On recent posts here, I feel there may be some misunderstanding about why I am divorced, and the circumstances around it. I just want to set the record straight. <P>My x had a two+ yr affair. I found out about after 6 months. We separated, and I got Dr. H's book. I read it, I agreed with the philsophies and my x and I agreed to counseling, and he returned home. At no time did I ever WANT a divorce. But he continued the affair,only this time he was sneaky about it. He still told me he loved me, he still "made love" to me, but was also with her. <BR>I finally found out again, and Plan A'd my heart out. But he would not give it up. So I went to plan B. I only filed for divorce because I had to protect my kids and my financial interests. in fact, in our sep. papers, he was given the option to come come if we would agree to counseling and to work on the marriage. <BR>I was faithful to him the whole time. I did not see any one else. I always told him he held the key, the divorce could be stopped at any time. But he went through with it. <BR>I know I did everything I could to save my marriage. After 17 yrs and two kids, why wouldn't I? I had everything to lose.And I lost it. <BR>But, I cannot turn the clock back. I cannot make him love me again. He wanted out. He got out. He has never wanted to come back. He just didn't have the guts to make the first move.<P> Now I have to go on with my life. And, if in going on with my life, I can find happiness in another relationship, then I want to pursue it. I always like being married. I enjoyed having someone with me. I had wished it was my X, but it was not to be. <P>I feel this board is for all of us. All of us have been hurt by divorce, and are in our own ways, trying to heal. I don't want anyone here to think I did not do all I could to save my marriage. I did as I am sure all of us here have. If we hadn't, why would we be here in a MB site?? <P>I know that the things I have learned here, and the threads I read all assist me to grow and get over all of this. I want NOONE to get the idea that I just flitted in and out of my marriage. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

Sue: Please HANG TOUGH through this and<BR>don't give up! As I've noted in a few msgs. on all these boards, the storm of emotions most of us feel about our relationships are part of what has driven us to be here at MB. You said much the same. I, too, am one who gave all, did all that was possible to keep my marriage alive but, in the end, it did not work. It does take two. But I refused to be a lamb on the altar and try to learn to just exist or die very slowly every day for want of attention, affection, recognition by the man I thougtht was my SO and had promised to be that for me. I also thought hard about the example I would give my son, now a teen, if I did stay and endure it all: it's OK for a man to ignore and neglect his woman, treat her like a co-worker, heck, she'll hang around and still take care of you. I won't let manic guilt trippers -- many of them people whose marriages are also falling apart and they are absolutely scared to death of having to face it -- stand in front of me and give me a hard time. So HANG TOUGH AND KEEP ON KEEPIN' ON.

Sue, I don't know your whole story, but I'm sure no one here on these boards believes you just flitted in and out of your marriage because if that were the type of person you were you'd never be here to begin with, for those type of people certainly don't give a damn about anyone but themselves. We're here for your support and vice versa. Take care. Jax

I agree with Jax. I don't think you'd be here and still be working on yourself if it didn't matter.

My sister Sue...<P>...Your story line one of the "typical" success stories...<P>No... the marriage was not salvaged...<BR>...but by going through the <B>process</B>...<BR>Plan A ... with lots of growth...<BR>Plan B ... with still more growth...<BR>Divorce ... for protection...<P>...you've done it all!<P>I'm so proud of you. <BR>You (believe it or not) are one of my mentors!<P>You have nothing to feel guilty about...<BR>You worked as hard as you could...<BR>...to save it all.<P>You are a prime example of a "great" parent too! Keeping the "role model" of a honorable parent <B>IS</B> important.<P>I hope when my day comes... (10/10/2000)...<BR>...I can feel as good as you do!<P> <P>Jim

Hey Sue,<P>Your situation is very similar to mine. I finally threw in the towel more out of protection for me and my kids than anything else. I let him know the door was open, but he wasn't and still isn't interested. The only real difference between you and me is you still have some faith about a future relationship whereas I do not. I don't intend to put myself through that possible torture again. What a nightmare! But I NEVER thought you gave up easily. At some point, everyone has to get to their breaking point and you reached yours just like I reached mine. Maybe I was wrong to do that, but I had to do what I thought was right for me and my kids. The ex certainly wasn't thinking about us. <P>Keridwen<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Keridwen7 (edited September 22, 2000).]

