NB,<BR>I know you are trying to wean yourself from this place. Maybe you'd like to wean yourself from all this divorce mess and get on with your life. I would too. Your last post on my thread brought up some questions I'd like to ask. I'll ask them here, but if you don't feel like talking about it here, could you give me an e-mail address?<P>You mentioned that your new boyfriend had always been faithful and was proud of that. How did you tell him about your marriage and what was his reaction? <P>One of my biggest problems is that I can't imagine a truly decent guy wanting someone with my background. And because I don't want to get hurt again, I just stay away now. This really hurts to say this, but no man has ever loved me in my entire life. I'm just starting to trust my father's love again. Oh yes, there have been a few that had love "feelings" for me, but none of them really loved ME. <P>I don't believe that there are many people who are capable of a life-time commitment or real love. Just speaking for myself, I have no idea what love is. I do know what it is NOT though. It is not about making a life-time commitment, then chucking it when one gets frustrated, and moving onto someone else. <P>Our culture is drowning in the myth that "love" is about feelings and feeling good. I fell for that too. Briefly. For about two tragic weeks in my life. I can't imagine that there are many available men out there who think like I do about this. <P>To top it off, our dating rituals revolve around just "having fun". Now, I like to have fun just as much as the next person, but that is NOT the reason I would date anyone. <P>So, how do you reconcile the fact that both of you and David made a life-time commitment and now you are not together? I haven't been able to reconcile that in my own situation.

Stu,<P>I promise to answer this in detail as soon as I get back. I saw it after your other thread or I would have begun here. Ooops! I have to take my daughter to work right now. You'll have your answers, and my email, by the end of today.<P>Talk later.<P>Sheryl

