I'm in counseling with my wife of 11 years. To make a long story short, she told me a month ago that during a stage where I was very depressed, she lost a lot of feelings for me and they haven't come back. Each time she felt like they could, we'd have a blowup about something. I had the feeling that something wasn't right for some time, and when I'd pressure her to open up, she'd go into her shell. After airing things, she wanted to try counseling as she wants things to improve and doesn't want our children to have a divided household. I've wanted to go to counseling for several years, so I'm gladly going - after 3 sessions, it has helped.<p>What I'm having trouble with is this: my wife says that her feelings have eroded, she can't say whether she loves me or not, she says the relationship is kinda platonic but not really, and she's wondered seriously whether it will ever work. At the same time, we kiss each other before work, when I get home from work, before bed, we have sex 2x a week usually, she wants this to continue, we get along better, we are affectionate at times, not everyday but we do stuff like holdhands or cuddle on the couch. I can't seem to understand or reconcile her words with what's going on otherwise.<p>I want to stay connected here, but at the same time not pressure her. Also, though, I don't want to leave myself unnecessarily vulnerable, and having sex for me means being vulnerable with her - sex for me is sharing myself as well as the physical gratification, and I don't feel good about doing it just as a release. I can't figure out how my wife can have these feelings, or lack of feelings, and yet still do the other stuff like sex and cuddling. I don't kid myself that everything is really all right, but it seems really strange that she would want to continue the physical stuff while at the same time having negative feelings. <p>Does anyone have any clue as to what this all means? I find it very confusing and try to just get on with life and have a good time. But it is strange to me.

Patrick,<p>Join the club. You will need to educate yourself on the female constitution. The Mars and Venus books are good in this respect. Don't make the mistake of looking for reactions that mirror those of a male. It will drive you crazy.<br>My own wife is somewhat like yours. We have sex 2 or 3 times per week. She has never cut that off. Unlike your case I don't get much hand holding or cuddling. Wish I did.<br>My wife has commented to me before that she thinks our sex life is "the way it should be done". How she can compartmentalize that from the rest of our relationship is rather incomprehensible to me.

Patrick,<p>As a wife who has had problems with her H I can tell you how I viewed it. I never denied him sex. I loved the cuddling and the hand holding when things were going well. I guess I figured that if things were going to get better I needed to keep this going. I have often thought that by doing these things it may help to bring back the old feelings that we both had and want. You ask how if someone does not love how they can continue to be intimate. For me it is in hope of finding what we had. Not causing more problems than are already there. There is also the reassurance that if we do make love that all hope is not lost. That there is still a chance. No matter what I am feeling. I hope this helps you.<p>Steph

Steph, your reply was interesting. Don't know your situation, mine didn't involve affairs, money, alcohal, etc., but my W says that during my depressed spell I chipped away at her self-esteem and when she lost her feelings, she didn't say anything in the hopes it would get better plus no options to separate. I sensed something was wrong and when I wanted to know, she felt a lot of pressure. Things finally came to a head a month ago after 2 years.<p>I'm real happy things are in the open, as I knew that my marriage was the big thing in my depression recovery I needed to settle. And, I love my W and am trying to do whatever is possible to keep our marriage alive. I've made a lot of changes and feel excited about seeing things from her perspective and improving my life and hers. Counseling is good.<p>At the same time, very difficult to love her and know she doesn't feel the same way. Very sad to see where we were and where we are now. I wonder when we have sex, etc., is she doing this because she feels she has to? Hard not to second-guess. She has asked for space, no pressure from me, not to bring up marriage stuff outside of weekly counseling. I have to mindread, or learn to ignore the obvious (bad moods, etc) when it occurs. Difficult and strange to do, as I trust and respect her but also feel vulnerable to all kinds of things that could happen here. This seems to be a problem that I can't fix like other problems in the past - time might be the fix as well as not trying too hard to fix it.<p>Does any of this behaviour sound familiar? Does your H perhaps feel the same way I do? Is it hard to open up after years of survival mode? I think that trying to get out of this mode has raised all sorts of issues for her, one being, does she really want to stay married to me? And, guilt that she doesn't have better feelings for me after I've done a lot of changing.<p>I think a lot of crap has built up and I hope that time and peace and respectful communication will make living with that crap possible for her. Don't know, it's hard to live with uncertainty, but I guess that it's critical how I deal with it - be open, loving, and yet no pressure. Does your H know that your intimacy with him is based on your desire for things to get better as opposed to love? Is there anything you can do to be true to yourself but at the same time compassionate to his feelings?

