Xman (and JL if you wanna know),<BR>I didn't want to continue this on Jax's thread, but here is why I don't think it is good for me to continue the cyber-sparring with JL (bless his heart). Both of us have been coming here a long time. He has said some very nice things to me in the past, and for that I am grateful. However, he and I have some disagreements. I could live with a few disagreements, however, coming from someone who has witnessed the evolution of my life the past couple of years, it is especially painful. Many of the things he says to me just confirm my belief that I should lie in the future. I'm very conflicted about this. I would like very much to be honest about my life, however, I'm also very realistic about how our society is. Even good people, like him, who've been here throughout my ordeal believe my ex had a "right" to divorce me. (JL once said "he had a right to divorce you, and he exercised that right") Well, as far as I'm concerned, my ex was an accessory to my crime. If being honest means he has a "right" to do anything, than I just won't be honest. It is very simple. <P>JL has also told me in the past that I "screwed up my marriage". Let's see, I think it was "you made a bad choice for your first marriage, and you screwed up your second marriage". So, when he alluded to "women screwing up their lives. Wouldn't you agree?" *I* remembered what he said before. Just one of the big 'ol bummers about being smart. I've got a pesky way of remembering long-distant conversations. <P>I won't reguritate all of the things my ex said and did. JL knows what they are, yet he still says stuff like this. Even me writing this is kinda pointless. I cheated, therefore, everything I say is justification and I don't get to have an opinion. Well, that is why I will lie in the future. Nobody knows what I did to save my marriage and nobody really cares. All they see is my adultery. That is why I will probably lie when the time comes. <P>Something interesting I've discovered. When I lie about certain things, or fail to disclose certain things, I tend to learn about how people really feel. See, when I'm honest,most just lie to me about what they think, cause they don't want to hurt my feelings. It is quite interesting. Once in awhile, if I don't care that much about their opinion, I'll fess up just so they can be embarrassed or to make them go away. It works like a charm.

Ok TS,<P>Not sure what the Sam Hell is going on here between you and JL or Jax. At least I didn't do it, so that's a plus.<P>Just want to let you know that there is someone that cares about you and how you feel.<P>I attacked you once and am truly sorry for that. That's not why I am here. Hope you have forgiven me.<P>Just wanted to let you know.<P>Zip

Medic,<BR>There is nothing between Jax and I. Just didn't want to hog his thread. <P>Lots of people have attacked me here. Comes with the territory. Most I couldn't give a sh*t about. A few people have later apologized, or it was clear they were just going through a hard time. Like you. I have no grudges against you at all. <P>

Hey TS, just thought I'd send a big your way...<P>I have grown to like your discourse on these subjcts we discuss here...It is refreshing to see people with a keen intelect and an eye for human nature challenging one another in an open forum...<P>Go to run...work is piled up and I can't see out my window....and besides lunch hour is over...LOL<P> Bill