Hey Student, <P>I'm back and ready to talk...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I know you are trying to wean yourself from this place. Maybe you'd like to wean yourself from all this divorce mess and get on with your life. I would too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Good god, YES to all of the above! Seems impossible some days, I must say. I thought I kept coming back to help others, and then I find it's helping me too. The most embarrassing part is when I keep saying "goodbye" and coming back, over and over. Reminds me of my marriage! Up until the last time, of course.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Your last post on my thread brought up some questions I'd like to ask. I'll ask them here, but if you don't feel like talking about it here, could you give me an e-mail address?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'll answer here, but I'll also give you my email addy, in case you want to take it offlist. I tried to close this address once, yahoo wouldn't let me. Maybe this was the reason, well, that and the fact that they don't close accounts! LOL <P>nbeginning@yahoo.com<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You mentioned that your new boyfriend had always been faithful and was proud of that. How did you tell him about your marriage and what was his reaction? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's a long, long story actually. The short version: I have been very remorseful, as you and everyone who's read my diatribes understands. My affair was horrible, and to me, it stands right beside me early years of screwing anyone who would have me. It's equal. I told it all, and I told it at the very beginning. I told it all to David (which he never let me forget - from the beginning of our marriage) and I have told it all to the new man (I'll call him NM). <P>Also, the NM knows about this place, and I told him to go ahead and read everything I have written. This place was a great big journal of my life as I navigated through the withdrawls and rebuilding process. He read a lot of it, but not all of it. He read enough to know that I worked very hard at repairing my marriage and he could see that I was disguisted with myself and hated what I'd done to me, my H, and the OM's family. He appreciated that. <P>He has his own history too, one which includes infidelity by his W. You would think that would make him hate me, but in fact, he so appreciated my efforts to rebuild my marriage because he felt that his W had not tried long enough. I am certainly not going to judge her efforts - AT ALL, as it is not my place. I happen to know that she did try, but as often happens, the history between the two people sometimes gets in the way and the efforts are not seen. <P>And, bottom line, I **so** don't <B>EVER</B> want to go to that place (an affair) again. He knows this and respects it. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>One of my biggest problems is that I can't imagine a truly decent guy wanting someone with my background.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Simply not true. If I were 10 years younger, I might believe that. But folks in their 40's and older realize that we all come with some baggage. This is our baggage Student. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This really hurts to say this, but no man has ever loved me in my entire life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh, I do understand the feeling behind this statement. But let me remind you of something. David cheated in the seventh year of our marriage. Did he love me then? Remember, he cheated with several women in a row. Did he love me? I'd say yes, he did, but not as I should have been loved. Not with respect. Then when I had my affair he cheated again. Did he love me then? Does he love me now? He says yes, he does. But his actions say otherwise. So, truly, I am in the same boat as you on that one. Yes, I was "loved" for 20 years by the same man, but... was it really love, or just his brand of love?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I'm just starting to trust my father's love again. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is soooooooooooo wonderful Student.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Oh yes, there have been a few that had love "feelings" for me, but none of them really loved ME. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And that, my dear Student, is THEIR problem, NOT YOURS. You are you, in all your lovable-ness. You don't change, you don't waver, THEY do. I feel EXACTLY the same way, as mentioned about my stbx, above.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't believe that there are many people who are capable of a life-time commitment or real love.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh, I agree. There's this lovely senior citizen at my church who's H died after like 50 years of marriage to her. He's been gone for 10 years or so. She will sit in church and proclaim that NO MAN can be faithful his entire life. She says that men aren't made that way. I sit and listen to her and I wonder what she knows that I've missed. My grandparents were married to one person for over 45 years... then after they die I find out that there was infidelity, alcoholism, abuse... damn near all over the place. Who knows the answer to this one, truly. But... you can't stop trying to find peace and love because of it, can you? I guess what it comes down to is this: what do you think life is? I mean, is it fleeting, you die and go to heaven, or do you go on, or do you die and that's the end... what do you beleive? Because if you believe that your actions help to determine your eternity, then you have to do what you think is right, and good. Lord, I'm digressing... maybe I'll come back to this later. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Just speaking for myself, I have no idea what love is. I do know what it is NOT though. It is not about making a life-time commitment, then chucking it when one gets frustrated, and moving onto someone else.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, you do know what love is. Listen to your heart and soul. You do! It's just that you've been damaged. You're scared, and you don't want to keep being hurt. Now listen very carefully to me here... you and I both made a lifetime committment, and we both screwed up. Our H's screwed up BIG TIME too... but our guilt and fear comes more from what WE did than what they did. Will you agree with me about that? I hesitate to say this, but I'm gonna: This is not about the other person, it's about us. For you, it's about YOU. For me, it's about ME. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Our culture is drowning in the myth that "love" is about feelings and feeling good. I fell for that too. Briefly. For about two tragic weeks in my life. I can't imagine that there are many available men out there who think like I do about this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Guess what? It IS about those things! But it is ALSO about committment, faith, sacredness, preciousness... it is about treating EACH OTHER with care. But it is about feelings and feeling good too... remember what made you have the affairs... and don't forget me too... because what made me have my affair was that the OM made me feel good about myself, he treated me with care (although he couldn't follow through with it for obvious reasons)... the caring mattered, so did the feelings. <P>Now, this NM gives me everything I listed, but that isn't enough... not nearly enough. Only time will tell if he is what he says he is. I'm willing to take that chance because he is worth the effort. David was worth the effort too, until the last affair of his. Then he wasn't worth the effort anymore. I was far too damaged. Again, that is not to say that I did not hurt him deeply, very deeply. But for me, I could not stand the pain any longer. <P>I didn't give up faith in all men. Just him. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>To top it off, our dating rituals revolve around just "having fun". Now, I like to have fun just as much as the next person, but that is NOT the reason I would date anyone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, the rituals may revolve around that, but not all people agree. I found someone who loves to have fun, but he talks to me for hours and hours and hours... literally, I can show you the phone bills! This is serious business. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So, how do you reconcile the fact that both of you and David made a life-time commitment and now you are not together? I haven't been able to reconcile that in my own situation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Reconcile? Well <sigh > not easily. I believed that we would be together forever, and to be honest, if it were up to David, we still would be together. I filed for divorce and I'm the one keeping us apart. The reason is this: how much pain am I suppose to take? Let's say I did try again, and seven years down the road (or every seven years, as it was shaping up to be) he had another affair. Let's say he would do that but we'd stay together (like the mobsters on The Godfather) because of loyalty to the marriage. It can be done, but at what cost? So, I guess that's how I reconcile it. It has to be, because I can't take the pain anymore. It's what I have CHOSEN. <P>Maybe you don't want my advice, but I'll give it anyhow: You have something of worth to offer the world. At this time you CHOSE to avoid the dating scene and romantic situations with men. Live life as you have chosen, but don't make a LIFETIME committment to it until you are SURE that it is what you want FOREVER. Live one day at a time, and accept what god/goddess/universe has to offer you. You are worthy of love, you are lovable, you can give love freely. Love is love is love. Hold it in your heart now, and give it only when you're ready. It is sacred.<P>Remember that!! <BR><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited September 16, 2000).]

"My affair was horrible, and to me, it stands right beside me early years of screwing anyone who would have me." <P>I had my own period like that, between the ages of 16-19. I'm not proud of the fact that I had sex without love during those years, however, I never cheated on anyone. I told my second ex about everything too in the very beginning, and he never let me live it down either. For 8 yrs, my ex couldn't "forgive" me for sleeping with the guy I went to prom with, for instance. That was oh, 10 yrs before I even MET him.<P>Actually, my loveless f*cking years have made it alot easier for me to be celibate right now. I know what I'm NOT missing with empty sex.<P>You said that you had NM come and read things here. It sounds like you were able to really let him scrutinize things. That is what I was afraid of. <P>Right now, I'm not willing to do that with anyone. I told my second H (SH) about my first H (FH). To this day, my SH believes that *I* cheated on my FH!! Nothing I told him made a difference. He wanted to believe whatever he wanted to believe and that was that. Add to that, the heinous punishment my second H dealt me following my confession, and there is no way ANYONE gets the liberty to rip off my scabs. I learned from my SH that people believe what they want to believe anyway, no matter what your story is.<P>What do I believe? I don't believe in life after death, although I've never died so I can't be sure now. What drives me to "do the right thing" is not a fear of hell. What drives me is a belief that we are all connected, for better or worse. The pain we cause others (in the whole big scheme of things) hurts ourselves. For instance, everytime I hear of someone getting a divorce, I lose just a little more faith in marriage and love. Even if those people are complete strangers. When I hear of someone being murdered, raped, or abused, I feel a little more afraid of the world and a little less trusting. The alternative is true too. When I hear of someone who is celibrating their 60th anniversary, I think, "hey, maybe it IS possible." <P>I think this divorce is easier on you because you are the one who chose it, and as sad as it might be that you and David haven't worked things out, you at least have resolved that it is impossible. I don't feel that way about my marriage. I did not choose this divorce. I confessed because I knew our marriage was in trouble and I wanted to save it. My ex decided it was "against his principles" to stay with someone who cheated on him and never really worked on our marriage. To this day, I still wonder if telling him was the right thing to do. Most days, I feel like it was not. Now, I understand that is not what any NM of mine would want to hear. However, he was not subjected to the torture my ex put me through, and telling him what my ex did would only sound like justification. I suppose I can only say that in retrospect. I had no idea (but did have some suspicion) of how cruel my ex could be. Maybe this was the only way I would have seen this side of him full blast, rather than the slow blood-letting he had been giving me over the years.<P>I'm going to hold onto your e-mail. In the future, I'll just e-mail you there. I need to wean myself from this place too.

