HI All,<BR> Been away for a while, just lurking and my prayers go out to you my friends.<BR> Well, Quick review...<BR> Wife had EA for 2 years with much older man (W 47 me 45 OM 61). Left Sept 99 and moved in with OM, Father died Nov 99, Divorced (I tried to stop it) July 7th 00, Wife married OM July 17th 00!!<BR> Well, the week after her wedding she calls me to console me that I had to put our dog of 15 years down. I'd told her the time was coming but the "fog" the "fog" !!!! <BR> We bought him on our honeymoon so there is a connection to our marriage. Oddly, as our marriage started to die, so did poor Nick. As a matter of REAL WEIRD fact, he stopped eating for the first time in his life on her wedding day!! Never ate again, died 5 days later.<BR> <BR> Well, exW cried and cried on the phone while she was "consoling me"! She said, "I didn't think it would hit me like this!"<BR> Well, a week goes by and she calls again. this time she really had a reason. Our daughter married a substance abuser and he fell off the wagon so D and her 5 month old moved in with exW. We are her parents and we do need to discuss the children so OK.<BR> She called 10 TIMES last week including talking me into spending the day with her and our grandson.This was the FIRST time we were in the same room with him since the night he was born.<BR> We had such a nice day. BUT, it was TOO comfortable. Like it SHOULD be. She told me what a great father and grand father I am. Said all these nice things. We went to get him some clothes and food and she insisted I ride with them. Saw my scraped arm and rubbed it for a while. I was ready to leave and she said she was starving and did I want to get something. SHE LIVES 4 MILES from where we were!! Why not eat at home??<BR> As I write this I realize it sounds stupid BUT, you had to be there! The LONG looks into my eyes (about 2 minutes as she was leaving) She had a REAL hard time making ANY eye contact for SOOO long!! The leaning against me in the stores. The smiles the body language. ALL RIGHT ON the money!! <P> And now, she calls almost EVERYDAY! We talk for HOURS on the phone almost EVERY bloody day!! Granted, this thing with our D is the beginning of the phone call, but the VAST majority of the conversation is just CONVERSATION!! SOMETIMES LIKE TODAY TWO OR THREE TIMES and today she got upset when I said I had to go!!<BR> On "D" day I confronted her about WHAT this older man "Did" for her. She said "He LISTENS to me and he doesn't want sex"<BR> Well, doesn't he "Listen" to her anymore?<BR> <BR> What's my question?<BR> Well my friends, I was in a pretty good place two weeks ago. Movin on.... no pain..... Hadn't dated yet because I'm just not in a hurry. Do I still love my W... OH YA!! BUT, now she's OM's W!!<P> I just have a gut feeling that our dog dieing and our grandson and our D's trouble is making her realize that it is ME that she runs to when the going REALLY gets tough!! ME always was, for MOST of her adult life it was ME not OM. I'M HER #@#$@#$#$ BEST FRIEND NOT THAT &@*^@&#^!@&!@# OM!!!!<P> And she said something else funny. "Your the only one that pays any attention to him (GS)" <BR> She couldn't mean out D!! Or our Son!! Must mean OM doesn't and being grandparents was one of the MOST important "needs" we BOTH had when we went to marriage encounter a few years ago!!!<BR> So what now? She's opening the wounds again. I feel the pain of missing her again. Heck, I love her!!!<BR> Do I tell her to back off while I heal?? Or do I follow my GUT that this "Thing" with OM will dissolve and she WILL come out of the fog?? Can you say "Annulment"? <BR> I know one thing I've learned. If someone loves you there's not much you can "say" to make that love go away. I mean THINK of the HORRIBLE things the WS is known to say. WE STILL LOVE THEM RIGHT?<BR> So if I tell her to leave me alone (nicely) will THAT hurt her enough to leave me alone forever? I REALLY REALLY REALLY have a hard time hurting her!! Or do I continue a Plan "A" in spite of her being Married to OM? Is she coming out of the fog or just over me enough to see me (although the looks and crying that day we spent lead me to believe otherwise) HELP!!!!! GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK

There's not an icon for this one, Frank!<P>You know what I think. Her relationship and marriage to OM had NOTHING to do w/ how she feels about you and nothing to do with love. She pretty much admitted that time and time again. She's in a mess now and I believe she's starting to realize it.<P>Like I said the other day, it's also easier for her now, just like it's easier for you. No pressure. She can be herself with you. You're right, you are, have always been her very best friend. <P>Take care of yourself now. She has to find her own way and I think she's beginning to do that. You never know what will happen...remember my SIL! But, for now, you continue to take care of YOU. The only decision you need to make now is if you will continue to be her friend. Quite honestly, I don't see you not doing that....remember, I KNOW you!!! And there's nothing wrong with that. <P>But....if you NEED "no contact" then, go for it! But, after talking, I don't really believe that you have unrealistic expectations or that you cannot heal and grow with her as part of your life - even as a friend. Just proceed cautiously.<P>Love you, dear friend. Take care and we'll talk soon. Robert says "hi" and "be careful". But you know Robert!!!! LOL Seriously, his advice was to do what is best for you, follow your own instincts and listen to the "whispers". (Think he's been around ME too long????? )<P>Love,<P>Lori