Sue,<P>I hope none of my messages caused you guilt at all. I would never try and judge anyone here. True most of my posts deal with the sanctity of marriage and in keeping my vows, but "how much is enough" is a personal decision for each one of us to make. Each one of our situations is different, each one of us different people. We all have different belief systems and we all have different wants and needs. None are right or wrong, they are just different.<P>I know that if things in my marriage keep going the way they are that I may have to come to the realization that it is time to "move on". Nothing anyone says or does will effect that decision, it will be a personal decision between myself and God.<P>To wordvixen:<P>>>"I won't let manic guilt trippers -- many >>of them people whose marriages are also<BR>>>falling apart and they are absolutely<BR>>>scared to death of having to face it --<BR>>>stand in front of me and give me a hard <BR>>>time." <P>Again, lets not judge or resort to insults. Right now I believe in hoping, in trying. You sound like you used to be there as well. In your mind you gave your "all" and that is to be commended. I agree that no-one should be trying to "make" you feel guilty ("let him among us without any faults cast the first stone"), but in the same respect you should not look down on anyone just because they still have hope and are still fighting for what they believe in...There isn't anything wrong with that is there? Who's to say when someone still has enough strength left to fight for their marriage or when they are too afraid to "let go"? I can't, that is for sure.<P>Sure I tend to bring up religion a lot, but that is what is important to me (always has been). But I know that one of the most basic principles of Christianity is "not to judge others". I also know that some don't have a religious belief system and that is OK. I don't discount anything someone says just because they don't have God in their lives. They are still good people, right?<P>I strongly believe that "people posting what they feel" is a good thing - no matter if you agree or disagree with what they are saying. We shouldn't get mad at someone or resort to name-calling or belittling them if they don't see things as we see them.<P>And Sue, you don't need to explain your situation to anyone if you don't want to. I come here mainly because of all the different viewpoints shared on this board. Some I agree with, some I don't. Sometimes I need a "smack in the face" to help me "wake up", other times I just need a sympathetic pair of ears (eyes:> ).<P>This place has been a real help over the weeks/months. And I value everyone's views and where they are at in their own situations.<P>Can't we all just get along????

Sue,<P>I have felt a kinship to you for many reasons. We are close to the same age, we have husbands who chose sex with a younger woman for a couple years over marriage and the family, we worked at getting the marriage back, not just for us, but for the family. We never expected to be divorced, but it was a situation that was thrust upon us. People might say that we did the divorcing, (oh and they will), but we didn't end the marriage, the affair did. I can look up the verse in the bible, it escapes me at the moment, that a Christian may appropriately consider divorce as an option in cases of adultery or abuse.<P>I have respected you because you have never attacked anyone personally, and have been supportive of everyone's efforts in attempting reconciliation, and in their attempts to forge a new life, if their reconciliation attempts have failed.<P>I have thought what a kind person you are, for gently helping others through tough times and questions, and ego blows, and self doubts. I have felt the kinship with you, from "having been there" your empathy for others is genuine. I admire that you don't attack others who attack you, because you see their pain, but you come to the defense of those who are vulnerable, when they are attacked.<P>I admire you because you have figured out how to be comfortable as a successful career woman who is comfortable with her feminine side. You are secure in yourself, as a woman, as a mother, as a businesswoman. You don't see yourself as victim in any of your roles. You don't labor to prove you are as capable as any man by acting condescending to other women.<P>You are a strong person, who has survived a horrible situation, and grown to be a better person. You have class, Sue. I recognize it. <P>

Hi Sue,<P>I VERY RARELY post anymore because I'm in a somewhat similiar situation as you, except I've taken it a step further. <P>My "last chapter" story is here:<P> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/005461.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/005461.html</A> <P>I just want you to know that you aren't alone in your feelings, that I understand the need to try to explain your feelings,and that, most of all, your feelings are valid.<P>Take care, and best wishes as you begin a new life. I know you didn't ask for it, but now that you have it, do good with it!