TS,<P>Hope you don't mind my jumping in on this thread. I have read the other two threads and reserved my comments, thoughts, opinions or whatever ever in hell you want to call them.<P>You bring up some great points and all center around honesty , committment, and faith in mankind.<P><footnote: please forgive my lousy typing, as god only belessed me w/6 fingers and I have only learned to use one or two of thodse on the keyboard, so I have to watch the key board and not the screen...LOL><P>Back to the honesty, commitment, and mankind.<P>About the honesty. I'm a firm believer in the almost total honesty. This is just for me as I see love and relationships ans sex almost as a woman does, or at least that's what my sponsor tells me. I'll answer a question with one. If you were to meet, say the male version of you, and he shared his experience and feelings as you do when you come here, would you lose respect for him or gain it?<P>Me, I would love to meet a ladie of your caliber. It might seeme that you see yhe world from a skewed perspective but at least it isn't through rose colored glasses. Alot of what you have said IMO bears alot of truth, it is a sad sort of place our world has turned into. We have so much at out finger tips that the need for instant gratification is hard almost impossible to resist, believe me I know this fisrt had. I get more into that in a minute, back to honesty.<P>What I have learned the past year is the difference between being honest and getting honest. Most of that has to do with how I "feel". I am now acutely aware of exactly how I feel at any given moment and am not affraid to tell myself how I feel. Make sence, it so abstract a concept that alot of folks can't understand it. That is because, again IMO, most people are caught in the grips of denial. Oh what a lonely place to be. I no longer have to fear my emotions nor do I have to fear apearing week because of them. In fact, this is my ego speaking, I feel like I have one up on them.<P>Anyhow, I know what you mean by loveless vacant sex in the late teens and early twenties. I wanted to appear "cool" so the thing to do was get as much as I could. Well let left me feeling even more vacant inside. Shoild the next person I date chose to share with me that she did the same BFD, being young and nieve` and searching for that fix is no crime. oh, BTW I hope you did get some on your prom ...I did Does that really matter? NO it doesn't. Did I have that vacant feeling afterward...maybe a little but the person I was with I had a close bond to.<P>As far as two failed marriages, again for me, as long as the person was able to learn and grow and "own" the responciblities for the demises of them the details don't really matter. What matters is did they change as a person and LEARN from there mistakes.<P>On commitment...I would be remiss if I were to not share my, at times lack of it, in ALL areas of my life. It took me 5 years of marriage to understand what that is and when I got it she decide to go f*** a 17 yr old. In the 8 years we were together I never did cheat, I have to be honest and say that that there were a few times I wanted to. Why didn't I? #1 I wasn't willing to pay the tab for the feelings, #2 I made a commitment of monogamy. I know #2 should be first but in all honesty it was not the deciding factor. Does that make me a bad person? I don't know, what do you think? I do know I felt dirty inside for feeling that way, but I also got some solace know I lived up to my commitment. When that F***ing B**** wife of mine <I guess I am a little bitter> left. I was committed to to keep my marriage together, but after 8 months of piling one insult on to of another injury I said F this I can't live this way. How did you so eliquently put it...aah yes...blood letting. That succinctly descibes how I felt. Sometime in March I decided to throw in the towel. Was I wrong? Again I don't know, all I know is I couldn't take the pain anylonger and all I felt for her was huge dissappointment.<P> Since then I have been fearful of dating for a few reasons. One fear of rejection, and two fear of having that empty feeling inside after sex. I joke about not having my "ashes hauled" for almost a year now, but in reality I want to share that experience with someone I care deeply for. Yes I am now a sap LOL...My guy friends, or at least most of them don't get it. And my girl friends can't understand the concept of not being in a relationship.<P>This brings ne to faith in man. As I stated most of the women I know have so little self-confidence they have to be validated by a relationship. I call them serial monogomists. Unable to live life with only themselves. What is up with that? You have also mentioned the violent side of man. I don't walk around paranoid or in fear, however, I do carry my trusty .45 with me most everyday. Not that I would ever use it of couse but hell, I read the papers and watch the news, besides I'm a little tool ight in the [censored] to fight off a would-be thug that wants to take me. As the comedian Tim Wilson puts it, It's a sorry world. <P>I'll end with this...we all have our perseptions of this world and yours may be different that mine, in the greater sceam of things that is what makes life worth living. Oh and another thing <B>YOU CAN"T LEAVE HERE</B> I need to have your opinions and ideas they keep me thinking. One more thing, if you're ever in Charlotte wanna go out <P>Take good care.<BR>Love Ya,<P>Bill<P>P.S. It took me 30 frikken minutes to type this...I need lessons...LOL<P>------------------<BR><P>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.

