with someone else, and I think a lot of people who would hesitate to begin an affair with a "real" person are more likely to get involved in an online affair. Even in real life there are far more opportunities to meet people with whom to have affairs than there were 50 or 100 years ago - not only because there are more women in the workplace, but because years ago the majority of Americans were farmers, which tended to limit their contacts with outside people, especially women. And then there is the factor that although people have always had affairs, divorce used to be both more difficult and have more of a stigma associated with it.<P>I might feel differently about ever being able to feel safe again if I had only been married for a few years, but I have known and trusted my H for a quarter of a century, and some people here have been married even longer than that. If you can't trust someone you have known that long, who can you trust? And, unfortunately, the chance that your spouse is going to cheat on you at some point is greater than 50%, maybe 75%, based on statistics that I have read. <P>

Hey Nellie,<P>I didn't read this entire thread, but I just wanted to TRY to encourage you. I know its been awhile since I've posted or replied to anyone, but there are times that I really want to reply, but don't know what to say. And this is one of those times BUT I just wanted to let you know that I care and that I will continue to lift you up in prayer. Your situation is one the most pecuilar I must say from everyone that I've kept up with. You had absolutely no clue. ANd I can understand why that can make you feel the way you so. Just remember, God is so much bigger than what we are going thru and he is Able to do above and beyond whatever we can imagine. I don't know what the future holds, but I know that you and your children will be blessed. Somehow and someway....Until then.......GOD BLESS!!<P>------------------<BR><B>Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com