My story sounds just like yours. There are no affairs, alcohol or anything else others than the depression. I know exactly how your wife feels. My self esteem was completely torn down by my H and about two years ago I started to build it back up. I will admit that I have days where I question my love for him and have even told myself that I am only here because of the kids. There are other days that I look at him and feel torn up at the thought of losing him and being without him. The most common way to explain this for the men is that the women are confused. I guess we are. I'm not going to speak for all women but I expect things to be upfront and with the depression nothing was upfront. It was a day to day process. You marry someone believing that they will always love you and take care of you and then you find that you have to protect yourself from them. Can you see where the confusion comes from? There is also the feeling of failing some how. Alot of times I feel like I failed him because I couldn't make him happy. I know that is stupid but the feeling is there. I then think that maybe we shouldn't be together because I am not what makes him happy. My own insecurity plays against me.<p>I think my H may have some of the same feelings that you do. He would like for me to recognize that he is getting better and making changes and just move on. I can't do that. I wan't proof that the changes are permanent. The only way to get this is with time and consistancy. Yes he knows that sometimes sex is just to try and improve things and he accepts that. We have both been hurt in this. Me by his depression and him by me loosing some of the feelings I had for him. <p>How can I be true to myself and still respectfull of his feelings? If I knew the answer to that then I don't think we would be having problems. I try to be upfront and honest with him in a non-judgmental way. I tell him things like "I feel this way about that", or "I see it this way"....and then see how he sees it. To be honest six months ago when this came to a head for us I was more than ready to walk out that door and never look back. Now I know I will stay and make this work. It's not that so much has changed that I know we will make it but time has shown me that he still cares and has shown me that I still care.<p>Just be there for your wife. Do as she asks. Love her and help her and show her that the changes are for good. Be consistant and do your best not to break promises that you have made. Be honest and open and don't hide anything for the sake of keeping peace. It's ok to disagree just don't be judgemental. Respect her opinion and feelings. Good Luck. )<p>Steph

Thank you for the reply, Steph (and Bruce, before). My wife and you are a lot alike, I think, although you are out there actively dealing with things, whereas my wife is still holding a lot in. This is a little intimate, but last night I asked for sex, she said okay, we did it but it felt weird - she acted like she wasn't into it but I wasn't sure and didn't want to ask. Midway through she said she didn't have an orgasm in her and to go ahead and finish - and then laid there for the minute I took. Afterwards, she started reading a book and said nothing. So, I used our counselor's recommendation and said, I may be projecting, but I felt strange having sex and I'm wondering if you really didn't want to do it. She then said she wasn't at all in the mood but I had made it clear I wanted sex and she felt like she should go ahead with it. I told her that I tried to leave her every option to refuse, and that I would have felt good actually if she had refused in a nice way - no, I'm not in the mood, how about tomorrow or in a few days? But to bottle stuff up like that, it's hard to deal with - I try and try, and I don't feel like she's ready to say what's on her mind. Well, I'll take your advice on being patient, as at this point that's all I can do.

If things are going decently between my H and me I would gladly have sex just for him. We did this for a while. We'd call it quickie sex for him. Just as your wife said, I wouldn't have an orgasm in me. I convince my H that I REALLY didn't mind if we just did it for him. But all this was based on the concept that the relationship was fine and that we would have some great sex at times too. I think DR. John Grey talks about this in his book, Mars and Venus in the bedroom.

Patrick,<p>I did not always actively persue fixing things. Everytime my H would ask me what was wrong I would always say nothing. Everytime he would let me down on a promise I would mutter to myself how much I was hurt but I would look at him and smile like it didn't affect me. I was terrified of pushing him over the deep end of his depression that I did what it took to keep the peace. You must realize though, I have been dealing with his depression for going on seven years. After five I realized I had to take care of myself because he was starting to bring me down. Not until I felt strong and secure enough was I able to look and him and really tell him how I felt. How the depression had affected me. Even now there are times when I withdraw from him because I still fear that confrontation will make his depression come back. It is taking time. Time for me to see that he can handle confrontation and time for me to not have so much fear of the depression. Still some days are great and others are terrible. It's been eight months since he got help and we still have a battle ahead. I know being patient is hard, but you have to realize what kind of affect the depression has on those around you. Someone here in this forum compared it to an affair except the spouse doesn't have the right to be angry over how things are because depression is an illness that can not be helped, just controlled. The place I most often let my wall down and really open up to him is at therapy. This may be how your wife feels. The fear of saying something the wrong way is always in my mind so I save it for therapy where the therapist can help me choose the right words. Believe it or not she may be saving you some pain by waiting for therapy to air some of her feelings. Less chance of saying things that are misunderstood and hurtful. Being understanding with her, even when you don't, will help. It just takes time and I wish I knew how much. Good Luck. <p>Steph

Patrick,<p>I hear you talking about how your wife is acting and I can see you are just getting into this ordeal. I just wanted to tell you, as one who has been in it a while now, not to let these things get you down. At first it is very, very hard to take. I'm not saying it ever gets easy but once you understand more about the situation it becomes more manageable.<br>As I've said before my wife has not cut me off from sex. I feel fortunate because I read and hear all the time about guys that don't get it for months. Yet she does not respond as vibrantly as she used to.<br>Just like you there have been times when I told my wife I wish she had told me that she was too tired or just not in the mood instead of acting as if I was about to put her head on a chopping block. There were times at first when I refused sex on those terms because I said I refused to make love to a tree.<br>Famous last words. I'm a man. Let enough time go by and I'll gladly make love to that tree. I don't press for sex and I'm happy to say that right now I don't have to. She seems to want it also so we have a happy coinsidence there.<br>The main thing I wanted to get across to you is not to let your wife's seeming coldness bend you into a pretzel. If you determine to treat her consistently with a sincere honor that is your best hope of melting that wall around her. It may go up and down. Don't be fooled when you have a day when things seem great. She can go right back to the old way the next day. <br>But if you can learn to do without her affections and concentrate on loving her no matter what then you stand a good chance of turning things around. No quick fixes. just get prepared to work at it without expectation of return. Sooner or later things will either break for you or you'll know what needs to be done.

