Bruce/Chance,<br>Does it ever bother you that we are at the mercy of our wive's whims and feelings? We are really ping-pong balls going back, and forth, on their table.<br>I have brought this up to my therapist last week. The frustration that my feelings and whims take a backseat to hers.<br>I posted earlier that things are better. But, she still does not open up to me without me asking. "How was your day?" or "What happened here?", always feels like I'm prying into her business ,that she doesn't care to tell me about. So, yesterday I was really bothered by this. She noticed and asked what was wrong. I explained that I feel she needs to be more open and forthcoming with her feelings and sharing of her life with me. She told me she knows, and would try.<br>So, at bedtime, she opens up to me that she is upset that her birthday is coming (she'll be 38 this month). She feels OLD (which I believe is what led to my whole situation). So now she has opened up her feelings, and I feel that WE are making progress. I try to comfort her by putting my arms around her. And she flat out tells me not to. She doesn't want to be smothered. But, for the past two nights, she cuddled and went to sleep on my shoulder, because SHE felt like it. Now, I felt like it, and I am not allowed. Frustrating. It seems like we all have had similar experiences. The problems is, how to stretch the envelope, without creating love busters? How to push a little, to the point before she pushes back?<br>Bruce, <br>the lonely feelings are probably felt in your wife, too. Especially because of the time of year. A few months (maybe even weeks) ago, would your wife have told you the reason why she was in a bad mood? Or, would she have stayed on the computer, and allowed both of you to go to sleep with this feeling. Much less any cuddling. I think Chance is right. You and your wife are moving ahead. The problem is that it is so slow. I know that I expect that, because things are better between me and my W, I should feel totally ok, and so should my wife. Better is not "Everthing's OK!". It means that it is better than last week, last month, etc. <br>Yesterday, my wife called me "honey" without even realizing it. She also said "I Love You" when I left for work, also without realizing it. This never would have happened a month ago. <br>Progress is slow and tedious. Frustrating, because we want it to be over quickly. It won't be. It's going to take a while. Be strong.

Bill, exactly what my husband says. When do his feelings and needs get met? It is all about me, my needs, my happiness.<p>Does it help to know that we really do feel guilty about it?? I don't want to hurt him on purpose ever; it makes me sad that I seem to do it so often.

Bill---My husband has kind of said the same thing to me. Yet, he's the one who says he is happy. But then let me start not meeting his needs and he tell me about it too. This might be a completely arrogant way of looking at it, and I'm not trying to be righteous here----but I think women just naturally are more in tune to the needs of their husband and DO try harder to meet them. It's just natural, we WANT to please our mates. Of course, that doesn't mean that all women do more and that we even know what our husbands needs are (without reading HN,HN). Maybe I am wrong tho, but also, if he is happy then it sounds like his needs are bieng met. (and I know I am rambling but her is my personal example----It was probably a good 2-3 years after I said I'd like to see a marraige counselor, or work on our marraige that I hit bottom and was clinically depressed. When c.d. I had a hard time getting out of bed, cleaining the house, preparing meals etc, THAT'S when he finally noticed that something was wrong, because HIS needs weren't being met (the house was no longer picked up, we'd have sandwiches for supper etc, I gained weight...) It took me to hit ROCK BOTTOM for him to listen to me, and then he still only thinks of the problem as being the depression, not the relationship)<br>Anyway, hope that adds some insight.

Bill, <p>Yes, it does bother me that I seem to be at the mercy of my wife's whims. At first it was very humiliating. But humiliation can be good if it divests you of mistaken perceptions, so I began to learn to appreciate it for that reason.<br>Yet I still feel frustrated by it from time to time. Yes, progress is slow. Most of the time I deal with it but sometimes, like last night, it seems to overwhelm me.<br>Today I bought the boys a Playstation for Christmas, took them to see the Rug Rats movie (which I liked) and played them a game of Monopoly (in which I unmercifully wiped them out).<br>So I've been a good dad today and my wife liked it. She basically had the whole day to do as she pleased. Hopefully I'm dropping those love bank deposits in the right place.

