JL,<BR>I've been doing some thinking. I know that some of my ideas about men are probably skewed, due to some of my unfortunate circumstances in life. On the other hand, I have so many personal instances and outside "evidence" that point to some big problems with the way men handle things. We can talk about the way some women handle things too, cause I've got some issues there too.<P>First, I have two friends who have been raped. A third friend was sent to the hospital more than a few times by her first husband who beat the cr*p out of her. Her grandfather molested her for years as a child. My own father was a violent alcoholic who beat the cr*p out of me and my sister, and other sick stuff. I'll say, though, that he has completely reformed and is a great person now. Took about 15 years or so, but he did it. <P>If you watch the news (which I don't do very often), and inevitably the rapes, murders, armed robbery, child abuse, spouse abuse, carjacking, and miscellaneous other crimes are almost always committed by men. I don't think I need to mention that these crimes are also committed by women, but in much,much fewer numbers. School shootings? males. Serial murderers? males. <P>You came to the defense of men in child custody cases. However, most of my friends who are still married have very little help with childcare and domestic support. Even those that work. So, I don't feel extremely sorry for most guys when their wife gets primary custody, especially if they were only "fun-time" dad or "weekend" dad before the divorce occurred. What is a "fun-time" dad? A dad who does spend time with his kid, but usually only the fun stuff (sports, watching TV, playing games). Staying home when they are sick, waking up in the middle of the night when they are crying, changing diapers, cleaning up after eating. These are things that aren't "fun", and alot of men don't do it much. Yet, women have been out in the work world a long time and are still expected to shoulder a majority of childcare/domestic support on top of their jobs. <P>The men who are doing 50/50 get huge pats on the back. I think my ex thought he deserved a big 'ol cookie or double back-handsprings that he moved to support my education. Yes, I was appreciative for a long time (two years to be exact), but got sick of hearing "other men wouldn't do this" cr*p. His "twist my arm" attitude IMO came from the fact that *I* was expected to support his career and move for him (which I'd already done TWICE), but he wasn't expected to do the same for me. <P>What else is left for women? Well, they get to be afraid when they walk down the street. I don't know how many times I get stuff from well-intentioned friends talking about how not to be a victim of crime. <P>Women are exhausted from "doing it all". Men just take it for granted that they "have it all". A nice career, a nice wife who cleans his house, takes care of his kids, etc. etc. Yet women are considered selfish and unrealistic if they want the same things. I resent this a great deal. I resent that a woman feels compelled (either by society or herself) to give up the security and challenge of being financially independant in order to raise children. <P>Some of that is changing as our society moves to a "knowledge based" economy. Only in the last two or three hundred years (i.e. the Industrial Revolution) were home and work separate entities. Men have suffered from this as well. Both men and women worked side by side with their children when society was agrarian (sp?--based on farming). Before that, even in hunter/gatherer societies, women worked while watching their children. Fathers brought their sons along to the hunt. Every aspect of their lives were intertwined. Only after the industrial revolution were families separated because the manufacturing centers required to produce all of the goods required a great deal of capital investments. Workers had to go to where the factories were now, which were often dirty, dangerous places for children. So, someone had to "stay home", and those were the mothers. So now, dad doesn't get to see his kids all day, and mothers are removed from the joys of working as well. <P>As we move to a knowledge based economy, it is clear that people no longer need to show up to an office everyday, because the knowledge moves with the individual, not as a group. Even the knowledge within a group is easier to manage thanks to technology that allows meetings to occur with far distant people simultaneously. I do most of my work at home now, and that was also one of the reasons I wanted to pursue a PhD, to have more flexibility in my work environment. <P>I read somewhere recently that, when both genders were asked what they feared most by the opposite sex, women feared being raped or abused, and men were afraid of being laughed at. Women fear for their survival, yet men are looking for peace of mind. That is not nearly equal!! OK. This long enough. Anyone's opinions are welcome. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Women are exhausted from "doing it all". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hell, I'm exhausted from just doing "half"! You know that I have a career, and I also do a lot of the stuff around the house too. Grocery shopping, cooking, cleaning, laundry, taking care of kids, lawn, house projects, you know the list...<P>I guess that my only question or comment is that am I or JL an outlier on the "man" curve? I see the statistics that you cite, but yet most of the men I know are decent guys who help around the house. There are one or two slackers (just like I know of wife-slackers). I don't think any of them are physically abusive (men or women). I'm wondering if this is more a function of "who you hang out with"...<P>The last paragraph you wrote bothered me, until I thought about it. It does seem to me that women would "fear" being raped or abused from men. That's different then asking the question "Do you walk around continually in fear of abuse from your spouse (or being raped)?" I don't think most women "fear for their survival" on a daily basis (although those in abusive situations do).<P>It would be similar for me to say that thing I fear most from young black men would being shot. I work with plenty of black men, and I have none of these fears. Put me in the wrong Philly neighborhood, though, and these thoughts would enter my head.<P>I think that your perception of men MAY BE skewed (mine too---I had good role models). But hey, you raise some good points!

