I am angry that my husband didn't tell me that his needs werent' being met in our marriage and instead turned to someone else to meet them, HER. I am very angry that after I found out about HER he never gave me a real chance to try and meet his needs. He would say he was trying but never once did he really give HER up. I am angry because he told me that some of his needs had never been met in our entire 30 years of marriage and he didn't want to be unhappy the rest of his life. Why didn't he tell me this 20 years ago when I would have had a chance to start a new life? He says it was he didn't realize what was wrong and once he did he knew that I could never meet his needs just because of who I was and who he was. He couldn't have known that sooner? I am angry because he worked nonstop while our daughter was growing up and I was pretty much a single parent. I even said I would never have any more than one because I couldn't raise them alone. I am angry that I gave up having more children because of this and now guess what? He spends oodles of time with HER children. Yes he is there for dinner several times a week. He helps her run them around to their activities. It isn't bad enough that he spoils these brats financially, he spends time with them, time he never spent with us. One month after the first time I confronted him he lied to me and then went on a beach vacation with HER and the brats. I found this out much later. I suspected it so I asked her once years later and she told me it was true. To this day my daughter suffers from a feeling of not being able to live up to her fathers expectations. She loves him and she works with him but if she does anything wrong, she beats herself up. He doesn't give her a hard time but the fact is he ignored her and now she is forever trying to earn his approval and never feeling like she gets it even when she does. Of course he doesn't understand this at all. So the man who never had any time for me or his daughter is all the sudden Mr.Dad for HER.<P>I regret that I didn't realize he was so unhappy. I especially regret that I didn't meet his sexual needs. I regret that I wasn't smart enough to figure out that 3-4 times a year is probably not enough for a healthy man in his late 40's and early 50's. My therapist says that it is very common to feel that if you are happy your mate must be happy too and it was his responsibility to come to me. His response is that he knew I could never meet his needs so that it made no sense to come to me. But still I regret that I didn't try harder to be a desirable lover. And I really didn't and oh how I regret it now. I also regret that I didn't take more of an interest in his interests. We just had different interests. I just thought that was normal. Well, he and the OW share many common interests. After I found out I tried to show him that I could share these interests but he said it was insincere and I was just doing it for him and that was a turn off for him. How was I to deal with that. <P>I am gradually realizing that he just wanted to leave and he threw up roadblocks no matter what I said because he wanted to leave. This is what my therapist said. But it hurts so bad to see him being the mate to HER that I always wished he would be to me. Why HER and not me? Don't I deserve for it to be me?

Discarded,<P>yes, we all feel that way at some point. However, life is not always fair, and it can happen to anyone. Mike C2 had a good analogy, marriage is like golf, there is no defense, only offense.<P>Although you may think it is too late to learn, it is not. We all learned here the same lessons, some in different ways. I too had an uncommunicative W. She communicates through anger and frustration when what she expects doesn't happen, and yet she never manages the process by informing people.<P>also, you always take a risk with the person you marry. Love is not unconditional, but always conditional. You are one of the players, and if you must understand the conditions to be successful.<P>There is no college of love and marriage except experience, and active work at making it the best. <P>Of course something was missing, but you may have never known, and it may not be any of your fault, as in you did something wrong, but in your lack of action, in your lack of finding what makes your H love you. And you now know that you would have had to find it by yourself, with no help from him.<P>No guarantees. Not always fair. But its only a mind game, and that you can fix with time, reading and understanding. Nothing is physically broken, and better this that many other rotten events. Life could be worse, its just not good.<P>pick yourself up, dust yourself off, forgive him for being selfish and uncommunicative, try to forgive yourself for what you DIDN'T KNOW and either plan A to try to win him back, or give up, stay angry and head to the lawyers office to get even. <P>Its up to you. you are in control of you, no one else. And only you can fix yourself, no one else cna do it for you.<P>good luck,<P>[censored] happens, some people die in car accidents and never even know what hit them.<BR>But you will live, maybe more clearly and better and the best revenge is to live a better life. Do not stoop too low, it gives back problems, and no one will help you back up.<P>thl<BR>

