I just have a quick question that I hope someone out there with a step child can answer. I'm just about divorced now and my soon to be ex had a child with her previous husband. I met her during her separation while she was waiting for those divorce papers to be signed and was with her for the last thirteen years. At that time her son was just three years old and I stepped in and became the father figure for him. We've had a fairly decent relationship during that whole time and now that his mother is divorcing me I rarely see him anymore being that he is sixteen now, has a girlfriend and his own social circle. His mother has lectured to me about my moral obligation to him (this coming from a woman whose walked out on two husbands now) she has the audacity to preach to me about moral obligations.<BR> I guess my question is this, what, if any, is my moral obligation to my step son. I mean, no I haven't been seeing him much because I've been trying to get my own life back on track. I can barely function on my own let alone try to keep in constant contact with him. I do love him and I still call him and see a movie with him on occasion but where do I draw the line about what is my obligation to him and my biological daughter? Is my wife justified in her attempts to try and make me feel guilty because I spend more time with my daughter than with her son? Some insight would certainly be appreciated. Thanks. Jax

You have no moral, legal, or ethical obligation to him.<P>The only obligation that you have is based on your feelings for him that you have built over the last 13 years. If you love him and care about him as a person, then continue whatever relationship feels right.<P>This is totally your call.

I agree with Still Praying. I have step-children from a previous marriage and they were little when I came into their lives. Although you have no obligation to continue a relationship with them, remember them.<P>They are the ones hurt and they do not deserve to be punished. If you had a good relationship with him, continue to see him. At 16 he is old enough to make that choice. Just open a door for him and let him know you would like to see him - if that is the case. Do not do so if you would rather not. Do not set the kid up for another blow...<P>You may be surprized at the benefits you will reap from staying in this guys life. Good luck.

If you had a good relationship with him I think it would be extremely admirable of you to continue a relationship with him. Especially if his bio dad isn't involved in his life. Having a male role model is very important to him. And just think, if he grows up to be a wonderful young man you'll get to take a lot of credit for that!

Thanks for the replies, I was thinking along those lines myself and it helped to get some re-enforcement of those thoughts. Yes his bio dad is still very much a part of his life and as a matter of fact I still talk to his bio dad. He at one time even offered me an ear if I ever needed anyone to talk to having been through the same thing I'm going through and with the same woman. Thanks again. Jax

I have a similar situation, just on the other side of it.<P>I had four children from previous marriage when my H and I got married. The oldest was already sort of out on his own (now 21), but likes my H immensely. My now 17 y.o. has had HUGE conflicts with my H and it's safe to say they can hardly stand each other -- he's now living in a group home after graduating from boot camp and will probably never live back in our house. He and I have a very good relationship, however. <P>Then there are the 15 y.o and the 9 y.o. They were younger when H and I got together and they have definite emotional attachments to H. It seems that H has attachment to them, too, but recently has been unable/unwilling to really let them know or offer to spend any time with them. I know they are hurting over this separation, too. I can't force my H to stay involved with them when they are not his kids, but what CAN I do?<P>Love and prayers,<BR>KristyAnn

KristyAnn,<P>You can't force a father to stay any more involved than he wants to with his children even if they are his. Children, whether they are biological, adopted, or step, are primarily an "obligation" to many men, and/or a possession. They may or may not enjoy spending time with their kids, but the vast majority of them do not feel the physical pain that most mothers do when they are separated from their kids. For most men, their kids are no longer as important to them when they are no longer involved with their mother. I am not at all sure that men are capable of unconditional love.

Nellie,<P>You comments about men and children reflects your very bad experience, but they sure do offend me and I am sure many other fathers on this board. Have you noticed that many of the fathers posting are raising the children, not the mothers? That when the father is the betrayer or the betrayed that it is the children that is keeping them with their W's.<P>You statement is not only offensive, but it is wrong.<P>I truely hope that your situation improves and that somehow God can soften your heart, but your experience is not proof of how all men act any more than your actions or feelings represent how most women behave.<P>Please take some time and reflect on all you have been through, surely you have learned something other than hatred.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

I specifically used the words "many" or "most" because I know there are exceptional men who post on this site, to whom children are everything. My father was also such a man - and I foolishly assumed that he was typical. It is not only my H who has emotionally withdrawn from his children - I read about it over and over and over again on various boards. It is true that some women also desert their children, but the percentage is far lower. On the average, women, even those who leave for an OP, see far more of their children than men who leave for an OP. <P>I do not feel hatred - just immense sadness at the realization that for many men, their attachment to their children dwindles, at best, along with their attachment to their wife. <P>And I do not understand how you could now refer to you stepson in terms of "obligation" - what difference does it make whether or not you are legally or morally obligated to him. If you loved him like a father when you were with your wife, then I do not understand how you could feel any differently now.