K,<BR>I would say "yes", at some level I am continually afraid of being raped or abused. Abuse usually only happens when you know the person, and that is bad enough. Rape happens both randomly and when you know the person. In most women's day-to-day life, they are looking over their shoulder. Almost all women (if they are smart) have a fear of strange men. We are trained from a young age how to distinguish between nice guys and not so nice guys. The stakes are alot higher if we get it wrong. Could mean rape. Could mean death. <P>There is always a chance that any man a woman might date is a rapist or an abuser. I can't imagine that men have too many fears of strange women. <P>The question was, what do men and women fear most about the opposite sex. Women fear being raped and abused by men. Men fear being laughed at by a woman. That means that men aren't afraid of women in a way that threatens their physical survival. Oh sure, they're afraid of having their feelings hurt, but women get to worry about that too. <P>Men have fears of other MEN, K. You said that you might fear being shot by a black man. Would you be too afraid of a black woman? <P>I do think you are outside the norm if you're doing more than 50% of the household chores and childcare. I know lots of guys who "help out", but no where near 50%, even when their wives are working. Maybe that's because the women (or men too) see their work outside the home as "helping out". Not a real career. Hmm. My ex certainly didn't consider my career as important as his, even though I made more than him. I do have to give him credit for one thing though. He didn't mind making less than me. Probably because his parents had alot of money and he knew he was going to end up with it someday.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited September 07, 2000).]

Gotta run, but I wanted to comment:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I would say "yes", at some level I am continually afraid of being raped or abused. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yuck. I can't imagine that. In fact, I'm not even continually afraid of being laughed at! <P>Yes, I understand that MAN vs WOMAN thing in regard to physical fear. I don't usually physically fear anyone: I'm 6'3", 200+ pounds (++ these days... ). If someone's pointing a gun or knife at me---I'll be afraid. But it's not a physical presence issue with me.<P>Time to go home, cook dinner, and wash the kids! Bye!!

Hi TS,<P>I waited until the end of the day to post because I have so much to say. But I realize that any thing I say will have little affect on your beliefs about men. So I guess, the best thing to do, is push your congressman/woman to increase NASA's funding so that half of the population can be sent to another planet. <P>Realizing the futility of what I am embarking on, I will offer a few observations.<P>If you look at the prison population it is about 3 million people, primarily men. That is roughly 1% of the population or 2% of the males in this country, if you assume they are all males. That is a lot of people and they make up most of the news articles you see on men, yet 98% of the men aren't in jail. Even if you account for adult population only, the number is 96% of men aren't criminals in jail. (I may be slightly off in the numbers but certainly have the order of magnitude right.)<P>I realize your close experience with rape makes you views on men somewhat off plumb, but realize this most men never rape or assault women.<P>This brings me to a very interesting study about spousal abuse and assult. A study was conducted which asked men and women if they had abused their H's or W's. The great surprise is that a larger percentage of women answered in the affirmative, they had physically assualted their spouse. Further, when Lesbian couples were asked the percentage of lesbian women abused by their partner equaled and exceeded that of men that abuse their W. It seems that gender was not the issue it was power or powerlessness, that seemed to bring out the violence.<P>Of course the other aspect of that study was that most abuse cases filed are women being abused by men, not the other way around. Why, well the usual, men don't want to get laughed at, especially by women. But also the women couldn't as easily harm men as the other way around.<P>Speaking of harm, how do you feel about gun control? Interesting fact, the number of men killed by women far exceeds the number of women killed by women. Weapon of choice? You got it, guns. Women kill far more men than the other way around.<P>Yet men fear being laughed at more than death apparently. I'll get back to that in a minute.<P>Now your experience is a bit contrary to normal experience, but valid nevertheless. However, much of what builds your view is the reports in the paper and other publications. But here is the problem, most of this stuff is not precise. Let me offer you some examples.<P>Your a woman, breast cancer is probably concern. In fact out here they run ads saying that 1 out of 8 women will die of breast cancer, as they ask for donations. However, no one seems to ask the correct question. What do the other 7 die of????<P>This "statistic" ignores the fact that everyone dies of something. As cancers go women die of lung cancer more frequently than breast cancer and heart disease gets more women than that. Yet, the number one funded research area is breast cancer, it is the cancer that most women fear most. Why, they have been conditioned by the media to fear it most.<P>Lets talk about funding for research; breast cancer and Aids research get a lot of money, while prostate cancer gets 1/9 of the research of breast cancer. Yet, prostate cancer kills more men that breast cancer kills women. And the age of death? It is within a year or so of each other.<P>Why? good PR on the part of the breast cancer people. How about AIDS, it kills far less than any of these diseases and certainly isn't in the league with cars, yet it is well funded, inspite of the fact that we "know" how it is spread and how to prevent it from spreading. We have no such knowledge of these other diseases with the notable exception of lung cancer: smoking seems to be a biggie there.<P>Now don't get on me about the AIDS money, I feel it is money well spent, not because a cure for AIDS may be found but it is very likely in their search for such a cure, they will learn how to cure viral diseases or even one viral disease.<P>Now why this discourse, because what we preceive to be a threat to us is not often based on the reality of the threat. Men are more likely to be laughed at than shot by their W, but other than car accidents also committed by humans, being killed by W is something to fear. But statistically not many women kill men. So we worry about being laughed at.<P>You preceptions of men are based on just such anadotal evidence, yet when women have power the appear to behave the same. So is it upbringing, gender, or a misconception of what the real problem is. <P>After all if I believe everything you say about men being fathers, that means that women are doing ALL of the child rearing, therefore they must take full responsibility for the fact that they cannot raise a "heathy, normal, well adjusted male". Or is our behavior based on women's expectations of men as taught to use by our mothers, since Dad is at the ballgame, pool, bar, golf course, in front of the TV?<P>Yes, we account for much of the crime, but we also account for a hugh percentage of inventions, and even modern obstretrics (sp) which has lead to women having longer life spans than men, through fewer deaths at child birth. If you are going to blame us for all that is bad, then you have to give us credit for all we have invented, including the work you are studying so hard to do.<P>So to get to your question: What's up with men? Well, for the most part nothing more than women want from us.<P>Finally, as a father of a 17 year old daughter, the one thing that I fight and try to keep her from is the "woman as victim" syndrome. You cannot succeed if your view of yourself is that you are going to be victimized. That is my personal belief. Women are not victims. They vote, they control a majority of the wealth in the country (via longer life span), they have the ultimate control over men (sex or the withholding of sex), and they have a hugh input into how society is formed. <P>They aren't a victim of society, they are society. Now I realize that if men understood this victim politics better prostate cancer might be funded on an equal footing with breast cancer, so we have much to learn, but if we are victims also, who is going to be the victimizer now? Who is the enemy? Women took that role first, drat!! <P>So TS, lets talk about men or women for that matter, but while you focus on our flaws, just remember we have some things to contribute as well.<P>One final comment. Equality is purely a mathematical concept. Until you get to atomic or subatomic scales, nature isn't fair or equal. I know one thing for sure, women make very lousy imatations of men, precisely because equality is a mathematical concept. We were designed for complementary functions but not to be replacements for one another.<P>Got to go and get more work done.<P>Look forward to hearing from you.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<BR>