thl,<P>You said so much that was so wise. I know you are right and that there are much worse things that could have happened to me. I do have my daughter and she has stood by me. She still loves her Dad. There were times when I thought she should hate him but in my heart as a mother, I want her to love him. I have had health problems (cancer) but have overcome them and feel that I am in control now. My counselor told me that my husband may actually be in love with the OW and happy with her and that I will have to deal with that if that is the case. This is too much for me. I just cannot deal with them being the happy couple. I hate the fact that he does for her all the things that he would never do for me. He did do them sometimes but never like he does them for her and never as much and they stopped long ago. It is like two different men. Shouldn't my husband who I have been married to for 31 years be the real one? If he's not then how could I not have known? Well anyway, my counselor says I may have to deal with the fact that he does love her and may stay in the relationship. Since he has met separetly with my husband, I think there must be a reason for him saying this. And this is the one thing that is harder for me than any others, harder even then him leaving me. Him being happy with HER. Him replacing me with HER. He was mentioned in the paper today. He had gotten appointed to a board. It used to say ***** lives in ***** with his wive, *****. Now nothing. It's as if my contributions never happened. On he goes with no wife. I guess eventually her name will be there. This is why I told my counselor maybe I should move and he thinks I should consider it. The triggers here are just constant and too much.

You mentioned that your husband does things with or for this ow that he never did for you. Remember, when the two of you were together life was different. He was younger with a young family. Now he's closer to retirement. I think about my father-in-law. He is now 70 and married to his second wife. His first wife passed away a few years ago. With his first wife he was running his own business which took A LOT of time. They had six children. Mom was a homemaker and when dad came home (late) he watched tv in the recliner until he fell asleep. Mom did the majority of child care and house work, if not all of it. He was the bread maker. Mom was very much a home body and didn't like to travel. When their children were grown with families of their own mom and dad hardly ever went to their kids home because mom was a home body. Children went to see them. She was very quite and liked to keep to herself. She enjoyed sewing, doing cross word puzzles. Fast forward. Mom passes away and dad is approaching retirment time. He meets another woman that he eventually marries. She is nothing like his first wife. VERY outgoing and extremely active. If you look at dad with first wife and dad with second wife you would never believe that it's the same man. He travels all of the time, cooks, cleans and is very active. Why? It wasn't that he was unhappy with his first wife. His LIFE was different. Now I realize that your situation is different because you didn't die but....just because he's doing things with this ow that he didn't do with you doesn't mean that he was miserable and unhappy being married to you. He's older and time has changed the situation. His daughter is now grown and he doesn't have to work as much as he did when his family was young. Your counselor may also be correct. He could love her and may never come back. If that DOES happen you need to stop obsessing that he's doing things with her that he didn't do with you. And, for what it's worth I'm not buying the story that she doesn't want to get married to him for another 7 years. She's saying that just in case things don't work out for them. If she was really crazy in love with him she'd want to be married to him. In this particular situation I don't think it will be him that gets rid of her, but rather her getting rid of him somewhere down the road. An age difference of 20 years (is that what it is) takes a toll eventually.