TS,<P>I will say this to you and you can make of it what you will. I have never attacked you. You may have felt that I have, and if that is so, I am truely truely sorry. But it has never been my intent to attack you or make you feel bad. Well, except for some of your feminist leanings. We do disagree on what illnesses the world has and their cause, but to me it is just a disagreement, not a personal attack on you or you on me.<P>My comment about your H having the "right" to divorce was directed to the fact that biblically once adultery is committed then the betrayed spouse has that "right". But I never said he was right to do this to you and certainly not in the way he did it.<P>If I felt any animosity toward you why would I be encouraging you to get on with your life, be honest with people, and hope and pray that you find happiness? That is all I have really wanted to see you post, is that finally you have come to grips with all of this mess, and that you were happy with yourself, your life, and most importantly your future.<P>TS, I have said it before and I will say it again, you do have a great future ahead of you and I do think that includes romance and possibly marriage if you decide not to close that door.<P>I really am sorry if you took my question as any more than simply a question during a debate. It was truely simply a question not a dig at you. It serves no purpose for me to do that.<P>So TS, don't use me as an excuse not to be honest. As I have said many times before, most people have no need to hear the details of your life, but there will be a few. When they come into your life, be honest with them. Let them make the assessment for themselves, because I am sure they won't assess your past nearly as harshly as you are judging yourself.<P>It is of course your choice, but I do hope that we can discuss, talk, argue again.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<BR>Biblically, there is no allowance for abuse, rape, incest, lying, neglect and a zillion other things that equal "betrayal" in my mind. My ex used that biblical bulls*it on me too, even though I could count on one hand the number of times he had stepped foot in a church the past 10 years.<P>I'm not using you as an excuse not to be honest. You say that people don't need to know the details about my life. People ASK. If I tell them I don't want to discuss it, they assume the worst anyway. You say "let them make the assessment for themselves". What I've learned is that people make up their own stories about your life, regardless of what you tell them. <P>There is another reason why I won't be fessing up in the future. Here is an example: I know you know about my life. So even innocent comments, like the one you made the other day, are subject to interpretation. If you didn't know about my life, I would have no reason at all to believe it was directed at me. See how it works? If you didn't know about my life, you could make all the comments you want, and because you have no knowledge of my personal circumstances, it stays in the abstract and theoretical. I don't get hurt and you don't get hurt. I don't understand why knowing about my past makes a difference anyway. I don't need a babysitter, and as long as I never do this again, there is no reason to subject myself to anymore punishment, abuse, or distrust. If I wanted to cheat again, there wouldn't be a damn thing the other person could do about it. So, the idea that the other person will help me "stay strong" is BS. Only *I* can do that. <P>I still think the idea of being honest about your past (pre-relationship) is a thinly veiled method to insure that you be punished for the rest of your life. If I am no longer the kind of person who would cheat, then there is no purpose in pulling out my skeletons for some idiot person to evaluate. That is, unless they are a professional, and even professionals do alot of damage sometimes.<P>I don't think you have any animosity towards me. I said more than a few times that I think you are a good person and that you have done alot to encourage me in the past. However, if I hear one more person, especially you or any other old timers who have been a witness, tell me my ex had any "right" to do what he did (biblical or not), or tell me how much *I* screwed up my marriage.... I think I will go friggin postal.

Student:<P>I think you need to forgive yourself. I read the thread that this one refers to and I didn't interpret it or react to it in the way you have at all (granted, I haven't lived your life either). You need to thicken up that skin of yours in time for your doctoral defense!!!<P>Really!<P>There's never a good reason to be dishonest. Don't put up these walls to protect yourself---you're going to end up doing more harm than good.<P>And just to stay on your good side, your ex was a moron, and he had no right to divorce you whatsoever. In fact, it explicitly says so in MY bible---the only way your ex would have recognized a bible would have been by the size dent it left in his head after being beaned by it...<P> <P>Forgive yourself...<BR>Forgive yourself...<BR>Forgive yourself...