"Women kill far more men than the other way around."<P>I'll agree that women probably kill more men than they kill women. However, I find it very hard to believe that women kill more men than men kill women. I heard a study that said that the growth in battered women's shelters have not decreased the number of women reporting abuse. What it has done is decrease the number of men who are killed by women. So, what that means to me is that the same number of men are abusing women, but that women now have other choices to escape abuse besides killing the man. <P>I do understand that criminals had mothers too. Odds are, they didn't have fathers around though. <P>Ok, lets talk about men's innovations. When you have someone at home taking care of the shopping, cooking, cleaning, taking care of the kids, it is a whole lot easier to find time and brainpower to "innovate". Even bright, successful women (like me), can only hope for (at best) a 50/50 deal with any decent man, IMO. I suppose there is the rare exception of a man who stays home and does all that stuff. I also know that such a man has to face alot of stigma, from both men and women, against doing that. <P>Basically, it boils down to my impression that men have a whole hell of a lot more choice and freedom (both financially and physically) than women do. If God were standing in front of me right now, and said <BR>"Stu, you have a choice to be born a woman or a man. Which do you choose?" I would have chosen to be a man. Not because I actually WANT to be a man. I don't have "penis envy" per se. I want the power men have. You believe that women have power over men because of sex. Well, this website proves that all the guy has to do is find another woman to have sex with. Big deal. <P>I don't consider myself a victim. That is why I'm talking about this. If I were a "victim" I would consider myself helpless, and I don't. For instance, I refuse to have a relationship with a man who won't share equally in any of the chores, be it traditionally "male" or "female" type chores. I'm no princess either. I'm just as willing to do the traditional "male" chores, so its only fair. So, I've consciously limited my choice of men. <P>You said that nature is not fair, and I agree. There is not a whole lot these days that is "natural" though, and in a way, I'm glad. Women don't need to rely on men to take care of them, don't need a man to protect them, and it is getting increasingly easier to have children without them. I won't say it is the ideal situation. The ideal situation would be for men to be a partner, and I just don't think alot of men are. I also don't think alot of women are ready to make them tow the line either. I'm considered a "man-hater" and a "sexist", I guess, because I expect to be equal and I hold men to a higher standard than some women. For that, I get to be alone. That is my choice. Still, I'd rather be alone than be some man's slave.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited September 08, 2000).]

Interesting discussion.<P>First, I'll say that I've always liked men. IMHO, they have quite a few flaws, but many redeeming points (much like women).<P>Re: rape and violence. Yeah, media does exagerate fears, I'll grant you that. But, don't discount it so easily, guys. In my fairly sheltered circle of friends (pretty high socio-economic background, live mostly in "safe" area) everyone single one of us knows one or more friend or relative that has been raped (I know a couple actually, and two that were battered). Women do fear men for a reason. That said, most men are obviously not rapists or murderers... And, the same aggressive characteristics that can be used for evil can be used for good...men also make great builders, cops, soldiers, etc. <P>Do men do an equal share of hh & childcare? Well, I'm kinda with JL that equal is just a mathematical concept. Most men I know seem to do less than their wives do, but not to the point of it being a huge imbalance...and, I think part of it is that women often don't "let go" of home/childcare tasks. Most couples I know have struck a balance they are comfortable with, whether equal or not, and that would seem to be the more important point.<P>JL, I do question the assertion that women kill more men than vice versa...I'm curious...where did you get that? Also, are you quite sure of the statement that prostate cancer kills more men, and at similar ages as breast cancer does women? I'm not arguing, just wondering if your numbers are correct. <P>I do know that lung cancer and heart disease are bigger killers of women, and have often wondered why women fear breast cancer more...partly it is media, and partly I think it is that losing a breast is so threatening to many women's sexual identity (and I'm sure prostate cancer is to a man's, esp. if surgery results in nerve damage...). I do think women are more open to talking about something that they feel threatened by, while men tend to shrug it off...I know it is hard enough to get most men to an annual physical. So, that may be an additional reason why it is less talked-about.<P>Oh, but I'm digressing. My original point was that both genders have their strengths and weaknesses. I am glad to live in an age and time when I can hold down a good job, make more $ than my H, and not have anyone think that that makes me weird. I am also glad that my H can do laundry & bath kids without feeling emasculated (I do wish he'd get a little better at separating lights and darks, but that's another story...). <P>Anyway, Student, I think you have a lot of valid points in the original post. But, even aside from making nice sex toys ( ), I see a lot of positives to the male gender...I would hate to give up on them now. And, while guys like K and JL are maybe just a <B>bit</B> above average, I don't think they are outliers at all. In my experience, most are pretty decent people...maybe with a few male hang-ups , but good at heart. <P>Must go...Regards, everyone...<P>Kathi <P><BR>

