How can the betrayers walk around like they did no wrong..? <P>what makes these people think *they deserve* more or (what they think is) better then us..? THIS IS SO WRONG!!!!!!<P>how can they even look at them selves in the mirror? and live with them selves.. HOW DO THEY DO IT?<P>who do they think they are??? <P>what could possibly be better then to take what you have and turn it around, and be able to say, we made it.. we did it. we are one.. and no one can come between us ever again..<P>why don`t they see the magnifisence in what it would feel like to be able to concure what ever came our way..<P><BR>why do they choose to run from reality??<P>AV<BR> <P>

.<p>[This message has been edited by Trapped Mom (edited March 21, 2001).]

thanks trapped mom,<P>I can not beleive it has been almost two yrs, and I can not get over this.. and I will never understand, the reasons why..? I think if he ever did try and explain, he would be affraid I`d have all the answers for us, and he is right.. because there is no dame good reason for what he chose to do.. and my heart is never going to heal... it is to broken, crushed, and he has detroyed beleifs in what a good relationship is/was.. <P>I now hate/love!! this man, and I don`t even know why any more..<P>I still cry, as if it were yesterday that he lfet.. it is the wourst pain, I have ever had to endure.. and I wish it would stop.. but I don`t for see any releif, any time soon.. <P>to know the man I love so much, once had a bond with, and a child with, is now with some one else.. is just too much to live with..<P>this is a life time of torture.. and I don`t beleive this is what god had in store for me.. that just can`t be.. why wold he want us to suffer like this.. why?? that just doesn`t make sence..<P>I`m sorry.. I am just not a beleiver any more.. there is no god.. (and please no religious lectures.. I have had it with hearing that he`ll come to save me one day..) <P>my mom and dad divrced, and she has never been the same either.. she still suffers, from so many things it is too long to list.. this just *destroys your whole soul..<P>sorry I sound so down.. but thats because I am.. this is just too hard to bare.. it is not his loss, it is mine.. I lost...<P>I lost my H, and I lost my dream, and to me, now I havelost my life.. the only thing that ever made me happy.. having a family and growing together.. all because H, couldn`t handle emotional stress, instead, he chose to run away.. <P>I`ll never get it..<P>AV<P>

AV,<P>Reading your post just broke my heart. Two years is a long time to still feel this way. I hope you can someday soon find closure to this. I know all to well the pain of having your life long companion now sharing his life with someone else. I'm working really hard on moving forward. I have no desire to date again for awhile but I can't and I won't let his indiscretions ruin my whole life. <P>Are you in counseling? If not that may help, just to talk it out helps. I really think this is far worse than the death of a spouse. If my H had died I could go forward knowing I loved him ect. Now its like he is dead to me except that I still have to see him, hear about him ect. <P>This really sucks don't it?<P>Jill

AV,<P>I am sure that someone will come along and try to restore your faith in god, but it will not be me. I have been an atheist since I was a child, so this did not destroy my faith in god, but it did destroy my faith in human nature. You are right - it is not their loss, it is ours, and even more importantly our children's. The betrayers end up with everything they wanted - seeing their children whenever they want but never having to take any responsibility for them when it is inconvenient, companionship, more money because they get a two-income household while leaving their spouse and children in poverty, control because they get to have equal input in all important decisions regarding the kids but they don't have to deal with the day to day decisions.<P>I personally would not recommend counseling based on the three counselors my H and I saw together and the one I saw myself. The vast majority of counselors are pro-divorce, and most of them are divorced themselves. I fired my counselor (politely) when after I had been there three times she said, "You wouldn't want him back, would you?" Well, DUH! People who believe in divorce and who believe that love is transient seem to be totally incapable of understanding those of us who married until death do us part. <p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited September 03, 2000).]