TS,<P>I was not saying in my opinion he had a right, and quite frankly I have never brought it up again after that one comment. As for you, and telling someone your lifes story, that is up to you. <P>I don't know what kind of friends you have but mine would never think to ask someone such a personal question unless there was some deep emotional attachment. Frankly, my response would be the same as yours, it is none of your business/concern. If that terms them off so be it. If I felt any need to answer, I would say, it was a very painful period of my life and I don't want to discuss it.<P>I will tell you this. I never asked my W about past boyfriends, lovers, etc. I don't <BR>"know" that they existed and frankly I didn't care. I have been married 24 years and I still don't care. I played around a lot as a batchelor and she may have played around as well, but it wasn't an issue with me. And it wasn't an issue with her. She never asked me either. <P>It would seem reasonable that someone new would want to know if you have been married before, but they may not. They would certainly be entitled to know if there were children involved or an exspouse that might interfer with your life, but the rest isn't that important. They don't need to know everything about your life before you met. Some people do others don't. However, if you are asked point blank, then you have to decide on the issue of honesty.<P>I cannot decide that for you and never intended to. I take the point of view of never asking questions I don't want the answer to.<P>TS, as you can tell I am a very independent person, yet I throughly enjoy being married and never felt it was an imposition. I got married at an age not much less than yours. I had tried many things and knew what I wanted and how I wanted to lead my life.<P>You are at that point now or soon will be. You have learned, grown, and matured. I am sure there are many things you would not do today that you have done in the past. However, if you had not done them would you be where you are today? I am a firm believer in learning from the past, but realizing it cannot be changed. <P>So my suggestion to you is quit being defensive about your past. It is yours, you own it, and you have learned many things from it. Don't be afraid of the future because you have a past. Everyone has a past and if they are capable of learning from it, they do not and will not repeat it. <P>TS you are defending yourself against attacks that aren't attacks. And frankly I don't know why. I am absolutely sure, that if I met you in person, I would truely enjoy your company. Oh! we would argue/debate a few issues , but I am sure you are someone I would really enjoy knowing. You know what, I think there are many here who know most of your story as I do, that think the same way. <P>You don't really understand a very basic thing here. I don't think less of you because of your past, I think more of you. I think I can say for certain that everyone here does. I don't feel sorry for you, I feel sorry for your exH, he lost out on being in your life as you grew and matured. He blew it. <P>TS, quit defending yourself, there is no need. You have led life just as everyone else does. You do your best, you make mistakes, you overcome the mistakes, and you keep learning and trying to become a better person. That is certainly what you have been doing. What is there to defend???? WHat is the need to defend?? There is none.<P> Well, there are your views about men, but I am sure we will debate that again. <P>Take care TS and God Bless You,<P>JL<P>

JL,<BR>"However, if you are asked point blank, then you have to decide on the issue of honesty."<P>I have been asked point blank, "did you cheat on him". I lied. He was the guy I dated briefly after I was divorced. The guy I broke up with after about a month because I could not trust him. <P>This question was asked in response to a question I had, which was "if you were attracted to someone else in a way that threatened your primary relationship, would you tell your partner?" He stalled, I told them the reason why I asked, which was that my ex thought that mere attraction to another person was a reason to divorce, and not a topic of conversation. I'm glad I lied to him. First, because I'm always suspicious of people who answer a question with another question, and second, because I found out later that he was pursuing some kind of relationship with a married woman who lived out of state at the same time he was dating me. Not to mention any honeys he had in town. Someone keyed his car soon after we started dating. Probably another disgruntled woman he used. He didn't want to introduce me to anybody he worked with (another reason I did not trust him). Guess that was another "hunting ground" of his. Anyway, I digress. <P>"You don't really understand a very basic thing here. I don't think less of you because of your past, I think more of you." <P>You are right on there. I don't understand that. Probably comes from my ex throwing my past in my face all these years. I still don't know why he married me if he thought my life was so heinous. I guess he just liked having someone to kick around, and this was my soft spot. What kills me, was that prior to my infidelity, I can't say I've done anything all that awful. The things I did that I was not proud of occurred when I was 20 and under, many years before I met my ex and well within the range of youthful indescretions. <P>A good friend of mine, who I went to New Orleans with, and knows about all of this called me a "tough cookie". She said she thought this before I told her about my marriage. I asked her why she thought this, and to my great surprise said she thought I had alot of courage. She didn't think less of me either. Yea, that part is not sinking in.<P>I do remember that you said my ex was the loser for not staying to work on our marriage. Suppose I'm guilty of not remembering the good stuff when I'm feeling like this. <P>K,<BR>sigh. forgive myself. I would love to. You cracked me up, though. You are always on my good side for calling my ex a "[censored]". I think it means even more coming from you since you've been with me here since day one, and knowing what you've been through yourself. In literature (i.e. the bible), as in life, my ex would only focus on whatever would support his position at the time. More concerned with being right than what is right. <P>I don't know what to do about this honesty and forgiveness thing. I listen to NPR too much. This damned presidential race is getting me depressed. Jeez, Gore has been faithful to his wife for how many years(?) and because he is even associated with someone who has committed adultery (Clinton), then he's subject to attacks on his character. Makes me sick.

