Not sure where to start? We have been married for a little over 4 years now. We have been seperated for about 6 months. It was my wife's decision to leave - we have always had small problems in our relationship, but from my perspective they were nothing ground-breaking: No alcohol, drugs, physical abuse, infidelity, or anything else like that. We are both in our twenties, I am 29 and she is about 3 years younger. We married and bought a house and a dog and quickly became "broke".<P>About a year ago she came to me and "let me have it with both barrels". She told me about all the feelings she had pent up inside of her for the past couple years. Things I had no idea about (and some I did). We went for counseling back in November and that went on for about 3 months. The counselor (phsycologist) said that in three months we needed to decide whether the marriage was worth working on or not. At the end of the three months she chose to "not". I love my wife dearly, always have. But being young and having financial problems put a severe strain on our marriage. But I believe it goes a lot further than that. I have felt since we got married that I am paying for issues that preceeded her even knowing me - both family issues and other more personal issues (like the worst thing that can happen to a woman, caused by a man....). She is such a beautiful person, but often that is only on the outside. Once you get to know her you can see that she is "looking" for something to make her happy and she just can't seem to find it.<P>Her reasoning for leaving was that even though she still "loved" me, she was not "in-love" with me anymore. She said that for the past three years I treated her like S _ _ _! And that she just fell out of love with me. Granted I take responsibility for having become a workaholic. I let the stress get to me. Its not that I took things out on her, but rather I became "stale" and "blah". Depressed I guess you can say. I was so focused on "putting food on our table" that I lost track of me, God and her. I was so "down on myself" for not being a "success" in business (whatever that means!). But, when she came to me a year ago, it was like she took a bat and broke through the walls to let me out. I realized that working hard was not worth it if it meant I would lose the most important person in my life. In that one night, I saw my whole life so clearly and saw where I had gone astray. I lost focus of life's true meaning. But now I wanted to show her that I want to change!<P>From that point forward I changed everything. Shorter working hours, more time at home. Cleaned, took better care of the house and more than anything else wanted to spend as much time with her as possible. But, she never gave me a chance. She either looked at what I was doing as a "quick fix" or "too little, too late". She began spending more time out of the house (and while an affair is unlikely?? It would not have been impossible at that time). The bottom line is that nothing I did would matter. But, she said that I had become the husband she always wanted.?!!?!?<P>The counselor said that when we first came to him, I was looking for a savior and she was looking for a funeral director for our marriage. And he was right. She would sit in the office and barely say anything (I would do all the talking). But when we left and I wanted to follow his advice (going away on vacation, spend the day together, etc..) she would have nothing to do with it.<P>What else could I do at that point but turn to God. I had always been a faithful person, but during the past few years I lost touch with my faith. Now I went to back to Him and asked for direction and help. <P>The counselor told me that she had so much anger built up towards me, but she did not know why. She was holding on to little incidents that were not "issues" but for some reason she would not let them go and forgive. He said that with time anger often subsides and that if "she can't forgive you and find out why the anger is there, there is no hope for the marriage".<P>Now here we are 6 months seperated. She is down south living with a relative basically expense free while I am home continuing on with our, well I guess now, its just my life. We recently (about 4 weeks ago) began emailing each other. Nothing ground breaking, just chit-chat. We also spoke once or twice on the phone. Now she brings up the divorce like it is no big deal and just some paperwork that needs to be done. I disagree. I do not believe in divorce, nor do I want one (and have told her that). But I also know that I can't prevent one all by myself. I still feel tinges of her love for me, but it is like she is holding it back. On top of everything, her father is an attorney and I believe is pushing her along in this process (he has always been a controlling person in her family and it is a typical love-hate relationship she has with him). And I truly believe deep down inside of him, he would be more than happy to have his "little girl" to himself again.<P>Now my question (which by the way I don't think there is any real right answer to): How long to I continue? People say "as long as you want to", but I can be a stubborn person and could see myself trying to hold on to something when there is no hope left. Of course I get all the typical advice - "move on", "date others", "focus on yourself". But I truly believe in marriage and I truly believe in our love. I pray for her and us everyday.<P>Is it possible for her to be not "in love" with me but to still "love me"? Try as I can, I can't understand that statement. I feel that she has "issues" to deal with and not that she is "sick", but kind of yes. I look at it as if she had cancer or another disease would I walk away? I just don't know. But, the one positive in all this is the comfort and strength I have regained through God's help. I feel strong and I am doing things for myself - different things, new things. Spending time with family and friends. And although not a day goes by without missing her, I feel almost "whole" again. Its just hard. And yes I do still wear my ring (her's has been off for 4 months).

