Thought I'd share a newsletter I received. Maybe this will help someone here.....along with myself.<P>Quoted from:<P>DIVORCE SURVIVAL AND BEYOND -- Vol. III, Number 5<P>Making Divorce As Normal and Respectable As Marriage <BR> <BR> I can still remember vividly the shame that I felt when I told my parents and siblings 25 years ago that I was getting divorced. I can also remember how sheepish I felt when I resumed dating and had to use "the D word" as I revealed my dark secret.<P> It's sad to me when I hear a divorced person discounting him or her self as somehow less than normal, somehow inferior because they're divorced. I like to remind us that half the people who get married also get divorced. Which half is normal? Statistically, both. <P> Divorced people certainly have more raw experience than most of those who've managed by dumb luck, complacency, or precocious<BR>relationship skills to stay married to one person. Those who've met the challenges of divorce and moved beyond simply surviving<BR>to thriving are in my mind among the most proven and impressive people around.<BR> <BR> There are many important ways we can make divorce as normal and respectable as marriage. It doesn't just happen, we make it happen. Here's how. <P> First, grow. People don't just wake up in the morning and decide to examine their lives and make amazing changes. It takes a crisis to knock us toward new levels of awareness and growth. <P> The crises of divorce are momentous, and they propel us to make momentous changes. I can't buy the saying that there are no failures, only learning experiences, but I am convinced that any failure becomes much less of a failure when we take from it all the useful learning we can get.<P> The trick is to learn things that make us wiser and better and to resist the temptation to "learn" things that keep us feeling and acting like helpless, abused, and shameful victims.<P> I consider everyone a psychologist and a theologian in that everyone has theories about people and about the spiritual principles of the universe. Those theories determine how we view the world and how we relate to ourselves and to each other. Divorce challenges us to upgrade and make those theories more accurate and useful by seeking input from as many wise and as few unwise resources as possible. <P> In that vein, the web site will soon contain, in addition to the archived newsletters, an annotated bibliography of great books about divorce, relationships, parenting, etc. <P>For some courageous souls, useful learning can even come from an exiting or exited spouse. In counseling, I often encourage people who've decided to divorce and are not openly toxic with each other to request observations or suggestions that they may wish to consider in future relationships. Sometimes a decision <BR>to divorce will lessen the grip of enmeshment that chokes off creative relating in a marriage, and at that point each can <BR>glean valuable learning from the other's perspective. <P> On the other hand, it's totally understandable that there are stages of emotional survival when we either can't or prefer not to hear things that may hurt our feelings or injure our shaken self-esteem. <P> Whenever we do request impressions of ourselves from anyone, whether a past or current lover, a parent, child, friend, or<BR>even therapist, it is a challenge to find a balance between taking in "toxic waste" on the one hand or dismissing valuable input on the other. <P> Those inclined too quickly to embrace every possible self-doubt would do well to consult only the wisest and gentlest sources of feedback. Those inclined toward defensive dismissal of any suggestion that they are less than perfect could benefit from more curiosity toward constructive criticism. <BR> <BR> We can also make divorce respectable and normal to ourselves and to others by choosing what we think and say about it. <P> My favorite cognitive therapist, and perhaps the first ever, was Epictetus (A.D. c.50-c.138), a slave who became a philosopher<BR>and observed that "people are not troubled by events, but rather by their view of them." The famous Swiss psychiatrist, Victor <BR>Frankl, wrote how he survived a Nazi concentration camp by retaining as his last vestige of control and self-respect the <BR>point of view he chose to maintain in the face of his experience.<P> Choosing to see ourselves as informed and tempered by our experience rather than defeated and shameful makes a world of<BR>difference in how we feel and act and in how others view and relate to us, most notably our children, friends, family, and future companions.<P> Each choice is clearly an option, even in the midst of a Nazi concentration camp, and each choice is self-fulfilling.<P> By achieving an emotional place where we feel that we have chosen or accepted an inevitable divorce, have survived, have<BR>become wiser, and have begun to thrive, we can legitimately and convincingly experience and represent ourselves as highly valuable members of our families and communities and as absolutely no less than respectable and normal. <P> Nathan Claunch, Ph.D.