discarded,<P>you sound as though you EXPECT certain situations should conform to your way of thinking. Well, life does not always conform to how we think it should be.<P>You can try as hard as you want, and you only have CONTROL OVER YOURSELF! You can't control others, influence them, yes, control them, no. Have you thought about yourself?<BR>Have you thought about why and how you are the way you are? What Briggs and Myers personality types are you, and your EH?<P>Do you know how those personality types get along? What values did your EH family provide to him such that he is adting this way? Frank Pittman, "Private Lies" explains alot about why people have them. I fell into a category there 10 years ago. My STBX sort of falls into a category there also now.<P>Frank Pittman also says "Don't take affairs personally! Actually, he recommends you to go about your business and ignore it, focus on yourself, and be the best person you can!<P>Discarded, you always learn the most by failure. What are you learning now? are you learning that you were relying on your H too much for your happiness? (codependency!)<P>Yes, your H may be INFATUATED with his new GF, and he may even be in love! However, he may really only have had a grade B relationship with you from his point of view, and now he has an A+, but he CHEATED to get his A+. Do you remember how long cheaters can go before getting cuaght? its called KARMA! and what goes around, comes around.<P>about 5% or so of affairs actually result in highly stable marriages, and alot that do, actually only last about 10 years. So don't think that just because now your H APPEARS to be happy, will mean he will always be that way!<P>Discarded, slow down, work on yourself to accept WHATEVER may happen, that you can deal with it, and that IT ISN"T ALWAYS ABOUT YOU!<P>It may actually be all about him, and he may actually be a big loser in the end!<P>KEEP AN OPEN MIND, ITS NOT ALL BLACK & WHITE!<P><B> NOW GET UP, PICK YOURSELF UP, DUST YOURSELF OFF, YOU OVERCAME CANCER, YOU CAN OVERCOME A SELFISH, SMALL MINDED HUSBAND, AND ACCEPT LIFE FOR WHAT IT IS, UP AND DOWN, NO GUARANTEES, BUT IT SURE IS INTERESTING! </B><P>hey, you can take trips too you know. Don't move away right at the moment, take a long vacation, go enjoy yourself, do something you have always wanted to do. When you get back, then you might have a better outlook.<P>also, think about going to your doctor and get some meds, LORAZAPAM worked wonders for me, and it will help you through the rough spots.<P>thl

thl,<P>Thanks for all you said. It is a lot to absorb. I have to just remember that the affair was not about me. I am on paxil and I don't think I will be ready to go off it for a long time. I wonder about what you said about our marriage being a grade B for him. That might be true but I still wish he would have let me know. But it might be true and would explain a lot.<P>

When one decides to marry, the decision is ASSUMED to be that this is the BEST i have found, since I can't get perfection, and I will never marry if i look for perfection.<P>So I will take this one here. Now, as we age, we continue to change, and more real personality comes out, and we continue to meet new people as well as assess our own life.<P>The hardest part about this is figuring out at a young, inexperienced age, how our needs will change over time when we have never been there and probably don't have any experience with our own needs as we have been independent for so long.<P>What goes from an A to a B is the experience and the comparisons to everyone else in the world. We all have a taker, and that Taker constantly looks out for number 1 and needs to be number 1 all the time.<P>To be honest, and not fair, is that some women know how to get into men's heads better than others. It is a skill and an art which can be practiced to perfect, or you are born with it.<P>Also, personalities from B&M have alot to do with the interactions. Its not just environmental. And personalities can't be faked for years, but small periods of time.<P>That is, he may be faking for a small period of time with GF. However, that may also supply the answer to why on his part it was a B marriage and not an A+. Now B&M nailed my personality and my STBX's, and the analysis of our interact was exactly correct. We are polar opposites, and I am very independent, whereas STBX's personality is not forthcoming on honesty just to keep people happy, without telling the truth, and each personality has habits which drive the other away.<P>So it it anyone's fault? or was our's a match designed to fail? The answer is that I didnot have enough experience to make the decision, of which I got the experience about 5-7 years later, but of course I am married.<P>So learn, learn, learn about yourself, there you will find the answers, as well as figure out your XH, and what family of origin influences as well as personality did not agree with yours.<P>Right now you are reacting, and I am trying to get you to STOP reacting, and just start thinking about why. Knowing why often helps because it may be, and probably is, beyond your control. If its beyond your control, there is not much you can do about it, except be yourself.<P>the other point is, if you really can'treally wait until it crashes, and then take him back, because you are still number 1 to him, then go to a divorce group, and get shark lawyer referrals.<P>thl