all I can say is I feel your pain.<P>Sounds a lot like my wife. She suffered greatly as a child, and has never fully dealt with those "issues".<P>She has said all the same things, and even gone futher than that now.<P>Our case became very ugly, and I gave in to her demands of divorce. Today I had a criminal tresspass warrant issued for her.<BR>Divorce is an ugly serpent!<P>Good luck to you.........keep posting. Many others in here have more time and experience under their belts than I do.<P>God Bless<BR>Ben

I feel for you as I am in asimilar situation, but unfortunately I have no answers, only similar questions.<P>My wife was sexually abused as a child, and although she says that it isn't a big deal, it is. Many people will try and convince you that sexual abuse is a cop-out, and although some people use it as a scapegoat, it does have lifelong emotional scars. She has been unhappy for years, and after trying to change everything about herself, she recently moved out and changed our relationship. I am currently 99% sure that she is still not happy, but she feels that she has one less thing to deal with in life. Unfortunately, she has never and is not now interested in therapy. She feels that it is the past and can't be changed.<P>Was this issue dealt with in counseling? She should have gone to sessions alone to deal with it. I'm not so sure that I am impressed with your counselor, by your statements. More often than not, a counselor/therapist can do more harm than good.<P>As far as my wife internally, we've moved alot. She's had alot of cars. She always needs something new to make her happy for a short time. She has a borderline eating disorder. She is never happy with herself or her body. She doesn't accept compliments well. She has a tendency to give too much of herself until she's burned out. She is very independent, she tries not to rely on me for much or let herself be vulnerable. These are subconscious effects of her trauma, and it was almost 30 years ago. No-one realizes that she is this way, everyone sees her as always being happy.<P>I've learned that with her negative view with men, the ways in which I have let her down in the past have never left her, even if they were somewhat insignificant. Men have let her down in life, she sees me as doing the same.<P>She told me as she was leaving that she still loves me, but isn't "in love" with me. She says that she is void of feelings, towards me, us, and "other things" but won't discuss what "other things" mean. I am VERY guily of taking our marriage for granted, not spending enough time with her, and not putting her and us at the top of my priority list. She says that it's too late, that I've destroyed all of her feelings for me and after working at our marriage for 10 years, she doesn't want to work at it any more.<P>Initially I hit her with all of my feelings regarding us and her depression/trauma. I told her then, and I still believe, that I will never give up on this marriage as ling as she is still depressed. I've told her that I 1st want to get her back to being happy, then work at our marriage. So far, she has resisted.<P>For the last week, I have quit bugging her and tried to be more thoughtful, understanding, compassionate, and loving when we talk. No more "poor me", please, I'm begging for another chance, etc. We have actually begun to communicate better since I started this.<P>It sounds as if the distance between you poses a difficulty, I feel for you. It's very tough to see someone in those situations. I would suggest being very upbeat and compassionate when you write her. Don't push the marriage.<P>I'm still waiting for answers elsewhere on this forum from anyone who has advice for my, and now your, situations.<P>Keep your faith. Don't give up. As hard as it may sound, all things happen for a reason to us in life. This has been the most difficult period that I have ever endured, but I am a better person because of it.<P>Good luck and God Bless.<p>[This message has been edited by Still Praying (edited August 25, 2000).]

It all sounds to familar, love you but not in love. This issue has been addressed in the past and it seems that in love is an early stage and a less mature love.<P>I am going to explore this some more as I don't have answers.<P>I know where you are at and will pray for you and your wife. Keep your head up!

check my post on h and I had a long talk..it might give you some insite into your wife..<BR>and help you in the long run...