I had a thought about the strip-clubs...I prefer to use the vulgar vernacular because that is much more befitting...they are titty-bars...<P>I have been a few times for bachelar parties...to be honest...half of me liked it, half of me was repulsed by it and the other half walked away frustrated...i know that's 3 haves....call it a Yogiism...LOL<P>My stbx thought it was cool...I'd come home all frystrated and she would have intense wild and kinky sex, then afterward I always felt dirty.<P>Through the past year my buddies have tried to get me to ge several times and I wouldn't. Why go see somi-goodlooking lesbian slutt take off he clothes and get my animal instincts all worked up. It's like drinking non-alcoholic beer. Whats the point. You get nothing from it but a craving. I'd rather have <B>MY</B> woman/wife/serious girlfriend do the same thing in the privacy of my home then actualy get to make passionate love to her, and not wind up with a sick feeling in my gut. And the reality of the whole titty-bar thing IMO is #1 they are mostly lesbians and just use man to make an [censored]-load of $$ and #2 the ones that do hook up with the patron are probably infected with every social disease known to man. The last thing I want is a syphilictic p****r and #3 wich should be #1 is it is moraly wrong to me, oh and #4 the money that is spent there you'd be just as well off throwing in the toilet.<P>Like, I think it was,P.J. O'Rourke said, "No one Ever went broke underestimating the american taste."<P>It's a sorry world.<p>[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited September 17, 2000).]

Bill,<P>I wanted to answer this question...<BR>"If you were to meet, say the male version of you, and he shared his experience and feelings as you do when you come here, would you lose respect for him or gain it?"<P>The answer is, I don't know. Right now, my skin is pretty hard for me to live in. There is not a whole lot I like about myself. I don't want to get started on this big pity party or anything, just making a point. My point is, if I can't live with what I've done then I can't live with the things other people have done either. If you couldn't tell, I'm mostly fed up with the majority of the human race right now (including myself).<P>NB,<BR>About those "feelings" things. I realized pretty quick that those "feelings" were false and had nothing to do with love. The OM was exactly like my ex used to be before I told him I wanted to go back to school. I didn't want someone different. What I wanted was my husband back. At some level, I still do. <P>We can all agree that if another person continually mistreats you, that eventually you will not have loving "feelings" toward them. However, that does not mean you cannot act in a loving way towards them. My confession was an act of love, plain and simple. My ex wasn't being the nicest person up to that point, either. It would have been really easy for me to just use him to support my education, then dump him later, but I couldn't do that. I had absolutely nothing to gain by telling him (except hopefully our marriage) and everything to lose. Well, I lost everything, and more. I didn't expect him to methodically destroy every remaining shred of my self-esteem. However, it did teach me something about him. His so-called "faithfulness" had nothing to do with love or caring for me. He did not love ME as a human being one bit. When he didn't "feel" in "love" with me anymore, he dumped me. It was only a matter of time, IMO, before he would have cheated on me or just kept on degrading me till I became the pitiful woman his mother is. His father is one of the most two-faced, degrading, SOB's I've ever met. His mother runs around like a dog that has been kicked too many times. Anyway, long story short, the ACT of loving someone has nothing to do with feelings. People can act in a loving way with or without the presence of love "feelings".<P>Bill mentioned a serial monogomist. That was my ex. Maybe he won't cheat, but he'll treat you like cr*p till you leave. Working on a relationship is more-or-less out of the question for him. It is funny all of the amazing insights he presented to me AFTER our divorce. Yea right, but too chicken to see it through with someone who knows his story and would make him stick to it. Bill, if you are involved with some kind of 12 step program, you know what I mean. That is the good thing about those programs. They've heard the BS rationalizations so many times, they can call someone on it anytime it is necessary. <P>Just venting somemore. Thanks for being here. Today I did lots of gardening and made a couple of trips to Home Depot. This is the time of year I miss my ex the most. We practically lived at Home Depot. This is also the time of year, three years ago, that I first came to school here and about the time my affair started. Sigh. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited September 17, 2000).]

TS,<P>I know you directed this post to Sheryl, but I have a couple of minutes and wanted to give you my take on this.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't believe that there are many people who are capable of a life-time commitment or real love.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This just isn't true. I have weathered a sometimes troubled marriage, the withholding of sex as a method of manipulation and, now, an affair by my W. I still love her and am still willing to commit her a lifetime if we can get all this worked out. Many times thru the troubles and total lack of affection, I fantasized about being with other women. But you know what? I just couldn't do it. I'm committed(or maybe should be committed...LOL) to the idea of a life partner and the concepts of fidelity. <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>One of my biggest problems is that I can't imagine a truly decent guy wanting someone with my background.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If I were single, I would want someone like you in a heartbeat. You are intelligent, independent, well-read, communicative and not afraid of Home Depot. You have a lot going for you. However.....<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...but no man has ever loved me in my entire life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Assuming this is true, you are the one who has to get past this. This is also, most likely, something that deeply influences who you choose to be with. There are some who say that we choose mates and/or partners that recreate in us unfulfilled needs or wrongs done to us in the past. Why would we do this? It is so we can get another chance to resolve the situation. That might be what you are doing in your life.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What do I believe? I don't believe in life after death, although I've never died so I can't be sure now. What drives me to "do the right thing" is not a fear of hell. What drives me is a belief that we are all connected, for better or worse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Guess what? You are not the only one to feel that way...You have described me to a tee.<P>Oh well, gotta go for now. You just keep on keepin' on. You are valuable to yourself and to the rest of us who know you in some way. Work on yourself right now. Save the judgements on how the rest of us operate until you are more clear about you.<P>Luv ya and take care, TS...<P><BR>--DeWayne--<BR>