Kathi,<BR>I work with a lot of nice, respectable men. I have a few guy friends that are nice too, so I don't want to throw them all under the bus, or send them to the moon. Although, in the future when space travel does become viable, I can imagine those sentenced to life in prison being shipped off to some distant planet. Much like when England shipped off their criminals to Australia <P>I would never want to send JL or K to the moon. Who would be around to listen to me gripe? <P>I know what you mean about some women not letting go of household chores. I think they take on alot thinking that is what they are supposed to do, because that is what their moms did. My dad rarely lifted a finger. Even when he wasn't drunk. My sister and I were assigned all of the chores starting from age 9. Once in awhile he'd volunteer to vacuum. I can't remember a single meal he made for us. I vowed to myself I'd never be like my mom in that respect. It was one of the reasons I chose engineering way back when. I knew I could make a decent living and I'd never be forced to depend on anyone to support me financially. So far, so good. <P>Thanks for responding!

Hi TS and Kathi,<P>Yes, women do kill more men, than men kill women. This data can be found in several sources, I believe I got it from an article in Newsweek and the local papers. As for the prostate cancer numbers vs. breast cancer, those were in several articles, but one in our paper, Bay area was really interesting.<P>It showed cancer death rates for males and females dating back to I belive 1930. It was a variety of cancers. The one thing that really stuck with me was lung and breast cancer. For men lung cancer was #1 in (I believe the graph started in 1930) the beginning by a large margin, but it began to drop and has been dropping substantially in the last few decades. When the graph started lung cancer death rate for women was very very low, but the curve started climbing and if memory serves me correctly has now actually passed mens rates. The women's is on a steep slope up and the mens down. <P>But what was most interesting was that the death rate for breast cancer has stayed pretty flat over all of these years. That surprised me. By the way the article which was lenghty was about cancer and our persceptions of it.<P>Well, TS, what can I say. You want a spouse who is a full and equal partner, but when you H did do 50% you apparently didn't show an appreciation, I guess it was his job. Now one thing I do know about partnerships and certainly after being here for awhile, is that lack of appreciation is bad news on a relationship. Further, if you feel being married to a man is a form of slavery, then I don't think you really do get this marriage stuff very well.<P>As for men having the easy life and wishing you were a man, well the wish is your poragative. Cannot say much to you there, but perhap suggest that being a man isn't that rosy. To quote one of my favorite saying "There is no pancake so flat that it doesn't have two sides". <P>If men have it so good and we are the "masters of the universe", riddle these things for me. Why do men have a much higher suicide rate than women? Why do men have a midlife crisis? Why do men live fewer years and die from stress related diseases more often? Why are there so many men here on this board? Why aren't we happy????? <P>I know the answer because I live it everyday, but do you know the answer?<P>Are we having fun yet? <P>TS, I cannot help you hate men less. I cannot help you fear them less. But I can say that both your fear and hate are not well founded by the overall data. Your envy I cannot overcome, but as someone who has invented and solved some interesting mysteries of nature, I can tell you that you have a lot to learn there.<P>One of the main things is that the process of invention is never well received by the very people that you would think would like it. Further, being married does not help this process one bit, it is a major distraction to the process, as when I am really working on something, I don't need anyone around and I certainly don't need a Wife. I can cook, clean and take care of myself very well and the time it takes to maintain a marriage and be a father is a major distraction from the process.<P>My recommendation to you is to not get into any relationships (male or female, friends or lovers) if you are really dedicated to invention. I refused to get into a relationship or married for many years until I had accomplished some major goals in my life. I thought it best then and in retrospect I think it best from this end of the telescope. <P>Your major mistake was getting married before you reached the major goals in your life. It was not really your affair or the men you married that caused the problem. Given what you want to accomplish and are accomplishing, IMHO you should never have married. On the other hand once you finish school and get your career really started, then you just might meet someone for whom you won't have to compromise yourself.<P>Quite frankly my major criterion for a Wife was someone I would rather be with than the guys or the research lab. If she couldn't compete with them, then she wasn't right for me. Her needs and mine needed to match pretty well given the hours I work. Even then I still needed the guidance I found at this site.<P>So TS, you get to run your life and you have always had that choice, your are not a victim. So while you clearly don't understand men very well, and clearly have no interest in challenging your cherished beliefs about them, just remember you and only you are responsible for your choices and how far you go, don't blame that on men. <P>We don't limit your choices. If you don't think a firm is giving you a fair chance do what men have done for 1000's of years, strike out on your own and form your own firm. Men get screwed over in the workplace all of the time, but the reason there are so many companies and law firms, and you name it is that we have no one to blame. So we leave and start our own businesses. No one is stopping you from doing the same thing.<P>By the way, I still contend that women are major force in society, what seems to drive women crazy that men don't necessary feel compelled to follow all of the detailed instructions. <P>So please think about this. You have as much freedom and opportunity as you have the guts for, no more, no less. But I will warn you about one thing, you will begin to understand why men die of heart disease at an earlier age if you do form your own company. Trust me on that, there is no free lunch, yes even if you are a man.<P>I look forward to your reply.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

