Interesting reading if you can get your hands on it, and very very sad. Cover story says it's worse than you thought. Wayward spouses should have a look at this, of course, TIME had to also put in a piece directly following that takes an opposing view. I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO THINK! What a mess, for my little boys, what a horrible mess. Damn him.<P>Sorry for the short vent at the end.<P>------------------<BR><BR>Kathy

I haven't seen the article but would like to read it.<P>Regardless of what either article states, I think we all know this is awful for our kids.<P>I do think there are times when the children are better off with their parents divorced than with their parents staying together in a terrible marriage, but I think they are still unhappy or affected, nonetheless. <P>I just try to let them know how much I care and love them and so does their father. At least, he has stayed active with the kids and didn't walk out on them. I know I am lucky in that respect.<P>

Yes...<P>Check it out...<P><A HREF="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/articles/0,3266,55072,00.html" TARGET=_blank>Is Divorce Bad for Kids?</A><P> <P>Jim

There was an article in our local newspaper yesterday that also talked about this issue - I picked it up to read and couldn't, for it brought tears to my eyes. Thoughts went through my head thinking that I should have never done this (I chose the d)I should have just put up with the abuse (which was very verbal in front of the kids and physical behind the scene) for the kids sake. But you think to yourself which is worse growing up in an abusive household and never knowing the difference or the feelings that are brought on by a divorce (that feeling of abondonment and unsureness). Makes you wonder!

Dear DAlienated,<P>The TIME articles states twice that divorce is only better in the cases where there is abuse (physical, substance, etc.).<P>Studies have shown that children of abusers go on to become abusers themselves or become accepting of abuse as a normal part of relationships.<P>Furthermore, how long will you be able to weather the abuse before you get really hurt? The abusers tend to keep pushing the thresholds of hurt, and how long will it be before you cannot take the verbal and physical abuse anymore? The children will grow up soon and realise that there is abuse in the home, they may be angry that you put up with such terror.<P>God Loves You<BR>Take Care<BR>weep

If someone is being physically abused, why would they leave their kids behind with the abuser?<P>Unfortunately, what the article doesn't deal with is that PARENTS don't make the choice to divorce. In almost all cases, it is one parent who decides to find someone new, and at that point they couldn't care less about the impact on their children. Once there is someone new in the picture, the kids matter very little if at all. <p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited September 20, 2000).]

OMG DAlienated -<P>You should never have to endure that! It was referring to what Nellie said, the one parent that decides to go their "own direction" (you know, when their feelings or sex mean more than the LIVES of innocent children), definitely not to have people abused and put up with it. If you can prove it, please get your kids away from him because if he was abusing you, he will most likely do it to them in your absence and they are NOT safe! I don't know why he has any rights left personally, but I don't know your situation. I just have no tolerance for any kind of abuse, especially violence.<P>NSR - Thank you! You always come through!<P><BR><P>------------------<BR><BR>Kathy

I have now read the article and it really does make you think. But, unfortunately, my x read other articles that convinced him it was better to divorce. I had no choice. the article did go on to say that for those already divorced to remain strong and devoted to our children. I think we can all do that!! I think there will be much debate over this issue. I'm glad this book has been published. Regardless of who is right or wrong, it makes us all focus on the kids again which is so important!

NSR:<P>Can you find the other article that followed this one that Kathy refered to in her original post?<P>Jennifer

Jennifer,<P>How about <A HREF="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/articles/0,3266,52959,00.html" TARGET=_blank>Mom on her own</A>...<BR>...I hope that was it...<BR>...how about it Kathy?<P> <P>Jim

Nope, that wasn't it, but nice try.<P>It's late right now and I desperately need to sleep! I'll look at the magazine tomorrow and get back to you. It was an opposing view of divorce from the first article, not one about single momhood. It was just one saying bad marriages are necessarily the best for kids - yada yada yada.<P>I'm SO TIRED!! Nite nite.<P>------------------<P>Kathy<p>[This message has been edited by weirded out (edited September 20, 2000).]