TS,<P>You know Lostva made a very important observation when she was going through her separation. Marriage vows consist of more than fidelity, and many times those vows are broken as well. I am not saying that having an affair is a good thing, but I am saying to keep it in perspective. <P>To me the more important thing was what you did after the affair.<P>You didn't get "caught" you confessed it, you faced the music and you busted you b--- to repair the marriage. I tell people I am training in research a very simple thing. "Never be afraid of being wrong, be afraid of staying wrong." <P>I want researchers working for me with some guts, a willingness to take a different look at things. That means they will be wrong sometimes. But what I want them to be willing to do is have the guts to test and retest their ideas and admit when they are wrong or a better idea comes along.<P>You made a mistake and you did your best to fix it. I cannot see much wrong with that TS. I never have, that is why I have always been on your side. <P>I suspect that is why most everyone here has been on your side. Do you understand a bit better why I think more of you?<P>One piece of advice TS, you should never get into personal intimate conversations with people you are just developing a relation with. That should wait until a lot of other evidence is in. <P>I realize there is a need to "confess" especially for someone like yourself who is truely sorry for what happened, but pick you spots TS. Then I think you will find that being honest will not be an issue for you. You will know when it is time to tell someone more about you. Your affair didn't end the marriage, your H's refusal to even try and rebuild did that.<P>Got any idea how many posters here wishes with all of their heart, that you were their spouse? That their spouse would do what you did? TS, it is time to crawl out from under the depression and self recrimination and live. You have much to be proud of.<P>I guess this means you are still talking to me. I am glad.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<BR>thanks for giving me a concrete example (research). I get practice in being wrong all of the time in my research. It was reeeeally tough at first. With a bachelor's I was so used to just doing what I was told and not doing an incredible amount of investigation, so there was less risk involved. Probably one of the reasons I found it so boring. My advisor has gone a long way in reassuring me about the ups and downs of research and has been very patient with my progress. I think I'm starting to "get it". <P>I have a selfish reason for confessing so soon. I hate small talk. I prefer cutting through the BS and getting down to the meat. In the past, this wasn't so bad because I didn't have that much to lose by talking about my life. The stakes seem so much higher now. I just hate wasting my time. Suppose I need to learn a little patience in that area.<P>Thanks JL. You are helping me sort this out. Ok. Pals? Pals. Sorry I freaked out, and thanks for hangin' with me.

JL & The Student,<P>I am SO proud of you both!!! WOW! <P>Glad to be a witness to this!!!<P>Peace and love to you both,<P>Ragamuffin<P>WOW AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Ragamuffin <P>TS, you shouldn't be in such a hurry with people. They are so interesting and you can learn so much even if this person doesn't turn into the love of your life. So hurry to get through the "BS", you need to hone your BS detector and not letting them do their thing cheats you. <P>Seriously, you will work with people the rest of your life. Study them, learn from them, and enjoy them, your life will be so much richer, even if you don't have much in common with them. But more importantly you will learn who to trust, who to befriend but not trust and who to stay away from.<P>So much to learn TS and so little time. <P>God Bless,<P>JL

Stu & JL,<BR> Oh goodie! Now I can continue reading you guy's stuff! Maybe I missed my calling?.....I shoulda been a mediator, the way I brought you guys back to the table! Ummm...I bet the hours are better than the music biz too. Is there any money in it, ya think?<P> You're welcome....all you Stu and JL fans!!!!<P>Take care everybody<BR>Bill<P>PS: JL, better watch yourself pal, I ain't gonna bail ya out again!