You will know when to give up. You will wake up one morning and it will be like a tremendous weight has been lifted from you. Don't beat a dead horse! And don't beat yourself up. You did change and that will benefit your next relationship. Sounds like your wife only sees the bad in your marriage and will continue to do so.

SoTired, <BR>You will know when to give up when you feel for her, but don't love her anymore. I have almost the same exact scenario as you. Recently my feelings towards my wife, well they just are not really there anymore. I still think about her, but her constant scorn and ill will towards me has changed my feelings towards her. I hate that fact that one can turn around in a marriage, while the other just refuses to. I know you do as well. I'd say move on, because I hate to admit it, but in our spouses eyes we are already divorced. I want you to know that I don't think you have done anything wrong though. Keeping in Plan A, as you have been doing has been good for you. You should continue that. In reality you are the individual that has gotten better, while your S wallows in the sorrow of yesterday. I don't know why our S's cannot let go of the past, refusing our apologies, refusing our love. Think about it though, if she were to turn around, would you really want her? I know you love her, but separate your emotions from the facts. She left you, after you went to Plan A. She would not give you a chance. Do you really want someone like that? I ask this because I have been asking myself the same questions. Due to our similar circumstances. <BR>I wish you luck on whatever course you choose, the decision is yours, just throwing in my .02 cents. May God be with You.

Shyhigh,<BR>It sounds to me like you are at the end of your rope, and I wish you the courage to continue waiting and praying.<P>As men, we often don't understand the way in which women cherish their emotions and their marriage as a commitment for life. When we break that trust, in the variety of ways that we do, it is very difficult for them to start trusting us again. Someone once told me that in a relationship, the times that we disappoint them are like very small pebbles, and eventually those small pebbles build a wall.<P>You mention her scorn and ill will, and I am curious as to whether this seems to be her personality, or if this is the way that she's treated you since she's left. Either way, it can be reversed. Although you probably feel beaten down and exhausted by it, it may help to explore where these feelings come from so that you can understand them.<P>If that's her personality, and you mention your scenario being similar to SoTired2000, then you need to have a full understanding of what a childhood abuse actually does for a person. It's not living in the past, it's not being able to break free from the past. It's never experiencing a childhood. It's never feeling loved. It's still having a portion of their personality, emotionally, that never grew past that age. It has created the person that you know today, good and bad, and it helps to understand it.<P>If this is the way that you've been treated since she left, then you need to understand the pent up bitterness, anger, and frustration that she has towards you for the times that you hurt her and she kept it inside. She needs to release those feelings, and if you fight back or tell her to quit living in the past, she will never be able to let them go. Another possibility, is that if you constantly tell her that she is wrong, or that she needs to get over this and work on the mariage, she never will. She will continue to fight you as she is in withdrawl.<P>You say that you don't know if your feelings are really there anymore, if they ever were, then they still are. If you really love your wife, unconditionally, they will always be there and you will never give up. I say unconditionally, because it's easy to only want someone when they want us, and if not, we give up. That's not love, that's selfishness.<P>Men also have a tendency to view life with a "that was yesterday, this is today, so get over it" attutude. She is not wallowing in the past, but right now, if you haven't reminded her of some of the good times from the past, that's all she can remember. She can't remember what you did right, or even what she did wrong, only what you did wrong. If you have not shown her a completely different attitude when around her, everything that you say or any body language that reminds her of how you've hurt her in the past will bring up her defenses and she will push you away. Her trust for you is gone, she has emotionally removed herself from you, and if you want her back, then you have a lot of rebuilding to do.<P>Her love tank is on empty, and although you are both responsible for this situation, telling her that isn't going to help. You need to show her your love by filling her love tank. If you feel that you have, how long do you go before you have a love buster? Before you ask her why you can't work at it? Before you tell her how much you miss her, that you've changed, and that you want another chance? If it's too soon or too often, then her needle is never staying out of the red.<P>As for her changing and turning around, if she called you right now and wanted to start working on this and you refused, you would be a fool if you ever loved her. It's not that she is unwilling to give you another chance, it's that it took her a tremendous amount of time to come to the decision to leave. She is protecting her feelings from being hurt again. She is confused. She is lonely and afraid. She sees something in you that tells her that you really haven't changed, and that if she would come back, then it would eventually come back to this point. There is a reason that she left, and right now your actions speak louder than words. This didn't happen overnight, so you can't expect it to be fixed that fast. You can't make demands, you can't give her a timeline.<P>Love is more than an emotion, love is an attitude, shown through appropriate behavior. Love is forgiving, patient, understanding, non-judgemenatal, and unconditional. Love is looking at a situation through someone else's eyes, and reacting in a way that will benefit them instead of yourself.<P>If you have never been here, spend some time looking through the weekly topic archive. It is full of information on what to do now, as well as how to take care od yourself. <A HREF="http://www.ratedg.com/chapman/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.ratedg.com/chapman/</A> <P>Ultimately, the decision to give up is yours, and yours alone. No one can can tell you when it's right, but you need to make sure that you fully understand the situation to make sure that you aren't jumping to a decision that you'll regret.<P>Peace be with you in these most troubling of times.<BR>