I hope and pray divorce NEVER becomes "normal" and definitely not as "respectable as marriage". Marriage is sacred.<P>Malachi 2:16

Divorce is and should not br normalized. It does not mean we are bad people but to say it should be normalized is accepting the traumatizing of lives unnessecarily<P>People here in the states treat relationships as toasters. If it doesn't work right throw it away! In my mind this is why the world is in the trouble it is in!

The title and some of the sentences really are a rub the wrong way against what this MB site is all about...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Making Divorce As <B>Normal</B> and Respectable As Marriage<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I like to remind us that half the people who get married also get divorced. Which half is <B>normal</B>? Statistically, both.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>... if 50% of the people were jumping off bridges... would that make that half of the people "normal"? Statistically or otherwise?<P>The word <B>normal</B> is definitely <B>not</B> what a divorce is...<BR>...it is <B>abnormal</B>...<BR>...behaviorally... and socially....<BR>...and to treat is as <B>normal</B> and <B>respectable</B> is to mean that marriage is of equal stature to it! <B>It is NOT</B>!<P>To be more accurate...<BR>...the spouse not willing (I don't mean incapabable) to work on the marriage is the <B>abnormal</B> element in the marriage.<BR>...I don't mean this in the "statistical" sense of the word "abnormal"...<BR>...I mean it in the "unhealthy" sense...<P>The more society adds to the thought that...<BR>1. Divorce is normal<BR>2. Divorce is respectable<BR>The more we all accept that as fact...<BR>...and allow ourselves to say...<BR>...it's OK... you poor thing...<BR>...you don't have to work on your marriage...<BR>......because it's(divorce is) "normal"...<BR>......because it's(divorce is) "respectable"...<BR><B>NOT</B>!<P>The point that was brought up...<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Those who've met the challenges of divorce and moved beyond simply surviving<BR>to thriving are in my mind among the most proven and impressive people around.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>... is good!<P>But so much of the rest of this article was offensive...<P>The quote by Epictetus (A.D. c.50-c.138) "people are not troubled by events, but rather by their view of them."...<BR>...implies a "relativism" of "events" and "values"...<BR>It falls in line with the idea that if everyone "views" the events as OK...<BR>...it must be OK.<BR>If <B>your</B> view of life make <B>you</B> happy... that's what counts!<BR><B>NOT</B>!<P>The wanten destruction of a marriage...<BR>...must always be viewed in a negative light ir projects!<P>The divorce...<BR>...is some cases... has to happen!<P>Those who can follow the MB concepts and it still leads to a divorce... minimize(at worse) and as the ideal... eliminates the "shame" the Faithful Spouse(FS) feels.<P>But to minimize divorce's negative impact to...<BR>"it's a statistical fact of life... so get over it"....<BR>...is a disservice!<BR>...and one of traditional psychobabble.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Divorce challenges us to upgrade and make those theories (about people and about the spiritual principles of the universe)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...<BR><B>Give me a break...</B> <P>I'd have to say that Dr. Nathan Claunch's article is not what society needs to hear...<BR>...not now... not ever!<P> <P>Jim

Jim, <P>AMEN<P>Marriage is about Love, Trust, Committment, Family.<P>Divorce is about lies, broken promises, shattered dreams, adultery and broken families. Dear Lord, don't ever think that normal or respectable.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by city girl (edited September 09, 2000).]