I have to be realistic. He has been with her 8 years and when push came to shove he chose her. And it has been 18 months since the final separation with no interest in coming back shown by him. So since I am being realistic I sometimes feel all I am left with is the anger over what happened because the reality of what happened is staring me in the face. Even my therapist said that an infatuation would not last this length of time and I need to start considering that it may be something else. But posting here really has helped me realize how much I am still obsessing on this. As to Plan A, I did try this. Here is my problem, the OW is just too smart for me. According to Dr. Harley the OW will become jealous and start to pressure when you plan A. Not this one! Oh no, she is too smart for that. When I started a serious plan A about six months into this final separation, I tried to let him know that I missed him and he was welcome at our house. He did start to stop by more, sometimes staying for an hour or two after dinner. I was encouraged. Then I suggested that we get together as a family, me, daughter and him, once a week. He thought that was a great idea and so we started this on Friday nights. But everything went along as usual with the OW. All the trips, seeing her around town in her new car which he bought for her during this period of Plan A, and etc. Finally, I brought it up and asked him how SHE felt about him spending more time with me and our daughter. It was always me and our daughter because he did balk at doing things just with me but was OK with taking me out to dinner sometimes if she was not available. His answer was that she was all for it! She had told him that it was all to the good if he could preserve a good relationship with me and stay involved as a family! He said she encourages him to do it because we share a child and everyone must adjust to the changes in our relationship! Well you can see that she undermined things before they even started. She planted in his head that this was all something he should do because he was good and noble and not because he wanted to return to the relationship. Now what do you do about that? Again I think her independence is what pulls him to her. I did once confront her about how could she have any self respect allowing a married man to buy her a house and a car. She said that he bought her these things because he loves her and she sees no problem with accepting gifts from a man who loves her and who she loves. She made sure I knew that there were no strings attached with these gifts. She said it was no different then a man buying gifts for his wife! She was the woman he loved so why couldn't he buy gifts for her? You can see what I was up against.<P>I know you all are right. I do want to be free of obsessing over it. But it seems like letting go of the obsessing is letting go of the last connection that I have. I guess that sounds pretty crazy.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by discarded:<BR><B>I have to be realistic. He has been with her 8 years and when push came to shove he chose her. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think it might be good to examine what the pushing and shoving actually was that preceded the choice. What happened to make him decide? Have you stopped Plan A-ing? Has he stopped responding?<P>Yes, the OW sounds pretty savvy, but you can take a lesson from her. She's a master at Plan A-ing. Use her example of a positive attitude. If she is encouraging his interaction with you, take advantage of it. It's like her saying why not have gifts? Why can't you have his company and use that time to your advantage? While he is in your company, show what an independent, fun person you are! Show him that you are still an interesting conversationalist and nice looking woman with attributes any man would find desirable. Don't be obvious about it, but sneak one new thing in a week. Drop one hint here and there that you ARE getting on with your life and that you are happy. Don't make it seem contrived, but natural.<P>He will probably be relieved at first and feel that you are letting him go. He will feel free from the burden of having to care about your feelings, but just watch how that all can change when he starts to feel you slipping away and not needing him anymore.<P>Of course, this can backfire, but what do you have to lose now? Men generally need to be needed and to be the only rooster in the hen house. If he thinks there is someone else roaming around or that you are having more fun without him, he may begin to change his tune. Especially if he thinks you are (gasp!) having sex!<P>Anyway, it worked for me. I wasn't trying to get the H back, but he surely became more interested in my life when he thought I was no longer interested in his. He wanted my time. Wanted to talk to me. Wanted a sanctuary away from the OW. Wanted to cuddle and stuff. <P>If it doesn't bring you and the H closer, it will make your relationship less strained and give you more self-confidence. When you practice (fake it) being confident and happy, you create it.

Popeye,<P>I alway appreciate your replies but I sometimes feel like I always have to reply in the negative. You see I did try to plan A for as long as I could. But the thought that he would leave here and go to HER house or I would hear from yet someone else that they had been at something together got to be too much. After six months of Plan A I just couldn't take it any more. I love him so much and I want him to be just mine! I guess 6 months of Plan A is all I had strength for. My therapist has encouraged me to date. I told my husband this hoping for some kind of reaction that he didn't want me to. What I got was encouragement and suggestions on how to meet men! This was so painful that I never brought it up again. I still do see him for dinner every few weeks and yes I still attend family functions and these happen every six weeks or so. Someone always graduating or marrying or something. It's a big family. But what I notice most is what's missing. The stilted and stiff way he treats me. The absolute unspoken no affection or handholding rule. If I even touch him by mistake it's like I'm poisen. No he treats me like his maiden aunt and that's how I feel. So more and more I feel I must listen to my therapist and just get away from him altogether. I guess that's called Plan B right? How scary it is.