<small>[ January 26, 2005, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

JL,<BR>I'm not blaming men for anything for all of the world's problems. I think you might notice that I tend to hold women responsible for not having the guts to either make men tow the line, or go out and do it themselves. <P>You think I'd be busting my butt to get a PhD if I was the type to make excuses? Can't tell you HOW many times I was told that "girls aren't good at math", and "I can't believe she won't quit her school for you". Here's the difference, though. Nobody ever said to my ex "I can't believe you are having a hard time supporting her." I have gotten to where I am IN SPITE of what almost everyone else told me I was supposed to do. <P>I was very appreciative of my husband's efforts with housework, and many other things. I always sincerely thanked him, and made a point to do special things for him. It got pretty old to be patting him on the back all the time, and here I was, just expected to be the domestic one. HE was the one who did not appreciate me. As far as my school goes, JL, the reason why I wanted to go back to school full-time is so that I could spend more time with my H. I tried going to school at night for two years, studying at night and on weekends, and saw how long that was going to take. I came back to school full-time so that I could get it over with, and so that we could have weekends together. When my H moved here, I cut my schedule down to one class so that I could spend more time with him. Even now, I still reserve my weekends. I'm not, and never have been, the kind of person who stays at the lab all night. OK, on rare occasions, yes. But work has not been my only priority for a very long time.<P>I get kinda pissed when you tell me that I married too soon. You forget. My H pursued his Master's while we were married. We didn't start having problems until after he finished. He was done with his, so he figured I was supposed to drop everything. The first month we were dating, he got mad when I refused to drop out of my top 10 engineering school to attend the local Podunk U in order to be near him. However, he was not willing to quit his job to be near my school. I should have dumped him then. He very clearly was a hypocrite (in more ways than one), and had a huge double standard when it came to level of compromise/sacrifice. He was a spoiled brat, IMO. He had some other good qualities. Don't get me wrong. That 50% of the housework thing was pretty appealing, plus all the stuff he bought me, and places we'd go. However, the fact is, when push came to shove, he expected to be the one to make the final decision in our marriage. I don't care what anyone says. Most men would feel emasculated if they didn't feel like they were "in charge" and the one who "wears the pants in the family". A religious friend of mine once said "well, someone needs to be in charge". Well, no one is "in charge" of me. Period. <P>Many times I tried having discussions with him, to come up with some kind of compromise. His actions very clearly said to me that he did not want me going back to school. My ex told me when we got married that we could move in a few years after he got his degree and worked at his company for a couple of years. I did everything I said I would do, and expected him to follow through. Not only that, I expected him to be nice about it. Not call me a quitter, slacker, running away, and any other BS he could come up with to try and change my mind so that HE wouldn't have to do what he said he'd do. <P>Even after I applied for school, he had every opportunity to come with me to look at the different schools so that we could make a decision together. He refused to go. After about a year of this, I told him I would not go if he was having such a hard time with it. He insisted that I continue. At that point, it was HIS problem. He didn't want to deal with it. What he wanted was a plug-in wife he could order around. Hey, but that is alright. The world is full of ambitionless, gutless women who need someone to tell them what to do with their life. I'm not one of them. <P>I've never claimed to be a victim, JL. Just tired of having to do absolutely f*cking everything by myself. I work with plenty of men, and know plenty who haven't had to do it by themselves. Although, I have noticed an interesting trend lately. Both the OM and two guy friends of mine had girlfriends who broke up with them. All three of these women were highly educated. The wives/girlfriends of the men who are being "supported" are not well-educated. Hmm. What that means to me is that, the more educated a woman becomes, the more she will feel empowered to make demands on a man's time and effort in a relationship. Those who are not educated have more to lose if their relationships end.

JL,<BR>One more thing...<P>I do very much appreciate that you take the time to have this discussion with me. Even if it doesn't seem like it, I do think hard about the things you tell me. <P>When it comes to relationships, JL, I always expected to make compromises. I think my ex has a fantasy about stay-at-home wives too, in a way that supports your argument. You see, when he was married to me, he had a great deal of freedom with his own career. I could care less what he did for a living, as long as he was happy, because I always made sure I was holding up my end financially. For instance, he always had a dream of doing photography for a living, and showing his work at art shows. I told him that he could quit his job and do that anytime he wanted. Even while I was going to school. My fellowship is pretty decent. It would have been hard, but we had no debts, had plenty of savings, and he could have gone for it. This was something else we discussed before I came up here, and I meant it.<P>If/when he decides to support a family, he'll discover that he doesn't have so much freedom in that respect. He might have to keep that job he hates, put up with the BS at the office, work longer hours, just to put food on the table. I respect all of the things men have to deal with to support their families. All the things that lead to higher suicide rates, heart disease, and stress related illnesses. <P>I was very clear about my goals when I met my ex. We discussed our plans indepth before we got married. He is the one who changed. He decided he wanted someone more passive and more domestic, and he did his best to turn me into that. He decided it was too much work to negotiate. He wanted to "call the shots"--which were his words exactly. Perhaps we are not talking about ALL men here, just my ex. However, I've never met another man who is even CLOSE to doing the things he did for me. That makes me sad and mad at the same time. Sad, because maybe we could have worked things out in time if I'd had more patience. Mad, because, just once, I'd like to have a relationship with a man that is not so one sided. Our society (both men and women) need to get beyond the idea that men are there primarily for financial support, and anything else is a "perk". Women deserve to have partners in every sense of the word. Otherwise, there is no point in having a relationship.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited September 10, 2000).]

