Ok, I just have to vent for a minute....I came home from work tonight to find the latest copy of my divorce papers in the mail. I read through it and everything seems to be in order. Now it's just time for my attorney's approval and my STBX's attorney can file for a court date. <P><BR>I was expecting this paperwork to be here, but it still makes me sad. I still just can't believe where we went wrong? I keep beating myself up thinking I could have prevented this, but I always come back to the same thing....how could I be expected to fix it if I didn't know it was broke?<P>I have so many questions, so many things I would like answers to, but there is only one person who can truly give me those answers and she won't. It just sucks.<P>I firmly believe that when the day comes that we all meet our maker that all of our worldly questions will be answered. No matter what happens in my life from this point forward, these questions will be forever be encrypted in my list of questions.<BR>

I can relate - I have to go home during the day to check on the dog, and that is when the lump comes up in my throat - When I have to check the mail. Would you believe that I sift through the mail before I even take it out of the mailbox? Just waiting for another letter from her attorney. I have gotten a couple letters over the past months basically asking me to have my attorney contact him. Why so they can begin their phone calls and start their meters running?<P>When she first came to me she wanted to handle the divorce by ourselves, then take it to a mutual attorney and have in put it in order. But the way she approached me about it made me sick - She came over all happy and laughing and smiling. She gave me a hug and a kiss, then said she wanted a divorce (well not exactly, she never said that word "divorce" - BTW: Still has yet to say it). She made it sound like we would sit down over "cookies and milk" and kill our marriage. I became very defensive and asked her "you really think this is going to be so easy, don't you". She flipped out and left.<P>My point was not that I was going to be a jerk, rather I wanted her to know that a divorce is not a walk in the park, especially with all the emotions going on. She took it that I was going to be an *ss - She called her dad that night and he was on the phone the next morning getting her an attorney. I did not find this out until weeks later when I got the first letter from her lawyer. I asked her what this was all about and then she told me why she did it (because she thought I was going to get mean). I explained to her what I actually meant, but of course she did not truly believe me.<P>We spoke a few weeks back and she brought up the attorney again. I said "I thought you wanted to handle this by ourselves". She said that she did, but that I said I did not believe in divorce and that a "no fault" divorce would be out. I told her again that I did indeed NOT believe in divorce, but if she wants one, I am not going to stop her. And instead of going to court, paying all kinds of fees, and letting it get ugly, that if it had to happen, I wanted it to be a "no fault" divorce (which by the way, gives her another year from now to think things over).<P>Then two days later I emailed her that it was not because I "did not believe in divorce" or for my religious beliefs that I did not want to end our marriage, it was because I still loved her and would do anything to stop us from making the biggest mistake in our lives. That has been the last time I really have heard from her or her lawyer.<P>But, those trips to the mailbox are still the worst part of my day.