I happen to agree with Nellie. I don't think many, most, alot, whatever word you want to use,men have the level of emotional attachment to other human beings that women do. It is simply an observation. We, as a society, can't do something about this problem until we identify it first. The fact is, most deadbeat parents are dads. Sorry, that IS the fact, and I'm not sexist for saying so. No offense to any of the wonderful fathers on this board. I'm thrilled to see progress in this area, and hope they can set an example and mentor other men in similar situations. <P>ok, back to the subject. When you married this woman, she came with a child. What kind of message would you like this kid to receive? a) this man who was with my mom for 13 yrs. really didn't care about me at all. I was only an extension of her...<P>OR b) This man who was with my mom for 13 years really does love me to go out of his way to spend time with me, even though my mom and him aren't together anymore. <BR>

Oh! TS, <P>Please give me a break. You cannot be a deadbeat parent unless you are the non-custodial parent paying child support. Since most of the time the W gets the children no matter how she has acted, that means that the large majority of men are the non-custodial parent paying child support. Therefore, there is no doubt that if anyone fails to pay child support, it will almost always be the male. Duh! Give me a break.<P>As for the "most" men stuff, wake up. It isn't true and you both know it. But in divorce the mother almost always gets the children and then often remarries, all the ex H is left with is the child support payment.<P>It does tend to cool things down. And don't give me the, well if I were in their shoes stuff, because you are not. Having your children taken away is a very or a court severely limiting how often you can see them, does hurt and it hurts deeply, male or female.<P>Finally, for your information before this or more correctly last centuty, when the marriage split up, the men got the children and raised them. Were happy to do it and only in the 1920's or so did the courts start to award the women the children. Date may be off but the switch occured in that period.<P>So the arguement that men don't love children is simply not true. I have lived too long in too many places and know too many divorces to even begin to swallow that garbage. As for viewing children as an obligation you bet your --- we do. We are obligated to take care of them, just as women are. It is just that our obligation often extends to financial obligations as well.<P>TS you are right about one thing, people need to discuss the issues of men in society, but the discussion so far as been limited to stupid things like is Testosterone bad or not. And then covered with the feminist BS about how all men are bad and we need to change them. Nevermind that have the world is half made up of women,and they mess up in life are a pretty good rate as well. Wouldn't you agree?<P>Nellie, it is not me who is deciding about the step child, but just remember this many men raise children by OM as well as step children. Read Harley's articles on this topic. <P>What you two ladies seem to miss is that we approach things differently, but just because we do doesn't mean that "most" men just want to possess children or view them a simply an obligation to get rid of. It isn't true. In fact if any group truely views children as their personal possession and a definition of who they are it is women.<P>Enough said.<P> God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<P>From the statistics that I have read, it is far more common for men to remarry than for women to do so. <P>In many, many, cases it is NOT the court who limits visitation. Many men, including my H, do not see their children anywhere near as often as "minimum" visitation would allow. I remember reading somewhere that within a few years, many men are seeing their children once a year or less. <P>Frank Pittman also pointed out that the relationship between children and their father is often a function of the relationship between the mother and father, and if that ends, so often ends the relationship between father and child. <P>I do think many men do not feel unconditional love for their children. I certainly did not mean to imply that men view their children as obligations to get rid of - quite the contrary; I think that many men view their children as obligations for which they are responsible - but that does not necessarily generate a nurturing relationship, where the child feels loved no matter what. <P>I agree that many women do define themselves first and foremost as "mother" - and I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I wish that more men defined themself first and foremost as "father". It is no coincidence that "fathering" a child means something entirely different from "mothering" a child. I disagree that women, in general, view their children as personal possessions - it is far more common for women to view them, especially when they are young, as part of themselves. Certainly when my babies were nursing, it often felt like it was hard to tell where I ended and the baby began. And if women did not feel such a strong emotional and physical attachment to their babies, the human race would not have survived. <P>I would not expect the relationship between father and child to be an exact duplicate of the relationship between mother and child. But what I was not prepared for is that when, for many men, when the strength of the relationship between parents decreases, good, caring fathers withdraw from their children, act as if the children are responsible for maintaining the relationship between father and child, act as if visitation is a privilege for the children, rarely call their children, and see their children infrequently and/or briefly - and there are many men who disappear out of their children's lives all together.