Ok, back! I looked at the magazine and the opposing article is in "Viewpoint" called "Is Divorce Getting a Bum Rap" by Katha Pollitt who writes for "The Nation" (enough said right there). It seems to me that she actually encourages divorce, kind of like the attitude my H had - it can't be fixed, it's over, don't want to try. Well, lots of us didn't go there as a mutual decision.<P>Some people here may agree with it and I could see why, but it just hits me wrong. In my own experience, my parents fought and argued but stayed married until I (the oldest) was in mid-20's before they divorced. The stable, well-adjusted ones in my family are the 3 kids that had them both together parents, we have families and normal homes (I guess, except for my H who walked out on me but he is from a divorced family when he was little and followed his own dad's footsteps - I would have been content with him until I was old); the other three were in the home during the divorce and are majorly screwed up. The youngest sister was severely depressed, did LOTS of drugs, got married had a baby, divorced the same year, and her child is messed up to from the divorce, and is now on lithium for mental problems. One brother can't hold a job and is still trying to finish school at the age of 31, on welfare, and married a complete freak with purple hair whose from outer space and has severe emotional/mental problems of her own. My other brother won't hold a job and let's his wife support him, and has made comments that he can't wait until he's old enough to divorce her and have his life back to do what he wants, like dad. These are the three that went thru the divorce. All I can do is draw from personal experience and it tells me that the 3 of us who had both parents are well-adjusted. Just my little slice of the world I guess.<P>Anyway, Jim, you are the sensai of the internet - so that's the name of the article. I wouldn't even have a clue on how to pull it in here for people to read. Thanks.<P>------------------<BR><BR>Kathy

I read the article and it was very good. So glad that the "research" has finally caught up to what so many of us "knew" about the effects of divorce (albeit in an unscientific way).<P>My own parents stayed married through the worst of my dad's alcoholism and abuse. My mom had some pretty valid reasons to divorce him. In retrospect, I do think she should have taken us out of that environment. Both my sister and I have been divorced (both against our will, though). I'm glad they finally worked things out, though, and that I have both of my parents together. <P>The article does state that divorce is only better for kids if abuse or substance use are issues (check, and double check in my case). As I understand it, perhaps only 10% of divorces occur due to abuse, alcoholism, etc. So that other 40% don't have alot of excuses, IMO. What the article doesn't mention (and would be hard to research) is the effect that divorce has on nieces, nephews or more remote relatives. In my whole family (uncles, aunts, grandparents, parents, cousins), there are only three divorces. Even if one's own parents aren't divorced, if there are lots of other family members who are divorced the kids probably can still get the idea that divorce is an option if they don't "feel good" right now. <P>I am really afraid for my niece, and for my ex's nephews. Both his brother and sister are divorced. It was against his sister's will and she has decided not to date until her son is much older. My ex's brother is just a wimp. Divorced his wife cause she was not "nice to him", which is a bunch of bull.

Chill out EVERYONE. As we are all posting on this site means we are affected by this.<BR>Of course. So it is a very emotional issue for everyone who's come onto the site and taken a look at Wallerstein's reseasrch, in whatever publication. But take a closer look at the information/data/conclusions. Wallerstein has ALWAYS taken a dim view of divorce. Fair enough. Divorce is not a good thing. It hurts. It hurts everyone. It hurts to have plans and a "live" and dreams die.<BR>But when you get into the finer points of what's worth staying for, fighting for, or if anyone in a couple even WANTS to work it out, repair, then it's a different story. <BR>My ex didn't want to make change. We could have hung together in the same house, with separate private lives, but is that honest? Is that a good model for any child? I would think not. My parents similarly hung together through more than 20 years although they did not love each other and, believe me, I NOTICED. I hated it. It was so awful to exist in that environment. I vowed, first, to not have a marriage as bereft of love and affection as my parents' (of course, it takes two; didn't know who I was getting when I married in good faith...) and second, I vowed that if the loved died, I wouldn't carry on an empty charade as they did and hope my kid simply didn't notice or they would somehow be savvy enough to know what a herculean, better than a saint type thing I was doing for THEM. (Now isn't that a nice trip to lay on a kid?)<BR>KIDS NOTICE, THEY CARE, AND THEY LEARN from what they see in the house.