Bruce, that was pretty funny about the tree comment. My H is the same way; if I initiate because I can tell that is what he really wants and is determined not to ask, and then he does make love, he gets furious with himself afterwards for "giving in". I try to tell him it is just 'physical therapy' for him, and I don't mind doing even if I don't really want to. It is when he tries to get my body to respond in a different way that I get uncomfortable. And he can argue all he wants, but a tree will work for him on occasion!!<p>Patrick, I need advice. We havent started counseling yet, so maybe this question is impossible without the counseling as a route to communication. But how are you able not to talk about your relationship during the rest of the week? My H talks about ours at least once a day, and it is killing me because it is always unpleasant and rarely productive. And then he throws in little comments in the middle of conversations with other people, just to let me know what he is really thinking about.<p>He is driving me crazy by constant talking and arguing. In one respect, that has been good. I have lost 10 pounds by not being able to eat from my stomach being tied in knots!! A silver lining??<p>How do people live with all of this for years? We have been really struggling with this for two months, and he is ready to give up. He says that he will not live like this, nor will he put aside his needs/desires for much longer until I am able to give him what he needs to. And right now, those things are incompatible.<p>And here is Christmas coming.....

Maria,<p>It's difficult and I'm not always successful. It is very difficult and sometimes I don't think it's fair and I don't think it's helpng our marriage. But... for several years, I didn't fully realize my wife's feelings and I have come to the point where I feel that (a) I love my wife, (b) I want the marriage to last, (c) she needs stress-free time with me, and (d) this is what I have to do. Going to counseling and letting the counselor know that we're not discussing things has helped me feel better about it, mainly because we both like the counselor and trust her opinion.<p>I hope your husband can get to the point where I hope to be sooner rather than later - some of this painful stuff I'm going through is actually a good thing for me, it helps me to stand better on my own two feet. I just hope it works!<p>Good luck,<br>Patrick<br>

Patrick, I sure hope it works too!! We had a good day yesterday (with a good night as well!) I even initiated love-making because I wanted it -- although I think I wanted it more for physical stress release than for an actual showing of love. Anyway, during it, he started to really drive me crazy because he was almost devouring me and worshipping me and was so grateful that I "was letting him do this". Afterwards, it was the same thing -- eternal gratitude for my love. <p>When will he figure out how not to smother me and give me space? I need this sooner rather than later. Right now, I feel like it will be a long time before I want to really have sex again if it makes me this uncomfortable.<p>That stupid old vicious cycle again.<p>Maria

Maria,<p>You hit on something that's been my experience. My wife gives me no affection so I find that when we make love I'm ready to almost eat her alive. I find myself having to compensate for all the lost affection in a short period of time. <br>I don't worship or thank her for it but boy do I feel like the dam has been allowed to break for the time being.<br>In the absence of normal affectionate contact from day to day I don't know how else a man can react since we are hard wired in this way.

Bruce, you make me feel better about this. I will try to just look at it as a normal gut reaction instead of something he is conciously doing. Thanks.

Bruce and Maria,<p>I plan to bring this up at the next counseling session. I expect we're doing some "visioning," in which we envision what a good relationship w/each other would be like, then say something useful to the spouse - a demand for space, treating me differently, etc., that would help to reach this better state. Anyway, I plan to ask for more caring along the way, as it really helps in terms of stress relief. I'm talking about just cuddling for five minutes a day or every other day or something like that - fortunately, my wife feels that avoiding sex would be more stressful than not, and the cuddling is something I think she can do and feel good about it. Perhaps if the cuddling is viewed that way - Maria, it may help your husband to change his outlook more to something you can live with if he's feeling less needy, and look at the cuddling as doing something for him - a caring, compassionate response, not necessarily loving, but you're doing it because you hope that by doing it things can get better.

You have made a very good point about the cuddling, and I will try. It is just so hard for me, because for so many years, if I got even a little bit affectionate, he interpreted it as an invitation to sex. All touching became sexual touching. H would probably disagree with me! He says that he is just trying to show me how much he loves me and how desirable I am.<p>But, I will make a concious effort to be more affectionate!! Your advice will be taken -- promise! You are on the other side of things!<p>Also, he got angry the other night because we did get into bed and snuggled. Then he asked for me to promise that we would do that the following night. I told him I would not promise, but if we went to bed and were both feeling that cuddling was in both of our hearts, then I would be happy to do it. He got mad, because he says I cant even give him basic reassurance that I will try to work on this. I say I dont want to make promises that may not be kept -- I am trying to be honest with him. Now what?