Ts,<P>you got my eyebrow raised when you used the application of the program...<P>One of the tools I've learned in sponsoring guys is to let them run with whatever defect of character they are acting on until they tell me they dislike that in others, or until they come up with the solution unknowingly. If they chose to act the solution great, if not they will have it,or at least be awareof it.Now, friend I will try the same thing with you....remember the connotation is ment to be loving and it is impossible to get the inflection of the staement correct.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>That is the good thing about those programs. They've heard the BS rationalizations so many times, they can call someone on it anytime it is necessary. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Think about this....your feelings toward yourself and people in general lean toward this statement. Actualy it is more on the justifacation side. We have a saying...Give yourself a Break and also Easy Does It...<P>I'm sure you are familiar with the Serenity Prayer too...I say it every frikken day...LOL<P>You are 100% about one thing...it is impossible to truly love another if you can't love yourself...<P>As I am sure you are be very grateful you have this forum to share exactly how you feel. For me I use it in the same manner I use meetings.<P>I'll tell you a cool experience I had today...I was at a resteraunt this evening with a sponcee, and we ran into my sponsor...he and I chatted for a minute in between the tables. When we finished we hugged and he told me he loved me and I said I love you too...and we didn't feel one once of embarassment over this display of affection...mind you he is 6'3" and about 220 lbs and a long haired biker...I grinned to myself when I saw the look of astonish ment in the eyes of the other partons over this display...This man has more integrity and homor than I could hope to achieve...He told me 4 years ago when he started sponsoring me that he would love me til I loved myself...I cried that day tears of acceptance...I don't know exeactly what my point was shareing this...yes I do know...This forum is the same feeling of unconditional love...not individualy but as the group on a whole...<P>That being said...here's your hug<P>{{{{{{{{{{{TheStudent}}}}}}}}}}<BR>And just in case no one has told you today...I love you.<P>Bill

For crying out loud Student, here I am again! Jeez, it's like this invisible thread that keeps on pulling me back here...<P>Oh, and Hi to Bill and DeWayne, two of my fav guys! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>About those "feelings" things. I realized pretty quick that those "feelings" were false and had nothing to do with love.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Guess what hon, I'm gonna disagree again. I know you (and a zillion others) will say that it's the committment that counts, but I'll tell you what. I love feelings! I love how I feel with NM, and I loved (for many years despite David's affairs) how I felt with David. Feelings matter to me. I don't use them as a barometer, because they can be fleeting and untrue at times, but you can bet your butt on one thing: if I feel bad, I want away from what's making me feel bad. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The OM was exactly like my ex used to be before I told him I wanted to go back to school. I didn't want someone different. What I wanted was my husband back. At some level, I still do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Now maybe this is where you and I differ BIG TIME. My OM was a polar opposite to my H, and the NM is the polar opposite of both of them, if that's possible. All three are good men (yes, even OM) and all three "loved" me in their own way, and/or still do love me. The things I absolutely hate about my stbx are the things that I hope to God I NEVER see in another human being. At some level, I also want my H back, believe it or not. But I won't take the bad with the good, not any more. I want the NM because he treats me with respect (which, let's face it, is what you want more than anything, so it can be found) and a care that I haven't seen in David for YEARS. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We can all agree that if another person continually mistreats you, that eventually you will not have loving "feelings" toward them. However, that does not mean you cannot act in a loving way towards them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>100% agreed. I think I pretty much explained this above.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My confession was an act of love, plain and simple. My ex wasn't being the nicest person up to that point, either.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That says something about you. My confession was an act of fear, guilt, and my desire to do the right thing. Again, even after David's affairs, it never occured to me to have an affair. It hit me upside the head with a force I was ill prepared for. I felt like a loser whore, and loser whores deserve to be punished. I was abliged.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It would have been really easy for me to just use him to support my education, then dump him later, but I couldn't do that. I had absolutely nothing to gain by telling him (except hopefully our marriage) and everything to lose. Well, I lost everything, and more.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I had my children to lose, my life as I knew it, my 20 year life with this man, my self-respect (which was already in question), my family, my friends, my job (remember I work with the OM)... yes, I still have my children but you can bet that the respect level in their eyes is in the toilet, and I still have my job, but not for long. I'm moving. I'm finally leaving my job. Shoulda done it in the first place. I'm just now beginning to see the edges of my self-esteem peeking out. This has been one hell of a ride for me too. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I didn't expect him to methodically destroy every remaining shred of my self-esteem. However, it did teach me something about him. His so-called "faithfulness" had nothing to do with love or caring for me. He did not love ME as a human being one bit. When he didn't "feel" in "love" with me anymore, he dumped me. It was only a matter of time, IMO, before he would have cheated on me or just kept on degrading me till I became the pitiful woman his mother is. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Now you know that my dear H turned right around and cheated on me, as well as the visits to bars, strip clubs, lap dances, etc... oh yeah, and of course <sarcastic grin> church. Vomit. Yep, I agree with you about this.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>People can act in a loving way with or without the presence of love "feelings".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>TOTALLY AGREE.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Bill mentioned a serial monogomist. That was my ex. Maybe he won't cheat, but he'll treat you like cr*p till you leave. Working on a relationship is more-or-less out of the question for him. It is funny all of the amazing insights he presented to me AFTER our divorce. Yea right, but too chicken to see it through with someone who knows his story and would make him stick to it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh yes, just like our therapist, who David visited a grand total of three times before he announced he wouldn't go back. Got a little to close to home!! Yep, I know.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Bill, if you are involved with some kind of 12 step program, you know what I mean. That is the good thing about those programs. They've heard the BS rationalizations so many times, they can call someone on it anytime it is necessary. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>For people like us to LOVE personal responsibility, 12 step programs are a god-send. Bill believes that, I know, so do I, and I would guess so do you.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Today I did lots of gardening and made a couple of trips to Home Depot. This is the time of year I miss my ex the most. We practically lived at Home Depot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR>Me too... <sigh> and this year we were going to make a garden room out of the patio. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This is also the time of year, three years ago, that I first came to school here and about the time my affair started. Sigh.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is the time of nothing to do with my affair, but I understand. I can remember, of all the stupid things, when OM and I would talk about waiting until it began getting darker earlier (like this time of year, our affair was over late Spring/early Summer)so we could hide out and nobody would see us. See, I have my memories too, and they disguist me now. <P>Sheryl