StillPraying,<P> Thats very true!! <P> Skyhigh, if your wife lived through abuse<BR>as a child..maybe you should see my post on<BR>the conversation I had w/ my h..he thinks<BR>I should "just get over it" but those abuses<BR>become the belief system in which a person<BR>has..they become the core of her..and when<BR>we begin to face those issues we must face that every single thing we have lived, believed and heard about ourselves is a LIE!!! So we Don't trust anyone..Not even<BR>our own choices..until we learn to trust<BR>our own thoughts and feelings we won't trust <BR>anyone else..especially someone who has continually hurt us, and treated us abusively<BR>(even if the other person doesn't realize thats how they treated them) so until the<BR>other person starts looking w/ in themselves<BR>as well, and how their actions/words spoke to<BR>the abused person..they will never understand<BR>how much they really hurt the one they say they love..

Well, it looks like this is a male post, but I hope I can join in. I am in the same situation, but it seems that I am the one he isn't in love with any more. I am faithfully depositing love units in the bank and have seen some slight encouragement, but he thinks it is a quick fix too.<BR>I'm not sure how long you should wait, because my husband is still in the home. I kind of have an advantage to do the little things. I firmly believe that this plan works. I firmly believe and can see where my husband and I made the steps through the 3 stages of marriage.<BR>I do feel for you in the fact that it feels like her family is against you. That was the worst feeling for me, but they are really wanting us to work it out!!<P>I will be thinking of all of you and hopr that our situations take a turn for the better.<P>Jennifer

SoTired,<BR> I've been separated for over two years now and just yesterday my attorney called to inform me my S has sent him the divorce papers.<BR> When do you give up?<BR> One thing I've learned from this group and many good friends, is that you can NEVER give up loving your wife.<BR> You learn to accept it, but, at least for me, It's never completely over.<BR> My S had a terrible childhood and years of nightmares and vast emotional swings, but myself and the children just learned to accept it as part of life.<BR> Two years later I've found that I still love her, but I realize I haven't been in love with her for some time.<BR> I was the Giver for many, many years and she got used to being the Taker.<BR> And I'm only learning now that it is okay to be a Taker now and again.<BR> My daughter and oldest son live with me and we all have learned a lesson in life by being together as a family, and apart from my S and their mother.<BR> Part of my will be glad to get the divorce over with, but another part of me is still having a tough time with divorce ... even AFTER attending divorce classes, and classes at church .... it's NOT what God wants and it's certainly not what I want .... but I've reached that point where I'm tired of giving, and giving. I've lived in Plan A a very long time .........<BR> So I don't know when do you give up?<BR> But I DO know that life goes on .... with or without my approval.<BR> And we're not alone, my friend.<BR> And sometimes it's good to hear from others to let you know that you are not at there all by yourself.<BR> I wish I could give you better advice, but this is one area that only YOU can answer best.<BR> I will be praying for you.<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>