Jill,<P>yes two yrs is a long time.. but I know in my heart I will *never* get over this, or be able to forgive this man.. <P>I told him the moment we went out, that I knew he was the one for me, my soul mate.. I had never felt that with any one, (we met at age 32, he was 40)<P>he did show signs way back when we first met of not being able to handle the stresses that life brings, but Of course (as we all do think) we, (him and I) would be better then any one else and we would be the exception and different.. we would become that perfect couple, that got along oh so well.. well what did I learn from this.. NOT!! <P><BR>and yes, it is having to see him every other day.. having him call my house, (beeps my daugher, so he doesn`t have to talk to me!!!) and listen to them have a conversation.. with my kid relaying the messages all wrong sometimes, but of course I can`t stop what goes on between *them..*<P><BR>I thank you for your responce.. and yes I do need to go talk to some one.. I know this.. but I also feel I get to talk all day, to alot of different people, w/different perspectives where I work, and the fact is there is no help for what or how I feel.. there is no answers or resolving what is going on, so it is a loss.. my loss.. <P>I do want to move forward and I do have my days that I feel like I am moving forward, but things keep coming back to haunt me, and it all makes me revert back and go nuts inside.. BUT! I am working on it beleive it or not.. I know this thread sounds so glumey, but each hour is still so very different to me.. one min I am quiet, the next I am tearing, the next I am saying to my self screw him, the next I am walking tall and saying I am going to live a better life then he could ever imagine or live.. the next I am tearing again.. it is an emotional roller coaster.. and it just won`t stop.. <P><BR>Nellie1<P>I am an athiest too.. always have been, I have never beleived, and most likely never will.. as I said, my mom turned to god when my dad left, and nothing has changed for her.. nothing.. she is very religious, but she has nothing else.. no man in her life, for a very long time, so she hasn`t been touched by a human being (in that special way)which is sad in it self and she is poor, (my dad had the money for a better lawyer) and she struggles each mth to get by.. and her kids.. don`t have it to help her either.. my siblings all make decent money, but nothing to brag about.. it is so sad and shamful..<P>I also know that feeling about what goes on in these kids lives on a daily basis, and then the betrayer spouse calls and he gets to hear everything we had to handle.. we had to help them with, we had to deal with alone.. and they get to pick them up and have their little talk, give them a lift and then leave.. what a world.. <P><BR>some spouses *are* lucky enough to have their WA spouses very involved, to a point, that even that may be a disaster.. I`m not sure which is better either.. I`m sure each situaiton has its ups and downs..<BR>so if you think about it, what did they really leave...? the problems are sometimes now even wourse.. if you disagreed before, this only emphasizes the situation.. <P>there is no easy way.. only their way.. <P>

AV,<P>Perhaps unfortunately, in my case my H does not have to hear of anything that goes on day to day with the kids. He talks to them mainly about superficial stuff, and then only when he sees them, since he has only called them 3 or 4 times in a year and a half. <P>I doubt very much that this will ever get better. I do know that this week I am going to go apply for welfare and go to the food bank. I will never be able to support my children on my salary alone. I spent too many years out of the workforce, or only working part-time. I make decent money, but there are so many of the very rich here that drive up housing costs to more than my entire income, and I have no one with whom to share the costs.

Nellie1,<P>I`m so sorry...!! I feel so terrible and I`m not even related!! there is no other family to turn to for help?? did you not go to a lawyer? I wish I knew how to help you..<P>I will most likely be in the same situation as you, in time.. right now, my ex has signed the negociations, as to a 4 yr matenence.. and after that, I`m on my own too.. and I do work full time, but it is not enough to carry my house alone, so I will have to sell, move, and settle for alot less.. but I do have my family, who will help me through this. (not financially) but tohelp me make the right dicission.. <P><BR>I don`t understand how these people can get away with this.. allowing (you) the other spouse and KIDS!! to live like that, and suffer like that.. it is just terrible...!!! just dispicable..!!!<P>I don`t even know what to say.. I am amazed that these slims leave and have no clue to what real honest to goodness humanity is any more..<P><BR>Nellie.. I am on this computer, every sparing minute, lurking and reading, to help me through this.. this site and others have given me the strength to keep going, (my daughter is the most important of all of course) but I came here 2 yrs ago.. and I still come here.. <P>if you ever need some one to turn to.. I am here for you.. promise.. I know that feeling of despare, oh so well.. and I wish I could give you a hug right now, and tell you everything is going to be alright.. thats what I feel we all need, are human hugs.. meaningful ones..sincere ones... and alot of them.. <P>it is a true and known fact that the human touch is the greatest cure of all.. <P>{{{{HUGS}}} to you Nellie1<P>I`ll be around.. <P>AV<BR> <P>

AV,<P>I tried to post to you yesterday, but when I hit SUBMIT, I got a message saying the board was down for maintenance (again). <P>My H is paying child support, but it is hardly anything because he is unemployed. It just seems so unfair - for quite awhile a few years back we were kind of hoping he'd be laid off so we could have six months of severance pay to live on while starting our own business. Every few months his company laid people off, but never him. Now, he changes companies (probably to be farther away from us, because it was only marginally closer to the OW), and almost immediately gets laid off, with almost no severance pay. And now he can't find a new job, even though the job market has never been better. And one of my kids can't get additional financial aid from her college, apparently because they think he should be able to find a job.