Discarded, I could have written your post. The replies to your story and your story itself are very helpful. My h left 2 1/2 weeks ago. I thought he would be back in a couple of days because he would miss me. I see I need to be patient it may take a while. First week I was a mess. Last week was a little better. I am not on anti-depressents but taking St. John's Wart. My emotions are still on a roller coaster, so reading your posts help me see I am not alone.

Hi Discarded,<P> Listen to Popeye....she knows what she's talking about, Have you read DivorceBusting? There is a section in there describing the very actions she talks about. I honestly feel from your descriptions that he has a strong bond with you and if you were to change your tune it would rattle him. ...not at first , he would be relieved and thinking you will be giving him "more of the same". It would take patience and perseverance on your part.<BR> <BR>I really believe that if he wanted to D you and really marry her, he would've done it. Do they live together? ...or is she just living in the house he bought her?(unbelievable, what a gold digger!)I think he likes having you in the picture as his suffering wife, she does too I'm sure....the key is to change YOU and see what happens....Good luck, you think their "love" is here to stay? I say remember Marianne Gingrich!!! (she got hers didn't she?)..LU<P>

I have done some things differently but I think you are right and I will have to do more. Popeye the push that came to shove was after a year and a half of him living with me and making kind of half hearted attempts to lie now and then but mostly openly having his relationship with her, I couldn't take any more and asked him to leave. The stress of living with him while knowing he was spending so much time with her and even traveling with her was affecting my health and I started to really be afraid of having my cancer come back. When he left for good it hurt but at least I wasn't living every day with it in my face. I still obsessed but it was at least somewhat better. Also my daughter was just horrified that I would live like that. She felt I was a terrible example and why was I letting him humiliate me this way. I could feel that I was slowly losing her respect for me. Also I was losing respect for myself. So that all added up to me finally telling him to cut off contact with her or leave and he chose to leave. Even though I knew that he would probably choose her over me it was still a shock. I guess a little part of me still believed that in the end he wouldn't desert me. But he did. After what I thought was a good plan A for six months including me taking some trips on my own, I again just couldn't take it anymore. I even went away for two weeks once. He knew where I was and had the number but never once called me. During this time he seemed to get even closer to her. He even bought HER a very expensive car when I had been doing my best plan A for several months. I began to feel that he was getting the best of both worlds, getting to come over and enjoy his family but still running around with HER, taking trips with HER, being dad to HER kids. That is another problem. I can't understand it but it seems that he really does love these kids who aren't even related to him! Now their father is totally out of the picture and I believe they have no contact with him and haven't for years. So I guess my husband got to step in and be Dad and he has been for several years now. You see he has our daughter whether he stays with me or not but he wouldn't have her kids if he gave her up and I am afraid he won't give up both her and her kids. Why is it he would have grown so attached to these kids? I have racked my brain about this. I think they make him feel needed and I know that is important to him. They appear to be kids who are doing well in school and involved in activities, not problem kids. He even paid for one of them to attend a very expensive private school. I said how could you do this? He said he is a very gifted child and this was the best place for him and it was his idea and not HERS that he go there because it would meet his needs the best. He got VERY angry with me when I complained about this, that is his doing things for HER kids. He seems to see nothing wrong with helping them as he says they need him and are great kids who can go far and he cares for them very much. This infuriated me! Why should they be anything to him!<P>I hear what you all are saying. I know I do have to make more positive changes for me. I am thinking of what weep said about a facelift. I can afford it and I have been thinking about it. I really don't think anything I do at this point will bring him back. I am so depressed about this but my therapist has been pointing out to me in different ways that he seems to be very committed to staying with HER. So I would be doing it for me and I think I will start to research it. <P>If I am honest with myself and I have been trying very hard to be honest with myself recently, I have to face that one of the reasons we are not divorced is financial. It's a lot cheaper for him just to maintain the current situation then to split up his assets though he says he is very willing to do that if I want to. He says he's just not going to do it. Well, as I said why should he? SHE seems to be in no hurry to marry him. Oh let me tell you a little more about HER. She is divorced and got what I think must be a good settlement. Her exhusband was a very successful attorney. She comes for a good family and her father was CEO for many years of a local company here. Grew up in this city in a nice suburb. Went to the best schools. Belongs to the nicest country club in the city. We do too, but I never go there now because I don't want to risk running into HER. Of course everyone at this club knows about them and they go there openly together. And of course she is a yoga instructor who is apparently very good and has a following and also does some kind of fitness consulting. And to top it off she is very beautiful. Now why, I ask you did she have to take my husband? Yes he is wealthy and handsome but so are a lot of single guys and she could have her pick! So she doesn't seem to care if my husband ever divorces me and he's just perfectly happy keeping the situation as is because then he gets to control all the finances and just write me a check every month. And if I want to have him over for dinner so he can play family man he's all the happier. Then he can leave my house and go straight to HERS! I guess I'm just reaching my limit here. Yes it hurts and yes I don't think my life will ever be so good again but I just am reaching my limit. Well another ramble from me. Thanks for listening. You all are wonderful people.