The similarities never end as I dread the daily trip to the mailbox as well. I sift through the letters before my key ever hits the front door. When this first started with me my STBX, she had just said she was unhappy in this relationship. When it was obvious that she wasn’t willing to work on it and she just wanted to move out I had to ask her what was really going on. I said, “if you don’t want to work on this marriage and you are going to move out, why don’t we just call this a divorce?” She replied very sadly, “don’t say that” About 2 days later, she quit wearing her ring and started in with the divorce talk. I asked her why she hadn’t wanted me to mention the ‘d’ word earlier and she said it was because a divorce was a scary thing. But once she admitted to herself that a divorce is what she wanted, there was no stopping her. This is the most determined I have ever seen her about anything since I’ve known her. Pretty sad huh?<P>We also wanted to handle things on our own, then take it to a mutual attorney. Unfortunately for us in Kansas, this is a conflict of interest and one attorney is not able to work with us both. Since my W wanted this, she had to hire an attorney (at her cost) to draw up the papers and then it was up to me to decide if I wanted to hire an attorney to review the papers before I signed them. It’s unfortunate that the attorney’s had to get involved, especially for the amount of money my wife had to pay for her attorney to simply take the separation agreement that I had already prepared, then she just added some legal mumbo-jumbo and her signature. What a waste!<P>My W had considered therapy at first, but since she was adamant about wanting out, I opted for her not to go because I thought it would be a waste of our time. I’m wondering now if that was a mistake? Oh well, I can’t change the past and have made it very clear, many times, that I wanted this marriage and would do anything to salvage it. But as the saying goes, you can’t squeeze blood out of a turnip! I would be curious to see how many tears I’ve shed during this? I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s close to a gallon by this point. Last night was one of my harder nights in awhile. It was the first time I cried myself to sleep in almost a month, something I truly did not miss.<P>My W has also thought that I have been acting crazy during this process and at times she didn’t know who I was anymore. Why is it that when women are emotional, we men are just supposed to be understanding and sensitive, but when we’re emotional, we are labeled as crazy? My W thought I was going to be mean to her too and she has expressed much concern about the safety of her belongings that are still in the house until she has a place for storage. After 7 years and knowing that I still want this marriage, how could she possibly think that I would become mean to her and destroy her stuff? Angry about what she is doing I can understand, but she should know me better. She has expressed some very strange views and I have heard some true hatred coming from her in regard to the way she has spoken to me on occasion. She is even afraid that I would start stalking her! She knows that I am a gentle person and stalking her would be the last thing I would do. What a completely devastating thing to hear your wife say. I think she is getting advice or coaching from an outside party, probably by some of the other women she works with. I don’t think the things she has said coincide with a male’s point of view. She has sounded like a women scorned and that anger is being directed toward me. Why do I still continue to love and care about this woman who is causing me so much pain?<P>I just have to remember what a friend of mine told me. She said, “just remember that she was going to leave no matter what. If she didn’t want to leave, then she would have told you that there were problems.” I know it makes sense when you hear it, but it will just take awhile for it to set in.<P>I can fully understand your reasoning for choosing the name SoTired as your screen name, especially if you are a fan of Ozzy Osbourne! If not, he has a very ‘fitting’ song by the same name. <BR>

I think us showing our "emotional side" is just so out of character for us, that our wives don't know how to take it. I think when woman say they want an "emotional man" they don't really mean it, or rather don't understand what that would truly mean.<P>There was a great episode of "Friends" in which Bruce Willis makes a guest appearence. Rachel tries so hard to get him to "open up" and "share" his emotions with her. Finally when he does, everything comes pouring out and she begins to view him as weak and pathetic. While it was a "blown out of proportion" situation to make good television, I think the underlying concept speaks volumes.<P>I think it goes to the differences between men and women. Each difference was put into us by God. Separately, men and women are good, together they become "one" and are great! Each brings to the table their own strengths and weaknesses that compliment each other.<P>I don't understand why our society is always trying to fight what I believe is "hard coded " in men and women's DNA. Men and women are just different. Neither is better or worse, they are just different. Since feminism took root in the sixties and seventies all the "lines" have become blurred and no one seems to know what is "right" anymore.