Nellie1<P>I know this was down last night.. I was home and on my self.. it was raining here so D and I sat home..<P>are you sure he isn`t working some where off the books..? beleive me, it`s been done.. <P>so how does he survive? and I`m sorry but I do not know your story.. (and sometimes even if I did I get peoples situations confused!!there is so many to read about here!!) but if you own a house together, wouldn`t the courts allow you to stay and he has to pay half of everything?? and if he couldn`t now, wouldn`t that mean he`d owe you back pay? <P><BR>this is all stuff you need to ask a lawyer about.. did you go to a lawyer? I know you have to know there is free consultation the first time around.. most will answer any questions you have concern about.. and thats a good way to start and be ahead of the game.. <P><BR>you should not have to live like that nellie.. there has to be another answer.. HE HAS TO BE RESPONCIBLE.. isn`t it concidered a dead beat dad, if not? they go after these guys, if they neglect their families.. <P>CS is one thing, but he also has to provide a roof over heads!!! this is another.. THERE HAS TO BE A WAY... <P><BR>I gotta run for now.. I`ll be back later.. <P>AV<P>

I do have a lawyer. According to the terms of the temporary orders, I do get to stay in the house, but I have to pay for everything. In this state he is not required to pay anything other than child support, and since he is paying that, he is not a deadbeat dad. If he gets a full-time, permanent job the the child support will be recomputed, but there is nothing to stop him from getting temporary or part-time work. The courts do not require him to contribute to the kids' college education unless he is making plenty of money. <P>Although he does have a fair amount of debt, he does not have to worry about having a roof over his head, because he is living with the OW and her kids.

Nellie1,<P>by law, over here in New York, if the wife is not able to fend for her self, they give you three (minimum) to 6 yrs (maximum) to get your self a better job, and get on your feet on the ground.. thats give you time to go to school, so you will learn a new trade.. I don`t get the laws by you, that is so rediculous...!!!!! where do you live?? I feel this should be a given in any womans case.. that is outragious... how terrible.. I wish I knew what to tell you.. I only know what my lawyer tells me.. and I truely thought that this was something they do any where.. (thats how nieeve` I am...)<P>I hope in time, everything works out for you.. I feel so bad.. I am not making half of what I thought I would.. but I am in no way struggling, (yet) there will cme a time that he no longer has to deal with me, and only his daughter.. and thats when my life will take a tramatic change.. I have three and a half yrs left in matinence.. then he still continues paying CS until her college yrs..<P>my dad helped to get me a riase in economy each yr, for both matinenece and CS.. so suring the whole ten yrs he`ll pay CS I get raises.. <P>you have to understand though.. my ex makes a tremendous amount of money, he can hhide alot more then he shows too. it is an all cash flow kind of business.. and my dad sat down with him and told him don`t play games with him, he knows what he can afford and what he won`t do, thats the difference.. so in essence, my ex was put on a spot with my dad, and respects my dad, enough, to listen to him.. (the ex won`t talk to me what so ever!!) <P>It`s really a comedy, though.. I was the one left, cheated on, lied to, and dumped, for his self indulgences.. and I am now treated like I am the bad guy.. what a laugh..<P>I just recently went to his OW`s house, to talk to her H, for the first time, because, the ex and the ow (who still is married!!) have now involved my daughter in their deciet.. and my ex is showing her how to lie to her mom, and to HAVE TO deal with this woman who he left her mom for, and live with it.. while they are sneaking around!!!! I was livid when I found out.. and for the frist time, I took a stand for my daughter.. because she wasn`t going to do it for her slef, she was a affraid of loosing her dads visitation, if she denied him his OW.. she was affraid he would yell at her if she showed any negativness.. he out her in a possition, and back her up against a wall.. that was uncalled for and very unfair.. it was unexceptable to me..<P>this woman walks around bragging about what a great relationship she has with her (grown/now married) daughter, and she does this to MY KID!!! well sorry.. but NOT!!!!<P>this is his latest lame excuse, to make me out to be the witch of the west.. and you know what.. to dame bad this time.. I sat back and took his lieing and deciet, towards me, but he AIN`T going to do this to my daughter.. <P>I wish I was a man for just five minutes, so I could tied him up and force him to listen to me, for what he is doing to our daughters head.. he is not being a good roll model.. and he is getting away with murder.. literally.. a murder of two souls who loved this (now) peace oF SH__! <P>All for what.. this hussy who is still married.. well now her H is aware of their wrong doings.. and I hope he does a No. on the two of them.. will serve him right...<P>sorry I get carried so away.. because I am never going to get over this.. he has taken the two people who loved him the most, and destroyed our lives.. <P>I lost my self in this mess.. once again.. I`m sorry nellie1.. I wish I had some good advise for you.. i wish you well.. and hope things do turn out for the better some day.. <P>for us all...<P>AV<P>