JL,<BR>You and I have gotten into this subject a zillion times before. I don't think men are evil. I DO think the traditional way that men have been raised and how they are behaving (whether it is nature or nurture, who knows?) does not serve themselves or women, or their children anymore. So, this is the reason we are having this discussion. <P>I don't appreciate your not-so-subtle inference about my personal situation. (i.e. Nevermind that have the world is half made up of women,and they mess up in life are a pretty good rate as well. Wouldn't you agree?) You know as well as I do that my ex was a lazy a**hole when it came to our marriage, or don't you believe that? I don't think you do. Oh well. I've been coming here long enough to know I'm not going to change your mind about that. <P>Actually, I'm more hurt than mad. THIS is the exact reason I plan on lying about my life if I ever date again. No one, I don't care how well intentioned, is going to do this to me, especially someone like you who has supposedly seen first hand what I've gone through. As of now, I will choose not to respond to any your posts, and I hope you will not respond to mine. Take care.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited August 31, 2000).]

I feel I need to address an issue which has not been stated.<P>It is not whether men or women are "better parents". We all should agree that CHILDREN of a marriage,either legal or common law...(and I do not want to get into the side issue of other forms of family) need a mother and father, if that is how they were conceived. <P>What I understand is that where infedility is involved, the WS , historically it was usually the father, but increasingly more so gender non-specific, is the parent who does not want the responsibility of raising the children....and where a MLC is in the works, then the responsibility and obligation towards the children go right out the door.<P>So I take issue with all the arguements. This is not about mothers or fathers, this is about a personal crisis...and the spouse in crisis is so busy with their own lives, they cannot see the rest of the world, including their own children"s needs.<P>I believe that all our spouses going through this, in some way DO love their children, but it is an abstract love, not a caring and involved love and therin lies our disappontments, anger etc, in the Disney dads and party moms.<P>Through this crisis I also beleive our spouses have a hard time even understanding what parental love is ...especially where teens are concerned (LOL) as they are sp busy mirroring love to op and this "in love" feeling which is not the same as parental love or the love they felt for us...ie it is not the romantic love which they are inthe throws of.<P>Just my opinion

willbok,<BR>What you said really is the root of all this. Being "in love" vs. being loving. I agree that it is not about men vs. women.

Hi guys...Just thought you might like another opinion on this matter....<P>I worked for 3 years in superior court in marital law...and this is my 3rd marriage with 7 children involved so I feel like I have a pretty objective view on this subject. <P>In court I have seen both parents be totally neglectful of their children and both parents totally committed to raise their children with as much love and opportunity as possible.<P>JL, you are right. Most times the children are awarded to the mother no matter what unless the H can prove abuse or neglect...so therefore, they are on the visitation end of it and are portrayed to be unloving, uncaring human beings. I have seen many mothers do anything possible not to let the father have visitation or be any part of the childs life at all...some get tired of fighting and unfortunately the courts don't do much to support the parents that are trying to prove contempt...once the abusing parent sees this they ignore everything including arrest warrents...even brought in they usually just get a slap on the wrist and are told not to do it again...it gets very expensive for the parent that keeps having to file contemp charges....<P>As for my personal life, my first husband has cut off my daughter from her support, her medical insurance and her college money because she came to visit me in California this summer....<P>My second husband has not paid support since I have been divorced and only wanted to see my son when he was old enough to entertain himself...he stayed with his dad for a couple of weeks this summer while I was gone and his dad left about 6 in the morning and returned about 11 at night...he left him unattended with nothing to do and after promising me that he would make sure he got to football practice I had to send him home with his 20 and 17 year old sisters to make sure he had food and was getting where he needed to be.<P>On the otherhand, my present H is the best father I have ever seen...to his children and mine...he wants to be there for them and pays his share and more with no complaints....he truly is a father in every sense of the word. I wish my dad had been like him.<P>You will always find instances where there is someone who will not live up to his or her role...father's take a bad rap sometimes...but then there are those who deserve every rap they get....and I say that in love! <P>God Bless you all and I pray that we all live up to the roles we have chosen...