Xman,<P>Just keep the key to the cell handy. I keep jumping into trouble. Hey ask the Harley's if there is more money in mediation than picking. Got a feeling the upside in your profession is higher that mediating.<P>Thanks for the help. I almost lost a good friend and worthy debater. <P>God Bless,<P>JL

Ts,<P>In your last reply you made the statement about cutting through the BS. For me I would look at the willingness to get honest about "sins" as opposed to the sin itself. <P>If I were on a date with a ladie that I didn't know all to well and was getting to know better and the conversation came to past relationships and she confessed to infidelity leading to the end of it, and was repentant as you seem to be. I would be inclined to admire her strength of character for owning that. It would make me more inclined to divulge my skeletons, and mine are pretty bad. Allowing ones self that vulnerability can lead to greater intamacy, in the friendship sort of way. However, if the attraction to the ladie in question turned out to be less than originaly anticipated, that conversation wouldn't help.<P>If there was a greater than anticipated attraction, that conversation, indeed would lend itself to the attraction...make sence?<P>I guess my point is that one should be able to tell within a short time a comfort zone. If it is there then by all means give me the unvarnished truth. If it isn't there then it may be better left unsaid.<P>Geez I just reread what I wrote...I belabored the crap out of my point...LOL<BR>I imagine you take my meaning...<P>Can I make a quik observation....you are growing <P>The bitterness is starting to fade <P>I won't tell anyone one if you don't want me to....LOL<P>Keep smiling <P>Love Ya,<P>Bill

Hi Xman,<BR>I'll bet you do more mediating in the music biz than you know. How many couples hear their favorite song during a fight, get all teary eyed and then make up? Me and my ex's "song" was "Into the Mystic" by Van Morrison. During our "reconciliation", we watched the movie "Patch Adams" in the theater. There is a scene in the movie where they play that song. He hugged me and we both cried. That was a good day. <P>I do want to say thanks for breaking the ice. Odds are pretty good I would have come back and extended a hand to JL after some time to think awhile. It did help that those on the outside could give me a different perspective. Thanks again. I'm glad me and JL sorted things out too. <P>WilliamJ,<BR>I don't really know what to think. When I asked that question to the guy I was dating, I already believed there were things he wasn't telling me. We had the "we are exclusive" talk already (actually, I refuse to date any other way), but having been cheated on before and my experience with my ex, I was pretty good at sniffing out the truth. When he stalled on that question (plus all of the other clues I already had), it was clear that his idea of "exclusive" was a little wishy-washy. We'd also had the "what do you consider a date" talk. I broke up with him the following week. He couldn't understand why I didn't trust him. We stayed "friends" for awhile, mostly because I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt considering my recent divorce. With time, I found out that he found it difficult to be honest about many,many things. I've been told that I'm very expressive by more than a few people, and I think alot of the men I end up with have a much harder time putting their thoughts and feelings into words than I do. It usually ends up in frustration on both sides. That is where I could use some patience. <P>About a month after we broke up, I did tell him that I had lied to him and we had more discussion. That is how I found out why he wouldn't answer MY question. As far as I'm concerned, I had much more to worry about from his behavior than he had from mine. So often, I find that the way someone answers the tough questions says more to me than the answers they give. <P>JL,<BR>You say I shouldn't ask personal questions so early in a relationship. I don't know any other way to get to know someone. I think it is pretty safe to ask someone about what they would do in the *present* and *future* rather than what they've done in the past. That is the area I usually direct my questions.

TS,<P>Good point on the how a question is answered as opposed to the answer given.<P>Isn't it sad that we have to go through all this frikken trouble just to get to know someone. When it should be easy. I find that I can tell within 5 minutes of knowing someone pretty much what to expect. People that are so at ease make me really wonder who they are trying to con. I mean making friends and getting to know someone shouldn't consist of a sales pitch. Those that are too reserved I also wonder about. The are either scared ****less from a past trauma or think they are better than me. No thank you and besides, they aren't interested in getting to know me...LOL I find my friends lie somewher in the middle of these two. I still have a couple knife wounds in my back that aren't quite healed yet from friends that bordered on the fringe of the later group.<P>I have found that if I chose to befriend someone I must allow one tragic flaw in their character, for intimate relationships lying isn't one of them. I believe honesty is still the best policy.<P>Bill