Yeah, I know what ya mean, but I sure do like it when she cuddles, because I haven't done that to her for sometime. I'm really trying to put some distance between us, more so than I have been. I've seen a little more interactivity because of it & want to see what a little more will do. I mean, I'm there if she needs me, & I still do more than usual which I'm trying not to do. I was hoping to see what we could share & I'd stick to that. Doing more really isn't anything I ever needed to work on, but it gives her more time for herself rather than having to do some housework. Since my last post, I haven't said I love you or kissed her good-bye (on the cheek) going out the door.<br>The kids were out playing in the snow this morning, and we were talking abit, being light & humorous, jokingly I said to her, "gosh, do ya want me to pack my bags & go now?" She replied, "yeah. You might as well." The kids came in & heard that part of the conversation. They were like, "What? Dad's moving out?" We were still smiling about what our conversation about. I told them that I wasn't going anywhere, grabbed them both & started tickeling them. I finally let'um up for air and had to go pick up some stuff from the store. After I left they got all over mom and told her she better not make me go, they love me & all I do for them, etc etc. I know it had some impact on her & when I returned 5 hours later on a 1 hour run, she just kinda looked at me wondering, but didn't ask. I just said that I had to hit several stores to get something I needed & they were packed with xmas shoppers which most were complaining about something or another making me wonder if they are in the same situation I'm trying to get out of.<br>I then went to go do something for my son I promised when I got back. W got dinner done & the kids fed. When I got done W was asleep. This was a good distant day =)<br>I was going over the posts (again) & read one of Katya's post (to Katya posted by Bill 11-23. and have taken that stand, for now to see where it goes.<br>At times it's so hard not to throw your arms in the air & say "I quit!" Until the day I get served (hopefully never) I have to keep strong, positive, and motivated to make this relationship acceptable for her highest expectations.<br>chance

Maria,<br>I know that she feels guilty about it. However, I don't know if she realized the impact it had on me. What gets me is that she had no thought of how this would affect her kids. Now she is terrified that they might find out. Or anyone might find out. <p>GBM,<br>My needs were not being totally met. I knew my marriage was bad, at least for me. But, my W always told me she was happy with me. Last night she told me she resented me for not "knowing" she was unhappy. This topic of women being more giving and feeling is discussed a lot in "Men are from Mars ...". I had always asked her why she was unhappy, and she told me because she wanted to start working again, and also to be a better mom to the kids. Was I supposed to read into this? Should I have not believed what I was told? I only discovered this after she hit rock bottom, by having an affair. <br>Bruce,<br>Some days don't feel like progress at all. Last night was a painful "open" discussion on what she resented/I resented. She didn't want to do it, but I pushed it. I didn't sleep a wink last night because of it. As much as I think we have moved forward, her wall is still up. She admitted this to me.<br>Chance,<br>It sounds like you've got things in hand for the time being. Make the best of a bad situation.

I still want to know about Bill's questions: how far to push the envelope? Had a long bad fight with H last night, in which this is one of his major frustrations. When do his needs matter?????<p>I am still having problem reconciling 1) making me happy while at the same time 2) making him happy. The things we both need and want so bad are so incompatable right now??<p>We are going to make a concious effort not to have any more of these blow-ups until January (and would be nice not to have one then!!). They exhaust both of us, and then we are more prone to say hurtful things.<p>Maria<p>ps. I have a new post - diff-t topic. Want ya'll's advice....

Maria,<br>I havn't followed you history. But, if I read you correctly, you had the affair, and want to keep you marriage. Yet, your husband is the one who is not sure. <br>The blow-ups will happen. They cool down, after a while, and eventually turn into heated conversations, and then just painful ones. Last night I stretch the envelope. I only brought up the OM once. And that was referring to what she didn't like in me. I asked if she found it in him. She told me he is not a part of our problem any more. She may feel this way, but, unfortunately, I can't, yet.<br>I feel just like your husband. When do my needs matter? Only recently did my wife realize this. And not to a great extent.<br>But, I wish she were more like you in that she would want to be happy and stay married. The problem is she doesn't know what she wants, or what will make her happy. Last night I asked her what her perfect husband would be. She said it doesn't matter, because he doesn't exist.

Bill, I definately believe you when you said that you had not followed my history. And since my husband will be reading this tonight, I HAVE NOT HAD AN AFFAIR!!! (The all caps are for my husband)<p>Anyway, my question was merely about his needs/wants and how far should he push to get these needs answered if my meeting them make me unhappier.<p>Good Lord, trying to get me in worse trouble at home, Bill?<p>

Maria,<br>Please forgive my assumption. Your comment above:<br>--Does it help to know that we really do feel guilty about it?? I don't want to hurt him on<br> purpose ever; it makes me sad that I seem to do it so often.--<br>gave me the impression that the guilt you felt, was the same as my wife's. I wish my wife would have cared as much as you that her feelings for me were gone.<br>Sorry for the mistake.<br>

Bruce,<p>An update, please, on your situation? I am in the need of good news this month!!<p>Maria

Maria,<p>You want an update with good news? Well, my wife jumped on me last night and told me to get my behind in that bedroom so she could turn me inside out. But I forgot to ask...is this good news supposed to be truthful?<br>Ok. The good news is that I'm still alive , still married, not insane (I think), and still trying to put forth effort to live some semblance of normality.<br>My wife has sat and talked with me, not about marital problems, the last couple of nights. While we're not getting into the contact sports I wish we were, I guess she is making some attempt to be more than a Stepford wife.<br>For that I am glad, and am presently concentrating energies on writing a short story. That should help take my mind of the situation.<br>Hope things are going as well as possible for you.