Hi D,<P> No, you are a wonderful, caring ,LOYAL person in a very bad, demeaning situation. I'm sorry but those two are awful people ...you know who comes to mind when I hear your story? Kirk Douglas and Catherine what's her name. In the background is his (now ex) loyal wife who has stood by him through thick and thin. It's interesting that Kirk Douglas also wants a prenuptial agreement(like your H).....now there's a sign of a long term stable relationship.<P> Yes, it hurts D, but you are better person, start thinking about what you would do with yourself if he was dead...(this is also from DivorceBusting)....take care, LU

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by discarded:<BR><B>My therapist has encouraged me to date. I told my husband this hoping for some kind of reaction that he didn't want me to. What I got was encouragement and suggestions on how to meet men! </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't think dating is the answer, but my H's reaction to me dating was the same. However, when I was not as easily accessible and started getting flowers and stuff, he became obsessive! Always wanting to know where I was and who I was seeing. Did it make a difference in his view of me? I think he always was secure in the knowledge that I loved only him so other guys were not a threat, but after that, he began to see that he could be replaced. <P>I'm not advocating dating, but I don't think it is a bad idea to let them know you are someone other people would find attractive... while still maintaining that you prefer them, of course. <P>Plan B is there just for instances like this, but you have to know that there is a greater risk of losing them with no contact. The flip side of that is that Plan B makes that option okay. <P>I can tell you I am NOT pining away for my STBX at all! I am definitely not the emotional wreck I was 4 months ago.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lu:<BR><B>I honestly feel from your descriptions that he has a strong bond with you and if you were to change your tune it would rattle him. ...not at first , he would be relieved and thinking you will be giving him "more of the same". It would take patience and perseverance on your part.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>She's right. In an dysfunctional system, everyone plays a part. Apparently it works for him and for the OW that you are the long-suffering wife. Maybe the H feels a sense of unconditional love. Maybe the OW feels a sense of power. Maybe you get attention from by complaining (not suggesting this is true, but just trying to illustrate how we all play a part in our own dramas).<P>If they got married, the system would be disrupted and something would have to change. Maybe the OW would not feel so powerful and she'd have to do something else to get that feeling? Maybe the H would start to feel insecure because he isn't sure that the OW has the same devotion?<P>One thing is for sure, the system DOES need to be disrupted because it is not a healthy one. The best way for you to take control over what happens to YOU is to make those changes yourself. What bad can come from being more positive, self assured, and less clingy and dependent on the H? Lu is right. The H probably WILL feel relieved at first, but after a while, he's going to have to face not having that comfort of your unconditional love and see whether or not he's willing to give that up. <P>Maybe he is and maybe he isn't, but you could be facing him leaving anyway, so isn't it better that you control how that happens and how you live your life instead of having it dictated and beyond your control?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by discarded:<BR><B>Also my daughter was just horrified that I would live like that. She felt I was a terrible example and why was I letting him humiliate me this way. I could feel that I was slowly losing her respect for me. Also I was losing respect for myself. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Okay I'm back AGAIN! <P>I am a proud woman who demands to be treated with respect because I feel everyone deserves to have their humanity acknowledge. So, being involved in a marriage with multiple affairs, the last ones out in the open, was humiliating at first. I wanted to kick him out and never look back. <P>But, I have come to realize that there is no shame in loving your spouse and doing what it takes to preserve your marriage. I admire every single one of the people on this board who is working towards that goal. It's just so easy to walk away and learn nothing. Staying and trying is hard! It builds character and demonstrates our ability to love, our patience, and our commitment. I can see why your daughter would start to lose respect, but she is young. She doesn't know how hard marriage is. Some day I believe she will admire you.<P>All this is a matter of perspective. YOU are the honorable one, but you are not a victim or a pitiful person unless you buy into that. OPs are destructive people. They can violate your life, but they can't take away your dignity unless you let them, and there is nothing humiliating about loving your man.<P>As far as the face lift goes, hey what ever makes it easier on you. Look at Ivana Trump. Her husband paraded this young tart around without shame, but did she curl into a ball and die? No way! She got her thousandth face lift, published a book, went out in public and made sure the world knew that she was a survivor. Who looks like the loser? Certainly not Ivana! Marla Maples may have been sitting by his side, but everyone knew that she was a whore. <P>If you move away or go into hybernation, the OW wins. If you take control of your happiness, go out and look good and live well, you win- whether you have the H or not.