Sue:<P>I'm glad you decided to post about your situation. And, I know where you are coming from. I too sometimes feel critized for deciding to move on with my life. I think you are a very smart, intelligent woman with a lot of insight. You tried your hardest in your marriage but had no control over it's final outcome. That was the same for me. We are powerless over other people. <P>So, when we don't have a choice in the matter, we must decide what to do next. We have both decided to move on and learn from our pasts. I think it is a good thing that we haven't given up on men or relationships and possibly re-marriage someday. <P>Please keep right on posting and helping all of us who get so much out of your posts.<P>Jennifer

Sue,<BR>I'm glad you told your story too. As you know, I tend to be, um, expressive. I wear my heart and emotions on my sleeve. So, when I would read your posts, and found them more calm than some others who were going through divorce, I just assumed you didn't care that much. I was wrong, and I apologize.<P>As thl says...<BR>Peace

I am happy that you have found the courage to live again. Like I said in another thread, I have been burnt twice in the two marriages, and it took a long time to get up and dust off the hurts. <P>Now I count everyday as a blessing because of my baby and God. I even sneak in a thought every now and then that PERHAPS I will find my soulmate in my winter years (by then baby would be married, and my WS would be?) .<P>You are so magnanimous about the WS. Best wishes to you.

Thank all of you so much!!! There are so many emotions, the loss of a marriage, the loss of a life that you once envisioned for yourself ,the reality of your children living in a single parent home, that it at times has been a real struggle for me. I truly felt at times that my life was over. <P>Then I woke up. I knew I had two wonderful children, I was healthy and so were they, and it was my duty and responsibility to them to be the best I could be. <P>I remember one time, just after the last separtation that I was so down, that I just couldn't hold it together one night. I lay on my bed, sobbing uncontrolably. My chest ached as if I was having a heart attack. I just wanted not to feel so much pain. Right then my 13 yr old son walked in on me. <P>The look on his face was total terror. He was so afraid for me. I knew right then and there I HAD to get my life in order. I HAD to be there for my kids. I HAD to get out of these scary feelings I was going through. <P>I resumed counseling, I made myself be the strong parent I had to be. I still felt sadness, but I was not going to let those negative feelings bury me. I was going to concentrate in putting myself first, then my kids. The I could be the parent I needed to be. <P>Since I have done that, my life every day is getting better and better. Had you told me this a year ago, I would have poo-pooed it. But it works. <P>I will always feel some guilt about putting my kids through a divorce. I truly hope my X finds what he is looking for. But I will survive. <P>To those of you will working on your marriage, I say DO IT!! You must do everything possible, because your marriage is important. As Dr. H says in his book, SAA, you must to it, otherwise you will be saddled with regrets. Had I only been able to see what my x needed, perhaps things would have been different. <P>Different or not, I am on my way to a good and wonderful life. I will always have wonderful memories of my marriage, and I choose to put away the bad. I have learned from this experience and will give my next relationship the devotion it takes to succeed. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

We had a very similar epiphany Sue. <P>After my boys would go to sleep, I would usually end up sobbing in my room. It was an overwhelming combination of anger, grief, frustration at my x's selfishness, his lack of concern about the children - but mostly it was the void in my life - the hurt he did to me as his wife - that I failed as a woman, I didn't know how I could go on. I didn't notice my boys come in my room (they were so afraid during that first year, that I would leave too - they were 3 and 5, and spent many nights in my bed, making sure a hand or a leg was touching me) and that is the look I saw in their faces - pure and utter terror.<P>That was my turning point. I had to be strong for them. I had to stop wallowing in sorrow. And that in turn, helped me. I still cried, but it wasn't "pitiful" anymore. And I never EVER let them see my cry again.<P>And, just like you, with that change in attitude, from negative destructive sorrow and bitterness about the past, to positive constructive "lets figure out life from here" my life improved. For a long time, I thought it may have included getting back with my husband, but I knew that it was up to him. <P>I reprioritized my entire life. It is a shame my husband didn't truly want the marriage back - I am quite different now - much surer of myself - I see that I was overwhelmed with all the responsibilities I had, and was killing myself. We could have had a great marriage now, if he had grown too.<P>I also understand what I want more. I really was confused about many things. Not anymore.<BR>I had my faith tested, and without a doubt I couldn't have survived without it. I don't wear my faith on my sleeve, but trying to describe the comfort I get from my faith to those who don't have it, is like trying to explain the love you have for your children to someone who has none. You don't get it, until you experience it. And then you don't know how you got along without it. <P>I figured out my career goals - basically that I don't have any. My satisifaction in life is through my personal life - and at the top of that list is being a wife and a mother. And that is NOT something to be ashamed of, or feel guilty about, as thirty years of marriage/man hating and callous stay-at-home mother trashing has tried to convince us all, men and women.<P>My job is merely the way I put food on the table. I don't want the high-powered career which demands a 60 hour workweek - so I made my worklife comfortable - I turned down a promotion, which meant more money but also more stress, and time away from home - and now I work from home most the time. I am backing out of management and stepping back to true design work - more creativity and less paperwork. I am finally happy, NOT pursuing the career I was supposed to want. I have more time at home, my kids have me.<P>And, I accept it isn't a sign of weakness that I want to be married. I don't view myself as being dependent on a husband, or competing with him, I feel complete when I am married. It is nothing to be ashamed of, or apologize for, or make me less of a person. I've proven I can take care of myself. I just figure, why would anyone want to be alone?<P>And I think there are many more good people out there than rotten ones. Especially, the older we get - everyone has baggage, but how we carry it, is what counts. <P>Three years for me to get to this point. And I too, would never have thought, when I was at my low points, that I could ever feel like this again, or look forward to the future. But I do! <P><BR>