Jax,<P>Your situation, is not that unique. Step parent dad or bio dad, step parent mom or bio mom, 16 year olds are self centered. They don't spend as much time as they had in the past with anyone representing their parents age group. Cars, dating, hormones. All we parents take it personally when they choose to not spend as much time with us as in the past. Remember when it didn't feel cool to hang out with mom and dad?<P>I wouldn't think your situation would require you thinking you'd have to find a place "to draw the line regarding your obligation". We people who have had parents we didn't share blood with could tell you many happy stories because they chose to continue to be part of our life. They hung in there waiting for us to mature. Take the guilt trip if you've earned it (from mom), if not, do your best with what time you two guys DO get together.<P>Peace to all,<BR>Ragamuffin

Jax,<P>I certainly didn't mean to highjack your thread with the father/mother stuff. I apologize! <P>You do have a difficult situation, but I think you should do what you can to help step-son out. He will need interaction with males or someone stable for that matter. You said his bio-father is in his life and that is good, but I suspect that he will come to appreciate that you stayed in his life as he gets older.<P>At 16 kids are pretty self-centered, but they are very very vulnerable. Having you available to call and talk to, will undoubtably be a great comfort for him,even if he doesn't admit it.<P>I think Ragamuffin gave you good advice.<P>Jax, as you know there are two types of obligations, legal ones and moral ones. Technically, you have neither to this young man. I suspect what you are responding to is not your step-son, but your W's demands that you be in his life. I'll bet you expect to hear next that you morally should be financially responsible for him although she has bailed on you and the marriage.<P>My recommendation! Ignor her, see this boy as often as possible, make contact via phone or email more often. You are not his bio father, but you are the man that helped raise and shape him, so don't leave the project half done. You will be happy with yourself if you do. As for your W, what can I say?<P>Finally, I will say this. The teenage years are pretty scary to teenagers, never mind the parent. Be there for that boy.<P>Let me tell you about a recent experience I had. I was in Europe for a meeting, waiting in the airport for a flight back to the West Coast. I was sitting in a crowded waiting area to board, when this boy kind of comes up to me. Why me I don't know, there were plenty of other people, men and women, on this flight. Anyway he starts to ask about boarding passes and what he needs to show.<P>I ask him if he has ever flown alone before, and he says no, but he is flying to CA to see his father. The boy is somewhere between 12-14 years old. He is very very nervous, so I ask him where he is sitting and tell him when he boards I will come by and check on him. I do and let the flight attendant know the situation with this young man.<P>I check on him during the 11 hour flight and he comes to check on where I am sitting. There person sitting next to me asks if I know him, I tell him no I don't but he seemed awfully frightened in the terminal. The person who happened to be German was suprised that somehow this young man had attached himself to me. Frankly I was also.<P>Anyway, we get to SF, I wait for the young man, guide him through customs, and out to meet his father. Meanwhile, my older son was there to meet me. We connected and then helped the young man find his father. Now the interesting part of this shaggy dog story was my sons reaction. It surprised him somehow that this boy had attached himself to me, but I think he was kind of proud that I had helped this boy.<P>So the message to you is that you may help your D learn what a responsible parent is as much by how you treat your step son as how you take care of her. Kids do watch their parents for clues.<P>It is entirely possible that I helped my son, more than I helped that young man on the airplane.<P>Think about it.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

The Student,<P>I am sorry that you took the innocent question "Wouldn't you agree?" to mean that I was in any way attacking you or making a statement about your exH. I was not.<P>I believe if you go back and read my posts to you for over a year now, I have never attacked you. I wasn't attacking you here either. I was objecting to Nellie's all inclusive statement about men. And you commnets in her support. I stand by that objection.<P>I will miss interacting with you, but it is clearly your option.<P>Sorry,<P>JL

JL,<P>Your airplane experience is one great example of what I believe in and continue to practice every chance I get.<P>I gave birth to two but many called me mom during their teenage years and still DO now that they are now getting married and having babies of their own. As a matter of fact I heard myself referred to as "my other mom" last Saturday night from a bride. No one forgets loving kindness, a friendly ear or just silent support standing by their side.<P>Open arms and a loving heart are not gender or "blood" specific. My son and daughter respect and care for many males that didn't contribute to their biology and smile with pride when they share their mom with others!<P>Living by example to others' children IS my moral obligation no matter how difficult my life may seem at the time!<P>Love and kindness to you all,<BR>Ragamuffin<P><BR>