Hi Frank...<P>It's been a while!<P>I think I will be following in your footsteps very shortly...<BR>...my trial date is 10/10/00<BR>...my W will most certainly marry the OM shortly after that<BR>...and I still am in Plan A.<P>I too have questioned whether a Plan A is feasible after divorce...<P>My gut instinct is that it is not really workable... if the exSpouse and you had a difficult last few months and a difficult divorce...<BR>...but is possible if things were more amicable.<BR>If the likelihood is great that she could come back to you...<BR>...go for it.<P>Otherwise...<BR>...I really don't see how you can go on "normally" with your life.<P>If you're serious about an annulment...<BR>...it seems to be a bit two-faced to "be nice"(ala Plan A) and then file for the annulment. Plan B is a more forthright approach.<P>Once I sense from my W...<BR>... the improbability of her returning to me (and not just that her and her OM staying together)... I <B>will</B> follow the Plan B -> annulment route.<P>Prayers for you dear friend. <P>Jim

Hi Frank (another of the good guys! ),<P>I'm gonna be the lurking loner here and say that you need to let go (in your head emotionally) and allow her to be this OM's W right now. <P>Plan A her if it's what feels right to you, but remember that she is his W now, and let this thing between them run its course. <P>Ever see the movie "That Old Feeling" with Bette Midler and Dennis Farina? Maybe that will be you and ex-W, and you'll live happily ever after IN THE FUTURE. <P>I don't come on the board often, but for you and a few other old-timers I'll venture out into the sun...<P>I care about you, and wish you only the best. I hope that 'the best' is with your ex, but for now, you need to take care of Frank. Take good care of him.<P>Sheryl<BR>

PLEASE HELP:<P>Man, you sure do come up with complicated stuff. I have to say I agree with Sheryl. She is now married to another man. Her choice not yours. I know she didn't have any respect for your marriage, but I also know you do have respect for the institution. You tried so hard to get her to come out of the fog.<P>So I would suggest being a father and Grandfather , but back off and start to get your own life together. Your exW is very confused as you pointed out, the OM was sooo good because she could talk to him. Well, where is he in all of this?<P>I sit here with such mixed feeling and I know this is what you had been hoping for, for so long, but she is now married. Part of me wants to say romance her get her back, but I know it is wrong.<P>Actually, I really think that you must treat yourself as a single man and her as a married woman. What is the appropriate behavior? I think you know. If she really is seeing clearly now then she will have to get out of her marriage on her own. Then you can talk about getting back together.<P>Everything you wanted seems to be being handed to you or at least offered, and it isn't right to receive it. My vote: do the right and moral thing. Stay out of their marriage and behave as a single man dealing with a married woman.<P>I don't even really like that advice myself. But I suspect it is the best. She has her own marriage to deal with and it isn't your marriage.<P>Are you confused with this post? I am. <P>God Bless,<P>JL

Lori,<BR> HI and thanks to Robert!! I still owe him a beer! Thanks I posted because after the last two days it started to hurt, the missing I mean. I'm OK, and love you all very much!!<P>Jim old friend,<BR> Good luck on the 10th. Believe it or not, it's not as bad as you might think. Kind of a relief really, at least for me. <BR> As for the last few months being difficult, they weren't for us. As a matter of fact while all the others in the court stayed on separate sides of the room and glared at each other we stood in the back and talked!! THEN talked for an hour and a half AFTER in the parking lot!! Strange....<P>Hi Sheryl,<BR> Nice to read your voice!! I care very much about you too and hope you are in a "good" place. I am taking care. My "mindset" is that this probably is going to take a year or two and I will just "sow my wild oats" again and travel and date (carefully) and learn to fly a plane and all the other things I've always wanted to but couldn't do because of family commitment. And, leave it in God's MIGHTY hands... If I meet someone else....... Well, I'll deal with that then. I think a LOT of married guys would LOVE this chance!! It's the "safest way for me to think because if I think it OVER FOREVER, I think of HOW it was over and it HURTS LIKE H**L!!! Take care my friend and keep in touch.<P>Just Learning,<BR> I agree 100%!! She IS married and although in MOST people's opinions it's a FARCE marriage, it's still a marriage!! Please understand after the pain (that only WE UNDERSTAND FULLY!! ) that I and my VERY good friends here have gone through under "normal" circumstances with a NORMAL married woman I would NEVER consider it!! I would RUN, HIDE OR CUT MY DAM HEAD OFF BEFORE I'D PUT MYSELF OR ANY OTHER SPOUSE THROUGH AN AFFAIR!! (although giving OM a dose would be nice!! But in my heart, she's still my W. When I look at other woman, it feels WRONG, like I'm cheating on HER!!<P> This does make it tough and I WILL NEVER step over the line no matter WHAT she says or does. If and when SHE wants to step over, I will remind her that she IS MARRIED and it's WROONNNGGG!! (In a sick way I look forward to telling her NO and standing on the SAME principals I stood on to try and save OUR marriage you know?? ) I won't, KISS HER, HAVE SEX WITH HER, SEND HER ROMANTIC CARDS, SUGGEST SECRET MEETINGS, TELL HER I LOVE HER IN ROMANTIC WAY, MAKE ADVANCES IN ANY WAY. <P> I WILL be her friend, a good father to her children and GRANDPA!! I WILL hug her (platonically) never anything more. If and when she realizes she made a HUGE mistake for EVERYONE involved, annuls the marriage or divorces the OM. Then, LOOK OUT!! In God's MIGHTY hands......<BR> GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS MY FRIENDS FRANK<p>[This message has been edited by PLEASE HELP (edited August 18, 2000).]