Ragamuffin,<BR>I think I understand the spirit you posted this article. Alot of us who are deeply disturbed by divorce do feel a great deal of shame at the failure of our marriages. To try and learn from this experience is the only recourse for those who honestly believe that marriage meant "till death do us part".<P>I read your article this morning, and thought about it more. Rather than making divorce normal and respectable (which I firmly disagree with), I believe that choosing non-marriage or different "vows" should become more acceptable. <P>Those who have decided to abandon their marriage against the will of their spouse should admit to themselves that they are not capable of maintaining a life-time commitment. In the future, they should either not get married in the traditional sense, or eliminate the "for better or worse" and "till death do us part" phrases of the vows. At least that would be more in line with their real level of commitment. Alot of people don't fully comprehend the meaning of those phrases when they get married. They can't comprehend how difficult it might be to stick to those vows. Those people shouldn't necessarily be hated and reviled. However, they shouldn't get remarried either. <P>When divorce occurs, we all suffer. Families are torn apart, children are deeply hurt, and long time friends are lost. Even when I hear of a stranger getting divorced, it tends to lessen my faith in marriage and in people. There is no excuse for a 50% divorce rate. Even in the cases where I find it unavoidable, I can only imagine a 5-10% divorce rate. Couples have many, many more options when facing a crisis than just getting a divorce. <P>

The Student,<P>You took the same turn at the fork in the road I did when I came across the article. Thank you for seeing the spirit in which I posted the article.<P>When I read posts from "discarded", I wanted to tell her how OK she is! I can't imagine being 61 years old, a 31 year investment in marriage and now trying to find a way to "feel normal". The burden of being identified as divorced, the trama it creates and hearts it breaks during the process is terrible, I agree wholeheartedly.<P>The growing process and progress in the aftermath can be rewarding when you get a chance to look back and see where you've been and where you are today. Growth.<P>Thanks all for sharing your thoughts...maybe we will get some other opinions. The 50% does concern me and you do have a point on analizing a persons own level of committment.<P>Peace,<BR>Ragamuffin

I did find the site you reference...<BR><A HREF="http://www.divorcesurvivalguide.com/archive.htm" TARGET=_blank>The Divorce Survival Guide Archives</A><BR>...and in general the site... I think... has some good advice... <P>It's just the <B>last</B> article you reference that I have a problem with.<P> <P>Jim

While I certainly disagree with some of the article, this part is really good...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Choosing to see ourselves as informed and tempered by our experience rather than<BR>defeated and shameful makes a world of<BR>difference in how we feel and act and in how others view and relate to us, most notably<BR>our children, friends, family, and future companions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And, it applies not just to divorce, but to any number of negative events...<BR>

Yeah, what they all said.<P>Hey student, <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I believe that choosing non-marriage or different "vows" should become more acceptable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nah.<P>As it is, people think "living together" & "different vows" are totally acceptable alternatives to marriage. The more acceptable it becomes, the more society loses it's identity with families & the family unit. Since it's no longer "until death us do part' then people who are married in a traditional sense may feel a marriage is only temporary and not something which requires a commitment.<P>On a side note, the rest of your post about divorce, shows such an understanding and level of maturity, you should be extremely proud! <P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

I did send an email to the website about this article and let them know the title was a bit disturbing.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Chris123,<BR>I think about you often old pal. Hope things are going ok. I'm guessing Wankboy is still in the picture? <P>You know, I don't really know the answer. I've read the statistics on living together before marriage. Something like 85% of couples who lived together before marriage end up divorced. People live together more often today because they are very afraid of being a divorce statistic, and they think by living together that they will be more educated about the other person. I think their intentions are in the right place. What is missing is that they don't fully buy into "till death do us part" and "for better or worse". They think marriage is about being in love and compatible all of the time, and that is the biggest myth that needs to be eliminated. <P>You know how I feel about this. I won't have sex again unless it is within marriage. There used to be some fairly strong societal pressures (at least for women and somewhat for men) to stay virgins until marriage. I suppose what it all boils down to is a general lack of respect for marriage and family.

Yeah, he’s in it still. My update (such as it is) is at <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/000344.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/000344.html</A> <P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>