<P>That is my take on it for whatever it is worth.<P>My brother just got married a few weeks ago to a fantastic woman. We all became such good friends. But today she emailed me, complaining about how he acted in a certain situation. I heard the "seeds" of what my wife used to say. I wrote her back the following anecdote:<P>----------------------<P>Think of it like a party: If you are at a party and the couple sitting next<BR>to you is arguing and fighting the whole night, when you get home chances<BR>are you will be stressed out and you will think "that party sucked, everyone<BR>was fighting". When in fact it could have been the best party ever, only you<BR>got stuck next to the worst part of it and that is what you focused on. Focus<BR>is key - I really believe that is a major flaw with ****** and our marriage. She<BR>only focused on me and the bad.<P>-----------------------<P>I told her that she can't begin to focus only on the bad. She needs to take the "whole" person into account. Yes my brother has flaws, we all do - your wife does, my wife does, I do and you do. But a successful relationship is loving someone "in spite" of those flaws. Accepting them for who they are. Men and women ARE different, but that is what makes this world so much fun and so interesting.<BR>

I feel a bit like I'm intruding on a private conversation here, but the similarities between your stories and mine is so startling. I don't even have to tell you; you know it all from your own experiences.<P>My wife set up an appointment with a lawyer about legal separation for next week.<P>OM broke things off with her about three weeks ago, just before a two week vacation we just got back from. We talked heart-to-heart several times during vacation. She really misses him, and tells me how he's so great. What kills me is that I know I'm at least as good, at least NOW I am. I want to tell her, "I AM BETTER!" But I don't think that'd go over so well. What was also revealing is that she fully intends to be with him soon. I think that's why she's rushing through legal separation. OM (who I have talked to, actually), is a very careful, patient man who does not want to break a marriage. I did tell him that I was trying to patch things up. I'm guessing she's going to try to contact him some time soon. I hope he's still as careful. He's quite a gentleman, by the way.<P>She doesn't seem to yet want divorce, and I'm not sure why, and I sure don't know how to ask. I asked her what the difference was between legal separation and divorce. She said she actually wasn't sure, and the thought it just had to do with whether you can remarry or not.<P>We had a little bit of a spat last night. We were having a nice chat, and then she said, "You should take off your ring so you can date." I told her that I won't be dating for a long time. "Why?" "Because it's too soon. I haven't worked through all my feelings and it wouldn't be fair to whoever I was dating." She said, "I'M going to date." Here is where I think I started acting in ways I regretted. "Go right ahead!" I said. "I won't. It's cruel." Then I left the room because I didn't think there was much else to say. Later, I felt like I shouldn't have left like that. I wrote her an email apologizing this morning. She was very busy in the morning, and we had an odd schedule today where I was leaving the house just as she was coming in. She behaved very coldly to me. I sent her another email just to tell her chores I did so she wouldn't have to worry about them. She hasn't emailed back or called. I'm not sure if it's a mood, or she's pissed about my behavior (doubt it; it wasn't so bad), or about my email, or (most likely) I'm reading too much into things.<P>Similar to you guys, my wife has never been alone. She married right after college, divorced, then dated me immediately. She feels this is one reason she wants out. She needs to be on her own. Sound familiar? I wasn't sure how I felt about this, but reading your posts makes me think this might be a good idea. I'm not sure about her moving-out plans. I'll be starting a job that takes me away from the house for most of the week temporarily, and I'm hoping she won't move out.<P>What's my point? I don't know. I just had to say something.

Ok ST200, your point of view and thoughts are truly amazing. I have said before that I was the best guy I know, well I may have found my match in you You really seem to have a good outlook and good perspective in regard to our situations. Again, the similarities are just eerie. It’s funny that you mentioned that episode of friend’s with Bruce Willis. When my W first told me she wanted out, it was about 11 o’clock at night and we were getting ready for bed. My initial reaction was that of shock, but I showed no real emotion. I woke up at about 5 in the morning, sobbing hysterically with my wife holding me. At some point in the night as I slept, the reality of the situation sunk in and emotions just took over. During that first week, the waterworks were virtually non-stop, as was my mouth about my feelings. I even tried to make light of the situation by comparing myself to Bruce in that exact episode!