PLEASE HELP<P>Plan A can be used whether or not you are married, it is just about being a great person. I agree with JL, Platonic plan A, not romance Plan A. <P>Then live the single life, but do not date anyone else for a while to see how this plays out. Enjoy yourself and learn to live independently, so that if the time is every right, and she is coming out of the fog, and her relationship is crumbling, you could suggest that she doesn't need to take his crap, etc. and maybe she will consider an anullment, etc. but don't talk about yourself<BR>and her getting together unless she is divorced.<P>BUT DO NOT START BEING ROMANTICALLY INVOLVED.<P>Lots of conversation, and keep it at that.<BR>could conversation be her number #1 emotional need?<P>thl<P><BR>thl<BR>

WhenIfindthetime,<BR> I agree NO ROMANCE. I can't compromise my integrality now after all this time!! But MAN it really ticks me off that I have to respect OM's marriage when he had ABSOLUTELY NO respect for ours!!!! LIFE IS SO UNFAIR!!!!!<BR> So, IF I can hold out, I guess this makes me a better man than he is??? I would LOVE to see HIM feel what I've felt!! I just hope I outlive him so I can go to his grave and..........OK enough anger. <BR> But you know, he wouldn't because he doesn't love my exW like I do. God will take care of OM in the long run, this I'm sure of in my heart.<BR> Anyway, interesting what you said about not dating. THAT is my GUT feeling on this! In the past when a relationship of mine broke up I RAN into another. NOT THIS TIME for TWO reasons. One, MAYBE my W and I......<BR> and Two, I need to heal FIRST and find out ALL the things that made THIS one break down first and MOST of all, LEARN how to just be alone rather than feeling like a loser for being alone. Make sense anyone??<P>

Hey Frank, long time no hear from.<P>I agree with the others that you should respect the marriage. Be nice, but no privledges. As I see it, this is more about you, and how you feel, and your sense of yourself as a person. I know that you will do the right thing.<P>Isn't being a grandpa the greatest? It is the second best job in the world, next to being a parent.<P>Good Luck. There is a plan. You need to let it run it's course.<P>Brian

HI Brian,<BR> Yes!! Being a Grandpa is the greatest!! My grandson is the LIGHT OF MY LIFE!! I can't wait to do all the Grandpa things like taking him to the ballgame etc... I also teach 6-7 year olds Sunday school and the LOVE that God sends to me through these kids is AMAZING!! I truly feel loved in my life. The best kind, the innocent unjudgeing kind. I am blessed in MANY ways. This thing with my W is a small AND LARGE part if you know what I mean. I try to focus on all the great things God has blessed me with. <P> About the Grandpa thing, I did plan on being one with her. Even if I remarried and had my own children I wouldn't live long enough to do it with someone else!! "There is Plan" Thanks for reminding me <P> I trust God has a plan for me that will have a happy ending.<BR> How are you lately? I read a couple of your posts while lurking. Still holding out? LMK THANKS FRANK

Things are things.<P>I see some indication that she is coming out of the fog. But I don't know if it is too late. My two month plan B seemed to have worked fairly well. OM has started his job on the east coast, so it seems maybe time to start up with plan A again.<P>Meanwhile, I am sleeping on Mom's couch. At least the kids have a room. Took a leave from school. Don't know whether to go back or not. Got offered a job a $40,000 a year on Thursday. I'll take it for now, but continue to look for something better. 40 grand does not go very far in California.<P>The limbo state seems to be coming to an end. Can't wait.<P>Brian