Bill,<BR>that was very sweet. "I will love you till you love yourself".<P>I know that some of the things my ex told me were true. One thing he said is that no love in the world is enough for me. At some level, that is true. When I'm feeling like this, nothing that anyone says seems to have an effect. Now, my ex wasn't a saint either. Problem is, he could destroy so many of the good things he had done with his cutting remarks. He knew how to hurt me, and he did it often (or often enough). He's not exempt.<P>Now, you mentioned something about justification, but did not go into detail. I know what the psychological stuff says...if there is a trait in someone else that bothers you, then it is likely that you have the same trait. I know that. I will never blame my husband for my affair, and at some level, can't blame him for my feelings about our marriage. What I will blame him for is his unwillingness to discuss our problems, and do anything to face his own. Like NB's husband, David, my ex went to a counselor a whopping three times after I told him I could not handle his anger anymore. Three times and he was done. Came to this forum once or twice. <P>Anyway, I know I don't have it all figured out, but at least I'm willing to work on it. My dad has an interesting take on addictions (and he has a few opinions about my own too, but I'll get to that later). He "thanks" the alcohol, in a way. He is grateful that he had something that forced him to analyze the way he saw the world. There are so many people who don't have a blatant addiction (like maybe me?) who have some real stinkin' thinkin' (as he says) and never identify the real source of the problem, and that is themselves. I know my ex is not the problem, I really do. My problem is that I still love him.<P>NB,<BR>I'm not pining over the OM. Not at all. He was a low-life bottom feeder who took advantage of me during a low point in my life. No, this time bothers me because I remember first coming up here, feeling so afraid, and lonely. Wanting so much to succeed in school, but terrified I was losing my marriage over it. I remember feeling completely disconnected, having no friends up here, and feeling like a complete failure in every way. It is not as bad now, in that I have friends, but this time of year reminds me just how terribly alone I felt at that time. I also remember telling my H how I felt, and him still having the friggin' balls to get on the phone and scream at me at the top of his lungs whenever he felt like it. Oh, of course, the next day it was all apologies and "I support you honey". Then I would tell him I would quit, and he would say no, then the next week go off on me about something else. Ugh. That, I don't miss.<P>My first H was the one who lived at strip joints and visited prostitutes all the time. At least my second H didn't do that. Oh, I e-mailed you!!<P>Heartpain,<BR>I know what you mean about repeating certain patterns. That is why I'm celibate now. I really don't trust myself to choose a good man. Although, I do think I am getting better. I dumped a loser I dated after my divorce in about a month. Now he's off with a married woman. Whew. As my therapist says...<BR>the first time you walk down one street, you fall all the way into a hole and have to pull yourself out. The next time you walk down that street, maybe you only trip over the hole but you still maybe sprain your ankle. The next time, you just avoid the street altogether. I'm avoiding the street!!