There is a reason why marriage vows include these words<P>"till death do you part"<BR>"for better or for worse"<P>They don't say <BR>"till love dies"<P>Your parents walked the walk. They didn't just talk the talk. Your parents provided a stable environment for you because they decided to stay together. Look at the hell so many of the people with joint custody are going through on this board. The article did not say that a bad marriage is ideal, just better than divorce most of the time. And the fact is, most divorces happen for totally selfish reasons from the parents. The kids aren't much of a factor, it seems, and even when they are the myth is that they'll "get over it". Well, the research is starting to show that they really don't just "get over it".

My parents had a high conflict marriage. They actually divorced before I was born and almost immediately remarried each other. They stayed together until my father's death, long after the children had moved out. My mother died only six months later.<P>I will forever be so grateful that they stayed together. They could have given me no greater gift. I NEVER doubted for a second that they loved each other, or that they loved me. Yes, kids notice. Kids notice that their parents love them, that their welfare is the most important thing on earth, and that when you make the commitment to marry you stay together through thick and thin, you don't bail as soon as things get tough. There is no lesson more important to learn than this. <P>At the risk of being repetitive, LOVE DOES NOT DIE. If it appears to have died, it is almost invariably because someone is having an affair. <p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited September 21, 2000).]

Sorry...<P>I found it... <P><A HREF="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/articles/0,3266,55109,00.html" TARGET=_blank>Is Divorce Getting a Bum Rap?</A>!<P> <P>Jim

Thanks for finding the article, Jim.<P>She claims that most people she knows spent years working up to divorce. Well, most people I know had absolutely NO IDEA that it was coming, no idea that their spouse was having an affair and was going to leave them for an OP. Even my H said after he told me that he wanted a divorce that he had felt that way for WEEKS, MAYBE MONTHS. Divorce is very rarely a considered decision.<P>And her comment that everything would be fine if the Mom (she is assuming, apparently, that that is the custodial parent) has enough money and Dad stays connected - well that rarely happens either. In far more cases, the Mom ends up in near poverty like I am, and the father sees less and less of the kids, and eventually virtually disappears from their lives, much to the joy of the OP.

Maybe this is where we come to <BR>an AHA! moment.<P>WHAT ARE WE going to DO about this?<BR>I don't think the answer is to sweep unhappy mommies and daddies back home and make them put up with each other until their kids leave home. Even then, I understand grown "children" in their 30s and 40s and 50s apparently take it quite hard when their parents finally get the divorce they put off for 10 or 20 or 30 years.<P>Why don't we try education? <BR>Why don't we try informing our children about and modeling for our kids what a GOOD MARRIAGE IS? <BR>Why aren't Dr. Harley's ideas, for example, *taught* in classes in school and in churches? Maybe he does have and offer a spiritual dimension, but a lot of what he writes and proposes is just good common sense, the kind a lot of us have intuitively about meeting others' needs, the kind of knowledge we have before we get swept out into the big world of individualism and self-attention. <P>So how are we going to spread the word,<BR>make it better for our kids, and change the world so we have GREAT -- no bad or even "good enough" -- marriages?

The Student et al:<P>My parents did NOT walk the walk. It was all talk. My mother had no job skills, there were 4 kids to raise, my father worked for paupers wages. There was NO WAY OUT for them, no opportunity to make a change and move on.<BR>My father was ill with a thyroid disease (now easily curable with thyroid replacement hormone), refused to go to the doctor (like many men), got worse and worse, finally slept the last 6 years of his life on the Barcolounger in the LR while my Mom got the bedroom. They didn't talk, they didn't hug, they didn't do ANYTHING together. My mother handled all of the childrearing by herself, including going to teacher-parent conferences alone. My father refused. <BR>This was not a stable environment; it was a static environment. And it was NOT healthy.<BR>I do not believe for one moment that many or most divorces happen for "totally selfish reasons." That implies flitting off into the sunset for the slightest slight from a spouse who looks at us cross-eyed. Most of us have tried, suffered, endured, attempted to make it right. We have spent thousands of dollars in counseling and months and years of anguish over the effects breaking up will have on our children. We have spent weeks reading books, attending parenting lectures and realize it's NOT a one-day event that "blows over." Selfish? Not unless rudimentary survival is selfish, which I guess it ultimately is. Believe me, suicide was on my list for a while because "no way out" and staying certainly could not have been the solution.