I swear, this thread is like dangling a carrot in front of a horse... I can't resist, even though I never thought I'd even lurk again... so don't tell anyone...<P><B>JL</B>,<P>For crying out loud... you're gonna have to do better than "I believe I got it from an article in Newsweek and the local papers" to convince me that more women kill men, than men women. GET the DATA and post it here. I won't believe it for even ONE SECOND until you do. <P>As far as the stats on cancer, etc. I do believe you, have read it all... but I do have something to say about the breast cancer issue discussed early on in this thread. First of all you say that women are "conditioned by the media to fear breast cancer". <B>HUH</B>? Gee, are you saying that I wouldn't be afraid of having my breast cut off and tossed in a can, a new one built from other parts of my body, my hair fall out, barfing for eight to 25 weeks during chemo, and fearing for my life throughout it all.. if the media wouldn't have told me that? Tell me you aren't saying that. My mother had breast cancer, as did my best HS girlfriend. Cancer is cancer my friend, and in a woman's life, her breasts are kind of important, and, by the way, <B>MEN helped to make them that way</B>! And breast cancer DOES kill. Make no mistake about that!!<P>Next, onto the subject of AIDS. I don't care how much money is being POURED into research. It NEEDS to be researched!! Just as heart disease, all cancers, MS, CP... well, ALL diseases/disorders!! Why does this bother you so? I don't get it. Yeah, it would be nice to see a CURE show up for something! But that doesn't mean we don't keep trying! <P>Okay, now both <B>JL and The Student</B>,<P>On the subject of men: <P>Yes, TS, your ideas about men are probably skewed. You say over and over how strong, how independent, how intelligent you are. I completely and utterly believe you and respect you for that. That is who you are- independent of a man. Are you complete? You'd say so, I'd say maybe. <P>Here's where my doubts come in. You're here, at MB, talking to JL, debating even, about men. You think about men a lot. <P>Yeah, you've been hurt to the core, and I understand that, more than you realize I think. I was quite the player in the 70's and I had my share of abusive relationships. I was "looking for love in all the wrong places" and BOY, did I find all the wrong places! I could have easily said, all men are pigs. But I was young, and I adapted. When David had his affairs early on in our marriage, I could have become a bitter, hateful shrew (and I did for awhile!), but I was strong, so I didn't. When I had my affair, and basically prostrated myself before God and David, begging for forgiveness, and David punished me by having his own affairs, I might as well of folded up and become a shrivled up prune. But I didn't. Why? Because <B>I believe in men</B>. I believe in <B>people</B>. <P>So you met two royal pigs (especially the last ex of yours)... and maybe you've met your share of other pigs as well (me too!)... but to discount all men because of this??? Would you discount all of any type of people (by race, religion, disability, for example) because of a bad experience with two or ten??? Now stay with me here TS... do you see where I'm headed? You are VERY SMART, and I suspect very open minded about people in general... this has to go against everything you believe in... and I can't believe I'm going here... get ready TS...you know what this smacks of??? I hate to say it... but here goes <wincing> discrimination. You are discriminating against men. You are not just protecting yourself anymore. This has become a belief system for you. <P>Men and women have never been the same, not in the garden (or the cosmos or where ever you believe we evolved from), and not now. We are <B>equally important</B>, not equal in the sense you speak of... never were, never will be. That is reality. I know, I know, TS... you can lift weights, get your Ph.D, and do anything a man can do... and guess what? So can I, and so can any woman who puts her mind/body to it. But I will never be a man. They are unique. Men will never be women. We are unique. We all have our place in the world, and we are of equal importance.<P>WOW... off my soapbox for a Sunday morning... shoulda gone to church, I think.<P>Take care you two... <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited September 10, 2000).]