TS,<P>I have read this thread and you last post just brought tears to my eyes. I feel so sad for you. I wish that there was something I could say to you that you would understand. I wish so many things for you because I KNOW you can have a great life.<P>I am sorry I haven't posted much in the last few days, but I have been swamped in work and still am. I will try and post to you on the other thread, and whay I post will make you and Sheryl, happy. <P>Yet, I think you have finally admitted something that is so important: You are still in love with you exH. Don't you see TS, this is what everyone has been telling you. You are so capable of love. You have so much to give that any sane man, would have no difficulty understanding your experiences. But more importantly you asked about commitment and love. You wonder does it exist? Yes, it is obvious that it exists in you.<P>TS, I have more to say about you marriage and your exH, but I will save it for the other thread. I really only wanted to say, listen to Sheryl. She can get wrapped around the axel sometimes, but in all of the time we have communicated, she has proven to be a woman with a good heart and really a good understanding of poeple. <P>TS, I will say this, that while the marriage stats say the 50% of the marriages end in divorce, that means that 50% of the marriages are lifetime commitments. So it isn't impossible, and you with your experience and knowledge are a prime candidate to have such a marriage when you meet the right guy. And you know what? When you do, you will find he thinks about you just as we do here. <P>Must go but take care and God Bless,<P>JL<P>PS: Sheryl (aka, NB) keep posting.

Hello Student and JL,<P><B>Student</B>, you have mail <P><B>JL</B>, My posting days are coming to an end, one way or the other! As you know, I'm leaving town, leaving my job, and my computer is staying with my kids (maybe they'll apply for college! hahahaha, oh silly me ). Maybe then (blessed FINALLY) I can get away for good!! I don't really know if I can do it forever... darn it all, I love the people here, and I do appreciate the message here!<P>You know, this place is good, and as I've said, this stuff works... I truly believe that... but... I'm just not marriage building any more, at least not with David. This NM will get the benefit of what I've learned, and maybe that will fare us well as we begin our life together. <P>Okay, enough for now! <P>Wrapped around the axel? hahahahahahaha, you are sooooooooooooooooooooo funny!!! <P>Sheryl <P> <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited September 18, 2000).]

Hi NB,<BR>I'm at home now, so I'll catch your e-mail when I get to work tomorrow. Sad to hear you will be going completely offline, but understand why you would want to. Anyway, I'll be happy to have your company till you unplug!<P>JL,<BR>Almost every night I go to bed remembering how we would "spoon" each other. Neither of us could go to sleep without one of our body parts on the other. Usually, we'd just take turns "spooning". Certain mornings, when the light is just right, I remember the times I'd wake up and he was looking at me with a dreamy look on his face and he'd tell me how beautiful I was (with my morning breath and messed up hair and everything). Going to Home Depot and picking out tools together, with one of our arms wrapped around the other. I still miss him so much.

TS,<P>Man o man....those memmories of how things were are a real b****. I feel like that at times and it just saddens me to the core. Granted we are comming from opposite ends of this monster we not-so fondly call infidelity. However I truly believe that the feelings of missing our X is very similar if not the same. What to do??? For me I find that if I start to analise(sp?) them I get caught in the grips of coulda, shoulda, woulda. Know what I mean. To me that is my disease (addiction) talking to me. Si I just weather those thoughts and feelings til they pass, or say a little prayer.<P>You really got me thinking today about addiction, and how cunning, baffeling and powerful it is. It attacks me in the most blatant way, fixed target obssesion or in the street term a "jones". I get this most often over things. Thank God the obsession to put dope in my body was lifted a few years back, I no longer get the obsession to use, or at least today I didn't LOL one day at a time. That is where it is powerful.<P>The cunning and baffeling aspect are often times in my own self-centered thoughts and manipulative actions. I have to keep a wairy eye out for myself and check my motives in most everything I do. I usualy find out I'm doing something that is for the solepurpose of my benifit, whatever that may be. I have had to train myself to be self-less. I learned to do that by shareing my experience, my strength, and my hope to someone that is going through sometrhing I have and how I survived it clean and didn't act out on a defect of character. Or how I made amends.<P>As far as justification goes, it seems to me that you have justified your often bitter feelings toward relationships by useing the examples of your 2 failed marriages and those on this board. I'm not going to say you are unjustified or wrong in this because to me it seems this how you "feel". Just remember as I'm sure you do, feelings do not equal facts.<P>I want to ask you a very deep personal question. All through your life, how did you see yourself in the eyes of other people? Tell me if you can relate to this, do you find yourself feeling either greater than or less than another? I lived 28 years of my life feeling this way all the time. Most often in the less than mode, in spite of my false ego front.<P>Another thing that struck me was your comment about no love being enough for you at times. This is a textbook trait of An Adult Child Of an Alcoholic. My X was/is insatiable when it comes to recieving love, and she is ACOA. My SIL who is also living the life of an ACOA, had a book, that was very instramental in helping her sort out the feelings she had swirling around inside her because of her fathers alcoholism. I'll see if I can find it and get you the tilte.<P>The other things I was thinking of just dissappeared from my mind...LOL<P>If I recall them I'll post them...<P>Anyhow, just know that no matter what you have done in the past you can leave it there...And stay out of that " stinkin thinkin"<P>Love Ya,<P>Bill

I'm pretty certain this is the Book SIL had.<P><A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671645285/o/qid=969320050/sr=2-2/102-5395196-9283349" TARGET=_blank>A Guide For Adult Children Of Alcoholics</A><P>Check out the reader reviews.<BR>If you already have this just tell me to go take a flying leap...LOL<P>Bill