<P>Something happened today that I am not very happy about and I have very mixed emotions as a result. My attorney called because she wanted my approval to have my STBX’s attorney make a few minor changes to the divorce papers, again. Some of the legal language was not what she wanted and she wanted it clarified. My attorney is only doing her job, which is to look after my best interests, so of course I didn’t have a problem with her requesting any changes. The other attorney agreed to make the said changes, and being nice (or so I thought) I sent an email to my STBX telling her about the situation.<P>I received a phone call from my STBX shortly there after who was very upset, mainly because these changes are not free and she is having it rough financially since she is on her own (by her choice mind you). She knows that I did not ask for these changes and I am not intentionally trying to cost her more money. She was just upset about more legal fees. After a few seconds on the phone, she was crying. She was calling from work and I attempted to calm her down, so that she would not be embarrassed or too emotional at the office. I even suggested that she call me when she got home, but she wanted to discuss it right then. She soon realized that this was not my fault and like it or not, it was just a normal part of the divorce process.<P>Then she asked to come by the house tomorrow evening to pick up some personal belongings. I agreed and she asked if I could not be here during that time so that we didn’t have to see one another. She still has keys to the house, but she was not aware that I changed the locks a few weeks back. This was tough….I told her that she could come over whenever she wanted, but that I would have to be here to let her in. She asked, “why, did you change the locks?” Naturally I said, well yes I did. The tone of her voice was complete shock and distain when she answered, “I can’t believe you did that” and she started crying a little more.<P>I immediately had a rash of emotions come over me. I felt ashamed that my wife was crying over something I had done. I felt deceitful as I had changed the locks on our home w/o her knowing. I felt controlling as now she must ask for permission to be let into the house. I felt betrayed that she showed more emotion about me changing the locks then she has about anything else this entire time. And most of all, I felt guilty that I was in complete control of this situation (for once) and I couldn’t help thinking that she deserved everything she was feeling at that very moment! Maybe I’m starting to move on?<P>She’s the one that wanted to be independent and to see what the real world was like. Well I think this was probably just a little dose of reality for her. I feel like a father raising a rebellious teenager. I’m just giving her what she wants and although I can see all of the mistakes she is making, I just have to step back and let her learn for herself. It’s what she wanted. Why should I feel guilty about that? <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Jayhawk 93 (edited September 27, 2000).]

FTANAKA:<P>Welcome to our own private (more or less) hell! Don't worry about feeling like you are intruding on a private conversation as we are communicating in a public forum so that we can all help and support each other. Just my opinion, but if someone gets offended if you add your two cents in a public forum, then they ought not be writing in public! Ok, enough about that.<P>Your situation scares me. Your wife openly is involved with another man, who you’ve met, and yet she is not sure she wants a divorce? Unless you are in one of those open marriages where the extramarital dating is natural, what the he** is she thinking? It sounds like she wants her cake and wants to eat it too. <BR> <BR>“OM broke things off with her about three weeks ago”/” She doesn't seem to yet want divorce, and I'm not sure why, and I sure don't know how to ask.”/” Similar to you guys, my wife has never been alone. She married right after college, divorced, then dated me immediately. She feels this is one reason she wants out.”<P>It seems obvious to me that she wants to be involved with this other man, but that relationship is not stable enough for her to leave her marriage. She obviously does not want to be alone and she is hanging onto the marriage as a type of safety net. I don’t possibly know how you can be handling this? You are a much stronger man than I to stay in this type of situation. I thought I wanted to know if my wife was involved with another man, but don’t. At least not right now. If she told me that there was another man, but that it was over and she wanted to reconcile, then it would be ok to know. Otherwise, I would think that it would be pure torture. <P>As far as the legal separation issue, that is going to vary from state to state. In Kansas, a legal separation is just about as official and complex as a divorce, so most people do not choose that route. When my wife moved out, I was unsure of the legal ramifications for each of us if the other got themselves into some type of financial debt and since we were still getting along, I wanted to cover my a$$. An attorney friend of mine suggested that we write up our own separation agreement which basically just listed out all debts, liabilities, property and possessions at the time of the separation including who was responsible for what. We both signed and dated it (notary optional) and viola, we had our own ‘legal-binding’, signed, written