Hi NB, <BR>So glad you can pop in!!<P>Look, I don't like they way I feel right now either. Just to get the record straight (are you listening JL), I don't lift weights and get a PhD because I want to be a man. I happen to enjoy the fact that I could till up my 1000 sq. ft. yard all by myself last weekend and not have to go begging some guy to come over and "rescue" me. I kinda like that I've got flat abs, and my arms don't flap in the breeze and that a mini-skirt still looks damn hot on me.<P>I'm not independent because I want to be a man. I think ALL people (men and women) should pull their own weight. Someone please tell me why having a strong body and mind, and being independent is considered "masculine". Many men I hang out with can whip up some awesome stuff in the kitchen and have no problems doing their own laundry, although, when they talk about marriage, they plan on their wives doing all that junk they aren't real fond of right now. I have one or two female friends who just finished their Masters who make no bones about saying they will chuck their careers once they get married. I get mad at them too. What is the friggin' point of going to school then? Just makes it that much harder for those of us who actually enjoy having a career to be taken seriously. <P>I don't think men and women are the same, but I do think both men and women use biology as an excuse a little too often. Let's assume we both agree that men are more violent than women (in general). So we should just *give up* because that is how men "are"?. Women shouldn't bother going to school or have jobs cause they aren't assertive enough to be of any use in the workplace. Well, we'd be of use in tedious, repetive jobs, cause women are more "passive" and are suited to that kind of work. Women aren't good at innovation, or math you know. Why bother hiring them anyway, cause they are just gonna dump the job when they get pregnant. <P>I seem to be pointing out the obvious here (more men are criminals, more men hurt or kill people than women, etc, etc). The very fact that I bring this up makes me a "man hater". Doesn't anyone see that sticking people in some stupid gender role is just as discriminatory? Anyway, that is my opinion. <P>To be honest, I feel like a freak. I feel like an outcast. In many ways, I've spent the past ten years trying to wrap myself around people's idea of what a woman was and hating every minute of it. When I look around, I don't see too many women like me. The one or two I know are single, like me. That is the price of being different. We get to be alone. That is something I've had to come to terms with. I've tried being something I'm not. Have tried finding a man who is just as "different" (and THOUGHT I had one with my second ex) but I'm sure they are just as few and far between as me. Different is not always good and it is certainly not "better" than other women ( or men). There were many, many times I wished I could be happy taking some low stress job or be happy staying home with kids. Sure would make my life easier in some ways, but I can't do it. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited September 10, 2000).]

Hi TS, Sheryl, Kathi, Hanora, ...<P>I have a lot of work to do today, and it will take awhile to the answers to all of the questions put together, just wanted to let you know you "guys" ganging up on me doesn't scare me abit, Yeah Right. <P>Seriously, I will do my best to answer later.<P>TS, one thing. I wasn't questioning you efforts in your marriages. I was simply pointing out that you had specific goals you wanted to reach. You expected your exH to support you in reaching those goals. He didn't for whatever reason, but probably as you point out his vision of a marriage didn't match yours. Hence the comment about you marrying too soon. Why?<P>I will say that I have seen marriages crash and burn while a spouse is in graduate school. Most often it is the H in school, but the outcome is the same, the other spouse feels neglected, you name it and the marriage fails. I have seen many male posters come on here with the familiar lament that they worked their b--ts off and went to school so their family could have it better and their W fell out of love for them. "Didn't she understand that I was do it for her?"<P>The answer is no. Why I don't know, but it was true for them and it was true for you. <BR>TS maybe it is what I do for a living, maybe it is because I have colleagues who are women, but I sure don't think you are an outside the realm of the norm. However,you are right you will need to marry a "special" man. He will have to be "special" to you and you will have to be "special" to him. I don't think you will meet that man until you are out of school and into your profession.<P>All I have really been trying to say to you is that you are not an outcast because you are a female getting a PhD in engineering. But you will have to get out of school and start moving in different circles to realize it. That is why I made the comment that you married too early for you and your goals.<P>I cannot pretend to understand all that has happened in your life any more than you know mine, but I do know that many of your experiences (with the exception of abuse) are common to men in your situation with your goals. Their W's leave them if they marry and they usually don't find a partner until their lives have settled after completing school. Quite frankly I recommend to any graduate (male or female) that they not marry until school is finished.<P>Two reasons, one the stress of the process (little money, focus on school is consuming) and the other (school is an artificial environment) you won't know the real person until it is over.<P>I will come back and answer at length later.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

I have observed the past few years some really bad mothers and wives and some really good fathers and husbands. So to put all men and or all women in the same catagory is unfair. My brother for one has since day one been the main caregiver in his household. He worked 12 hours a day while his x wife did nothing. He came home to a dirty house and made supper bathed the kids ect. She left him and the 2 kids for another man who also is the main caregiver in their relationship. My H first OW left 5 of her 8 kids just to run away with my H. She made up terrible lies about her husband ect. I have since come to know her x- husband and I find him to be a wonderful father and very, very kind and hard working man. I fought hard and even was successful in helping him gain custody again of their baby son. That woman left behind a 10 yr ol a 5 yr old and a three yr old. What I have been observing the past few years is a trend for women to be more selfish. I know many women who are still kind and loving and are the primary caregivers to their families. I live in rural minnesota and here it is still common for us to grow up thinking men first. But I also see alot of women running around with MM even those who are married themselves without the least thought of how it will make all those around them feel. I beleive the media has sent such mixed signals to women. So many are confused as to what being a independant woman is and in their confusion end up hurting alot of people including other women.<P>Are women victoms of terrible crimes? Yes, but so are men. Men may not have to worry so about rape but they are just as vulnerable to a gun, knife ect as women. Men also have a much harder time reporting crimes done to them because of the stigma that goes with it. As far as the statistics about who kills who more I don't have a clue, but I do know that there are alot of violent tempered women out there that abuse, and neglect their children. Just as many I would say as men. I am a woman. I can say that I have been the caregiver for my family plus worked 8 hrs a day. My H did what I feel was his share. I probably did more but when you love your family who did more is irrelevant (sp?)That only comes up when the marriage is in trouble. My H has left me twice in the past year for two seperate women. I could blame the whole species of men for my troubles as I could blame every woman for what has happened to me. I don't. We are all individuals men and women we all make choices regardless of gender. To bash either gender is a very unfair thing to do. Society shapes us as the human race. It is up to us to teach our children that all men and women are equal. It is up to us as a society to make sure that changes are made. We need to teach both our boys and our girls to be loving and nuturing as well as self reliant.<P>JIll<P>Ps I believe that the majority of violent criminals are a product of their disfunctional childhoods. Nobody can blame just one person for that. <BR>