Maria,<p>You want an update with good news? Well, my wife jumped on me last night and told me to get my behind in that bedroom so she could turn me inside out. But I forgot to ask...is this good news supposed to be truthful?<br>Ok. The good news is that I'm still alive , still married, not insane (I think), and still trying to put forth effort to live some semblance of normality.<br>My wife has sat and talked with me, not about marital problems, the last couple of nights. While we're not getting into the contact sports I wish we were, I guess she is making some attempt to be more than a Stepford wife.<br>For that I am glad, and am presently concentrating energies on writing a short story. That should help take my mind off of the situation.<br>Hope things are going as well as possible for you.

Bruce,<br>From now on, if a paragraph is sarcastic, let us know ahead of time. I was whooping for you until that last sentence. It was a big letdown for me!<br>Stepford wives. Good analogy. My wife won't commit to trying. Won't commit to staying, or leaving. Yet, yesterday she went out and bought me some new clothes because she thought it would be nice.<br>Normal. What is that? We can sit and watch TV. Talk about movies, the kids, the car, friends, the dog, etc. Anything except our problems. Once that comes up, she gets tired and goes to sleep. Let's remember not to let this situation EVER feel normal.<br>How are your kids doing? How is your wife dealing with them? My wife has calmed down a lot with them. She doesn't blow off at them nearly as often. The house does FEEL a lot better because of it.<br>Anyway, enjoy your weekend.<br>Maria,<br>The good news is still that there are people here that care enough to ask how things are going. Sometimes, that is the only thing that keeps us on track. <br>So, how are things going? <br>You have a good weekend, too.

Bill,<p>Gee, you're right about the sarcasm thing. I can see how it's a let down considering how little (as far as our marriages go) we have something to be upbeat about.<br>My kids are doing well. My wife has never blown up on them and she treats them very well. They've never really been drawn into this although I know that they know things aren't as they should be. If I end up leaving I plan to sit down and tell them what's going on as best I'm able. I still hope I don't have to. Post holidays will tell.<br>My wife will talk about our problems but if she feels like I'm dwelling on it too much she'll just tell me she doesn't want to talk about them.<br>Well, the week end approaches. I plan on keeping my mind occupied, too much so to worry about my wife. I hope you have a peaceful one.

Things are definately better here, but I am beginning to get antsy feelings that will probably escalate into something when he comes home this weekend.<p>The last couple of days we have talked fairly well together. We have even been able to resolve some issues. As a result of this, he was in a much better mood and was much nicer to me, but this also meant that he felt much more affectionate. I have tried to give him more affection and to touch him more on my own initiative. <p>But I can feel myself becoming more and more tense around him because he is once again trying so hard. And I am feeling strangled-er as well. <p>And all of this just because he is being nice and more affectionate! I definately need my head examined!!! I told him today before he left on an overnight trip that he needed to not be so nice to me. He looked at me as though I were crazy.<p>Sometimes I think I must be......<p>Why can't I just accept what he wants to give me and also want to freely give him what he wants back??

Bruce,<p>PLEASE don't stop with the good news, even if it is only a fantasy! I was so happy for you!<br>After realizing it wasn't true, it at least made me laugh! (Something I NEED to do more often!)<p>I really think that your marriage has a lot of life left, especially since you still have a sex life.<p>I resent my H. even mentioning sex. I feel such disgust toward him, especially since he talks about sex in the most crude way.<p>There is no affection in our marriage anymore. If there is ever any affection in bed, it is only to lead toward sex, and believe me, foreplay is non-existent.<p>Anyway, enough about me. I just wanted you to know that I have hope for your marriage.<p>My thoughts are that your wife is going to "punish" you for a while. (I don't think she is maliciously trying to do this). But after some time passes, I think things will be better than ever! (I know that the time passing is a real killer for you, sorry!)<p>You're in my prayers.<p><br>