<P> AMEN, Popeye!!!! Discarded, listen to her, I can tell from your posts that you are a very caring person who deserves much better than this.....disrupt the status quo.<P> I think I am so caught up in your situation because I see so much of myself in you....the wife who tries to do everything right, is loyal and family oriented. It's a rude awakening when your life is suddenly dismissed .....my H is alot like yours ,lots of money, power and attractive women at his beck and call (he's a Dr....).He's back with us for now, but the kids are still relatively young and I look at a future that to me is uncertain....<P>I have decided that I will be the best I can be and will regain a measure of my independence. LU<P> <BR>

I can't thank you all enough for all the advice you have given me. The thing is that I have also tried Plan B going for months with very little contact and that seemed fine with him too! He wouldn't have any idea if I dated or not! He will not discuss our relationship with our daughter if she brings it up because he says it is wrong for him to discuss their relatinship with her. I also made the mistake of confronting him a few times over things I learned through her. He then told her that he didn't trust her to talk to her about these things. Then she got angry at me for asking her what he said or was doing as now her Dad was mad at her and didn't trust her. It was just a bad situation but it seemed the only way I could find out anything was through her. So I hear what you all are saying. I can do nothing to change him and what he has chosen, which appears to be HER and HER kids, I will have to change myself. By the way what do you think of the situation with her kids? Even if I could get him to cut off contact with HER I don't think he would ever cut off contact with HER kids so that would make it impossible. Why does he care for these kids so much?

discarded,<BR>I'm not a parent, but like to think I'd make a decent one someday.<P>It is not these kids' fault that their mother won't find an unattached man. What sucks big time is that they are learning through their mother that it is ok to totally [censored] up other people's lives as long as you get what you want. They are "victims" too in the long run. What kind of relationship future do they have to look forward to with a mother like they've got? The kids aren't the problem. It is even ok that your husband cares about these kids. He does have a very misplaced sense of loyalty though. IMO, he (and anyone) can't afford charity outside the home until they take care of their responsibilities inside the home. How many times have I heard stories about people can who give their time, attention, and money to a zillion strangers, yet neglect their own families? Maybe your H likes the "image" of being generous. Anyway, my point is that you shouldn't feel envious of these kids. They are going to have some serious problems of their own when they grow up having had their real father abandon them, and their sl*t mother shacking up with a MM (or whoever can "afford" her).