I don't think this situation is an easy one.<BR>After all what divorce is when you get left behind?<BR>Same situation for me but reversed.<BR>I would be your wife.<BR>I told my husband i hated him and i didn't love him. That he was a workaholic and didn't kow where and when to find boundaries for family work and extended family.<BR>I was abused as a child... and i held on to bitter sweet events in our 10 year relationship.<BR>I am over them now and have come to accept them. one of the things that i did learn is that having the support of someone makes a very big difference. My husband unlike you found and started living with another woman 2 months aftre we separtated. I got my answers and reassured myself that i did make the right choice a year a go. Now he treats our daughter with the same disregard as he treated me during our marriage. HIS LOSS!<BR>My point is that you have to do what you feel to be right. You say that you still feel bounts of love from her. Go with that. Make small jestures. Very small just to let her know you still care. Because if the worst does happen...you will always be able to say and feel that you did try. Don't move on too quickly.......you could end up in a rebound situation and being responsible for hurting someone else.<BR>Cherish your days and take a deep breath it is the only thing you can control.<BR>

Thank you all so much for your thoughts. Just as with my family and friends, your opinions run the gamut. I truly still feel the love I have for her. I am so concerned not just about our marriage, but about her as well. One thing I left out was that the therapist we were seeing placed my wife on Paxil for what he diagnosed as a depression. While I believe that was a wise decision, I also feel that unfortunately it hurt our overall situation, because she did not start taking the medication until after she left. What I saw was that once the medication began to work, she read it more as "I made the right decision to leave and already I am feeling better", when in fact it was the medication giving her the balance she was missing for so long.<P>How long can I go on? I feel that with God's strength and love I can continue for as long as it takes. But it is so difficult when I hear family members who were once so positive, start telling me to accept the situation and "move on". I do accept where I am, and I am fully aware of the possible outcomes. I try not to let my situation hold me back as much as I can. I go out with friends, am meeting other people and doing the things I have always wanted to do(but was too held back by my own feelings to do them - Turns out they are also things that my wife always wanted to do with me). <P>When we are/were together (which has been a long while) and we temporarily forgot the stress of our problems, the incredible friendship we had, always came to the top. But I noticed that once my wife "caught" herself having fun, she would quickly "close down" and retreat. So when you all speak of her lack of trust for me, I agree 100%.<P>You mention that our problems did not just appear and that it took a long time to get to the point where she left. Thank you for reminding me of that. Its something that I tend to forget. I know that I just can't expect things to change back overnight - I guess it is just so hard being alone. Not completely alone - I know that God, my friends and my family are there for me, but rather its the loneliness that comes from not having that special person in your life.<P>I worry so much for her as well. These past few months have helped me grow so much. It helped put my life back in order and to re-align my priorities. It has also brought back my faith. But, my wife only seems to be running (again). She spoke of needing independence from me and from her father, but she continues to take money from him and is living expense free with a relative down south. My wife and this relative are extremely close. I feel that he is filling up her need for closeness right now which also hurts our relationship. I believe that if she had to move out on her own, the loneliness might have begun to work on her, and her need for independence would have been met. Unfortunately, she is one that usually only puts bandaids on her wounds, rather than trying to heal the true hurt.<P>As you can see there are many factors that are out of my control with this situation. It is those factors that I have come to accept and have placed in God's hands. The bottom line is that I still do love her and I feel that while she made a decision to persue a divorce, she is still so confused, and I truly believe that deep down she still loves me. <P>I have been in a couple other serious relationships in my life and when they ended, although it hurt a lot, I knew they were over and I knew we lost the love we once had. But this time it is different - I can honestly say I still feel the love between us - the angry comments and insults have disapated over the past couple months. Whether its because we have not been talking alot about our situation, I don't know. All I do know is that we are at the point again where we can at least laugh and joke together. All I can do now is place my faith in God.<P>I have been debating to send her flowers for a recent advancement she made with her teaching career. Your posts here have helped me make up my mind - I am going to do it. Don't expect much from it, but I guess as long as I stay true to my feelings, I can't go wrong. Right????<P>If(when) she comes back, I know the troubles will not be over. I know the feelings we both have will need to be worked on for a long time. But, I truly believe that as long as we keep true to God, He will help us both heal as individuals and as a couple.<P>I still just can't believe this is all happening. Being 29yrs old, the thought of being divorced is so hard to bear. Sure I know I am young and have my whole life ahead of me, but the thought of not having my wife in my life is such a source of sorrow.<P>Thanks again for your thoughts.