Jill,<BR>you said:<BR>"We need to teach both our boys and our girls to be loving and nuturing as well as self reliant."<P>I completely agree.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TS...<BR>To be honest, I feel like a freak. I feel like an outcast. In many ways, I've spent the past ten years trying to wrap myself around people's idea of what a woman was and hating<BR>every minute of it. When I look around, I don't see too many women like me. The one or<BR>two I know are single, like me. That is the price of being different. We get to be alone.<BR>That is something I've had to come to terms with. I've tried being something I'm not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm wondering...maybe you live in a little southern town, or you hang with the wrong kinda folks??? <P>From what I recall, you are a grad student in engineering, or something technical, right? A male-dominated field. And, you want an equal partner for a mate. Where I live, that would hardly make you an oddity, so I have to wonder if you are somewhere a tad backwoods-ish? (Sorry, not trying to offend, just wondering).<P>I totally agree that each person should pull their own weight, should be capable of functioning independently...to me it doesn't mean much to be married if it is because you truly need someone's help. It means something if you are perfectly complete and happy on your own, but find that your mate adds something special to your life. <P>I have a number of very strong, capable female friends who are professional women & many out-earn their H's. A couple are in highly technical fields. Most are married to strong capable guys who are not threatened by them and are willing to share the load (or, at least combine funds & hire a maid...). <P>I agree...don't try to be something you are not, you will never be happy that way. Don't waste your time looking for magic either, it tends to pop up unexpectedly. But, I would suggest that you DO stay open to the possibility...<P>Now, you'll notice JL still hasn't come forth with that back-up material...<P>Kathi

Kathi,<BR>Before I started school here in Atlanta, I lived in central Florida for about 15 years. Although many would not consider FL to be the South, I would still say it is a bit backwards. They don't call it the Bible Belt for nothing. <P>My ex's family is from the Boston area. His grandmother (who is now about 98) got her Masters before the age of 30. His mother has a Masters as well. His sister is getting a PhD now too. I don't think it was school or how much money I made. For the first 5 yrs of our marriage, I made more than him and it was never an issue. Which brings me to...<P>JL,<BR>I don't think our marital problems were about my school at all. First, I think my PhD experience is much different than yours. We are totally spoiled in engineering, at least at this school. We are #2 (behind MIT) in research funding in the country. I have guaranteed support for the remainder of my degree. Me and my collegues enjoy a pretty laid back educational experience compared to most. <P>Nope. Our problems were primarily a power struggle. Who had it and how it was used. All of these issues were discussed at length before we were married. We dated for two years prior to marriage and only saw each other on weekends. I spent MUCH more time on my undergrad than I do graduate work. <P>He changed. That is ok. I expected that we both would in our life together. However, his failure to take responsibility for his feelings and decisions were demonstrated both before my affair and afterwards. <P>I did not get married too soon. I married someone who did not love me. I was not a real person to him, someone with their own feelings, needs, fears, etc. Everything revolved around him and his needs. When he didn't get what he wanted, he resorted to cutting me down, degrading me, and putting doubts in my mind in order to try and bend me to his will. Part of that is my fault too. Lots of times I would just give in when we'd start arguing. <P>When you tell me that "someday" after my career is settled I will find someone who won't make me compromise. That statement bothers me. It bothers me because I don't want to be with anyone who expects that I will stay the same for the rest of my life. I don't want someone who thinks a relationship doesn't involve compromise. My ex didn't want to compromise. He wanted everything his way. You know what his statement was about my school? "It's not convenient for me". CONVENIENT!!?? Damn right it wasn't convenient. Well sometimes marriage ain't "convenient". It wasn't convenient for me to move where his work was, or take a less challenging job so that we could have more time together, or offer to quit my school to avoid getting a divorce. When I heard that, I knew there was no hope. His idea of marriage was that, not only would he be my first priority (which he was), but that he would be my only priority, which would never happen.<P>I couldn't see this side of him before we were married because we liked exactly the same things. We were joined at the hip. There was no need for negotiation. Our disagreements were pretty minimal. You know, that classic "in love" stage, and it lasted for about 5 years. Me going to school was our first big test to see how we could both negotiate, it was a test of patience and faith. We both failed. <P>As far as the men killing women vs women killing men and the breast cancer thing, I don't have any counter evidence to show either, that is why I've dropped the subject. All I have is my own personal experience and a pretty big pile of anecdotal evidence. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited September 12, 2000).]

Hey Student,<P> Sorry,I don't mean to barge in on your in-depth philosophical debate here(I won't touch this one with a 10 foot pole).<P> Just wanted to reply back to you from my last post on my divorce.Didn't think you'd catch it.Thanks for responding.That is a good idea you have with the Needle.<P> Speaking of the Needle,just wanted to let you know that we can camp up there anytime.<BR>I already spoke to the Director of the Seattle Center,who just happens to be a good friend of my cousin,Bill G.,who,as you know,pretty much owns the city. <BR> <BR> Let me know.....<P> Even if you are a die-hard feminist,I'd STILL like to see you do that trick with the drinks. <P> OK,don't mind me......please continue with your discussion.....<P><BR>~~Murph