Hi Student,<P>Okay, we'll talk tomorrow... <P>...and I'm sorry that the memories keep flooding your mind. It hurts, I know, and I'm so sorry! Even still, I think of these kinds of things about David occasionally. Like you, it's the little things, like what you mention... a moment in time when we held hands, or looked at each other across a crowded room. <P>Now I will make new memories with the NM. I would guess that the David-memories will fade with time. But I would also guess that they will never completely go away... just the pain will ease. Having someone else in your heart obviously helps to heal that.<P>Bill, <P>My illusive friend! Just saying hi! <P>Sheryl

Bill,<BR>Honestly, I don't remember feeling particularly better or worse than other people until the last few years. When I told my second H about my life, I didn't feel like I was "less" than him. I just thought it was really important to give him the whole picture of my life so that he could make a decision about whether or not he wanted to spend more time with me. My first husband did not tell me about his past, and lied about what he did tell me, before we got married. I found out AFTER that this man had slept with something like 200 women by the age of 22 (and a few men as well), went to strip joints and prostitutes on a regular basis. Then he decides (again after we get married) that he wants an "open" marriage. Shoot, I was only 21. I didn't even know what an "open" marriage was. Had to go to the library to look it up. If he had told me before, I'm sure I would have made a different choice.<P>My second ex, for some reason, decided that he had to use my past against me. The way I saw it, he had two choices. Either stay with me and accept my past, or leave. Well, he couldn't do either. I figured that he stayed with me, therefore, he accepted my past. Or at least, he would trust me in time. He never did. He married me and didn't trust me, which I consider the epitome of selfishness. My self-esteem was slowly eroded away over the years.<P>I'll tell you this, though. I have always felt that I had to do something to be loved, that I had to earn someone's love. If you believe everything that Harley says, it backs up that theory. That "love" is all about meeting needs. That is one reason why I kind of rebel against that. When we were very small, we did not feel like we had to "do" something to be loved. We just existed. Now, I understand that we are all grown up now. I've twisted and contorted myself in every way imaginable, I've just been "myself" too, and still, I have never been really loved for ME. I give up. It's just not worth it anymore. I think that some people are just lucky, or are born a certain way, or are particularly attractive, funny, charming, whatever. Whatever it is that people have that manage to have a life-time relationship, I don't have. <P>I've gone to tons of therapy, read a ton of books, and I'm just fed up. I'm starting to accept the fact that some people, probably me too, are just too screwed up to hope for a life time relationship. That is something I just have to accept. I don't think that those other people are necessarily "better" than me, they just have a skill I don't have, and I don't think this skill is always something that can be taught, unfortunately. <P>Actually, I take that back. It probably is a skill I could eventually learn. However, how many men do I have to sift through, or let sift through me? How much more pain do I have to endure? I can honestly tell you, that NONE of the happiness I have experienced comes anywhere close to the pain I've experienced in relationships. <P>There are many, many people who don't want to get a PhD, for instance. They don't want to go to the effort, or have enough interest in a particular subject matter to go this level of education. Doesn't make me better than them. I just happen to have a skill and the interest to do what I do. There are other people who just are gifted when it comes to relationships, or the effort to learn is not as painful. I'm sorry, I won't be getting any PhDs in relationships. I've discovered that I don't have the skill and the pain required for me to learn is simply too great. Having multiple partners the rest of my life is not something I ever wanted, and I absolutely refuse to keep recycling men (or letting myself be recycled) and calling it love. It is not. <P>Goodbye you guys. I've made my decision. The more I talk about it, the more I understand that the part of my life where I could be in a romantic relationship with a man is now over. I had my chances, now it is done. Take care. I wish you all the best.<P>Love,<BR>TS<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited September 18, 2000).]

TS,<P>I don't know why but for some reason this thread has really struck a cord with me. Maybe it is because I identify with your feelings albeit not in the sone context but the same or similar feelings non the less.<P>thse are the feelings I see loud and clear.<P>Feeling different.<BR>People pleaseing<BR>low self esteem...very different from self assureance.<BR>Self-pity....on a very slight level<BR>shame and guilt...for bad choices<BR>desperation...only a hint of that but it's there<P><BR>Not that I can even come up with a solution but man, I can really identify with those feelings. I know that they suck. Like I said the cercumstances that cause these feelings are different but they are exactly how I feel on any given day. Oh I almost forgot...Throw pride and ego into the mix. I think that is what really makes us f***ed up. It's like a s****y life cocktail, guaranteed to make you all tangled up inside.<P>Not that I'm any kind of phsycologist I just grabbed onto these feelings because I really identify with them...<P>I need to go kill my legs and abs now but I'll check back later. I have a couple thoughts on your statement of acceptance.<P>Bill

TS<P>I have been following the threads you have started for several weeks. My ex-wife started her affair(s) in the fall of 1998 and divorced me last year. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>One of my biggest problems is that I can't imagine a truly decent guy wanting someone with my background.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The question I would ask is what is different about you now than from the past? What was it about you that allowed you to behave in those ways and what understanding have you gained and changes have you made? A person that does not take the time to get to know you as you are now and rejects you immediately because of your past is not a decent guy.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't believe that there are many people who are capable of a life-time commitment or real love. Just speaking for<BR>myself, I have no idea what love is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This will sound cliche, but love is a choice. It is the choice to put the needs of your spouse ahead of yours even when you don't feel like it. It is the choice to do what is right even when you don't feel like it.<P>Regards, Tom