AV,<P>Unfortunately, in my state, alimony is not often awarded when there is child support. It makes no difference that he gets to share expenses with someone and I have to pay everything myself. In fact, he may end up only having to support 3 of the children, since the guidelines don't deal with larger families, and it is up to the court's discretion. <P>Unfortunately, the federal poverty guidelines are nationwide, and if you live in a state where housing is expensive, you are basically scr**ed. I spend over fifty percent of my income, including child support, on the mortgage payment, and it would be almost impossible to find something to rent that was not a great deal more expensive. There is near full employment in field in my H's field, but not, apparently, for older people.

Nellie1<P>that really sucks.. I`m so sorry for you.. I was just thinking, wouldn`t i be nice if you could hire a lawyer that fought the system, and chaged the laws.. what a world huh!<P>well as I said, I hope in time everything works out for you and your kids... it is his loss either way.. they are the improtant ones and they will know how hard it was for you and appreciate you more as *the* parent, then they ever will HIIM!<P>this is the end result, and the best part of the end result.. it may be yrs before any releif comes our way, but we are the true bluers.. the ones that live in realiy.. we (the betrayed) are the better and stronger species..!!!<P>you are in my thoughts Nellie.. you take care..<P>AV

an up date:<P>seems my ex`s OW, got a little lecture from her H, and then some!! <P>my ex then called his lawyer, who called my lawyer to make trouble for me with both lawyers.. made up a story, only half true, so I set my lawyer straight, told him the whole (true) story.. and that was that..<P>also told my lawyer, I want my ex to have my cs/m forwarded from his accounts to mine.. He gets vindictive financially, if any waves have been thrown at him.. POOR THING!! he just can`t handle the truth..!!<P>I told my lawyer, this is the main problem, and when this D is over I do not want the rest of our (payment days) to be one big court issue after this.. I want it reconciled now!<P>he agreed and said he will bring up the moral issue as well again.. <P><BR>the thing that I got out of this, is my ex now knows not to ever take advantage or for granted of me or my daughter again.. he wants to feel in control.. and that is fine and dandy, if it only involves him self...<BR>but not when it comes to our daughter.. thats when *I* can step in and *do* have my say..<P>well hopfully he next time I hear anything it will be coming to the signing of the final ending of this crapola..!<P>AV<P>

AV,<P>I know mainly you and Nellie are conversing here, so I hope you don't mind if I jump in. I agree with a lot of what you said. I have been dealing with my situation for 16 months now. And I don't feel any better either. My whole life was taken away from me and my ex seems to wonder why I can't just "let it go" like he did. If only it were that easy. How can I go on? How can I continue to believe in love or marriage when after 15 years he can just walk out the door? There are days when this still just doesn't seem real. And then it hits me. I really hate the way things are now. Ex never helps out any more than he has to. I get stuck buying ALL the clothes, shoes, school supplies, medical bills for the kids, but HE has 2 incomes now with him and OW. And he complains that he never has any money. If only he could walk in my shoes for a while. I know, just like you do, that I will never get over this. It will haunt me for the rest of my life. I will never allow myself to have a close relationship again. I don't want to go through this again. I no longer trust people or their promises. When the person you love and trust the most does this to you, it destroys any trust you ever had. As far as god goes, the jury's still out for me. I certainly don't believe the conventional christian idea of god. I think if it does exist, it's entirely uninterested in me or my problems. Does that even make sense? Oh well, it does to me. I have realized that I'm on my own. There is no crutch, no one to fall back on. Just me. There are days I wish I didn't exist anymore. Only my kids keep me going.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com