contract! There was always the chance that this doc could get thrown out in court, but at least we were each protected in case the other was persuaded to not play nicely down the road. In our case, it worked like a charm. I’m not sure what she meant about the ability to remarry, while legally separated unless she meant getting married to someone else and not a reconciliation. Again, I’m not an attorney myself, but I think that varies by state. In Kansas, one cannot remarry for a minimum of 60 days (I think) once the divorce petition has been filed with the court. I don’t know of any state that would allow a second marriage if there is only a legal separation filed and not a true divorce, except maybe Utah <P>I don’t know. I’ve read your post again and the hairs on my neck are still standing on end. As hard as it is, it is not up to you to convince your wife that you are the "better man." If she can’t see that for herself, then you don’t need her. At least that’s how I’m starting to feel. I have so many people telling me how great of a person I am that I am almost looking forward to meeting someone that will appreciate me for who I am and that will truly want to be with me. I am a good person and I deserve that, as do all of us <P>You hang in there and keep us posted. I’m sure that ST2000 will be able to add some insights that I have missed.<BR>

ftanaka,<P>Where to start?....<P>First, any man, let me say that again, any man, that intrudes on anothers marriage is a faceless, spineless piece of garbage (in my opinion). I hate to be the one to tell you that, but they are. In my opinion, marriage is one of the most sacred bonds and promises you can make in life. The words "what God has brought together let no man come between" speaks directly to your situation. You need to be very cautious with this person... He has a lot of things that can (and I believe will) ruin what is left of your marriage if left "unchecked": He is "new", "different" - there are no arguments or bad times for your wife to remember with this man. He may be comforting her, giving her compliments - things she should only be allowing to come from you.<P>In my experience I explain it like this: When a woman goes to a man outside their relationship there are two types of men that are waiting - the devil in sheeps clothing and the "white knight". Both types are dangerous. The "devil in sheeps clothing" is your typical "player". He is someone who is turned on by the "challenge". He knows all the right things to say and he says them well (ie. "He said what? Oh I just can't believe that - you deserve so much better", "Well if you are not happy, you need to get out for both of your sakes", "If I had a woman like you, I would never treat her like that" and on and on). He is out for one thing - to get your wife. These men are scum, pure and simple. Worse yet, once they succeed in winning over your wife, they dump her and move on to the next conquest. They "play" on your wife's need for emotional support and the confusion and sadness that usually accompany marital problems.<P>The "white knight" is a little less evil, but the end result is the same. This is the man who puts his nose into other people's relationships. Things start out as a good friendship. He has no intentions (at first) for your wife, but as time goes on and she shares more and more of her marriage with him, they form an emotional bond. Sooner or later, either your wife or this man gets a little confused and they begin to make casual "passes" to the other. Now the trouble begins. Your wife eventually will become confused and the "newness" of this friend becomes more appealing than trying to fix the problems with your marriage.<P>My advice to you, especially since you already communicated with this man is to go to him and confront him. Tell him politely but firmly that he has "NO" business with your wife. Explain to him that you both are having problems and that you would very much appreciate it if he "backs off" and severs ties to your wife. You could even go as far as to say if things with your marriage don't work out, then he can feel free to do whatever he wants. Then wait for his reaction. If he really is "just friends" with your wife he should agree to stop ALL contact at least for now. If he has alterior motives, he will most likely get defensive (and probably go back and tell your wife). Sure your wife will be mad at you, but at least you will know what is going on and will be in a better place to proceed how you see fit.<P>Finally, don't blame yourself. I think there is one simple piece of proof that you are a "good man" - you are here and you are looking for help. As Jayhawk93 can attest, both of our first reactions to our wives issues were to "blame ourselves". It is only natural. What you need to do is come to grips with where you think you went wrong in your marriage, forgive yourself, ask God to forgive you, then begin to learn from the "stumbles" you made and work on improving who "you" are.<P>And please don't hesitate to jump in on any conversation here. On the phone last night I just told a friend how comforting it is to know that there are other people out there with similar (if not nearly exact) problems as me. It helps me to see that I am indeed not the only one who is to blame for my marital problems.<P>Take care and good luck.<BR>God Bless