Honey.west,<BR>"My job is merely the way I put food on the table. I don't want the high-powered career which demands a 60 hour workweek - so I made my worklife comfortable - I turned down a promotion, which meant more money but also more stress, and time away from home - and now I work from home most the time. I am backing out of management and stepping back to true design work - more creativity and less paperwork. I am finally happy, NOT pursuing the career I was supposed to want. I have more time at home, my kids have me."<P>I'm very happy that you have found this freedom. You can thank all of the women (and men) who came before you, that were either forced to work to support their children or had such a passion for their work, that no amount of "career-woman" bashing would stop them. Thirty years ago, it would have been exceedingly rare for a woman to be in your position. The sacrifices these women and some men made and obstacles they overcame, has made possible the kind of choices and freedom you enjoy now. I'm very happy to see it. <P>Actually, this is one of the reasons I chose to get my PhD. I too do not wish to have a 60 hr workweek in cubicle land or traveling all of the time. My goal is to be able to work at home, which having a PhD in my field would give me the freedom to do. Most of the work I do is at home now, and it's great. I don't have children, but am planning to adopt after I graduate. Don't know if a man is in my future or not, but I know that I'm not alone, regardless.

Student,<P>I was born thirty years too late or twenty years too soon.<P>When I had my children, what I wanted to do, was quit my job, and stay home and take care of my family. I thought there was something wrong with me - I listened to all the hype, and I went back to work. And I had a good "fulfilling" job - which is NOT the case of most working women. Believe me, ask any working mother of the trauma that first day dropping off a baby at daycare. Nobody forgets it. Those years of being overwhelmed with the responsibility of working, taking care of babies and toddlers, and taking care of a home, took its toll on me. And I didn't even see it. But what I see is a generation of women doing the same thing - killing themselves trying to do it all, and the big joke is 99% of them, don't want to do it all - they have been brainwashed into thinking that there is no personal satisfaction in raising a family, that they are somehow on the gravy train, and not contributing in the same way as if they were collecting a salary.<P>I made the choice to back off my job, just as I see most mothers do. It is too bad I didn't see it sooner, maybe my husband wouldn't have been sleeping with the nanny. A pretty ironic choice, I think, considering - why should I have thought that was any different than paying someone to watch my kids? <P>No Student, I don't thank N.O.W., I think they muddied the waters. They turned issues of equality, into issues of gender. With such catch phrases as marriage is good for a person and 1/2, and that marriage is just another form of prostitution, they have hurt women, not helped them. By trashing stay at home moms and revering the high powered career woman, they confused most of us.<P>What I feel lucky about, it that I finally understand it. I will make a better marriage. I have too many years in to just quit working - but I have certainly changed my attitude about it. When I marry, and I will, you can be assured, that this time, I hire out the cleaning, not the childraising, or the companionship to my husband. <P>My marriage didn't survive a test. I am very sorry for that. We should have come to this conclusion together. But instead, he expected me to be Superwoman too, and sought some fun elsewhere, when I was too blame tired.<P>I see too many women, and men, on this board with these same conflicts. I was very happy to find the Independent Women's Forum - it is another feminist organization which is certainly a better voice for me. Describe themselves as feminists who like men. Who believe men and women are equal, but different, that women are not victims of oppression, and that the family is the basis of society. I wish I knew about them ten years ago.<BR> <BR>I see three types of marriages that succeed: the tradition one, where the man is the breadwinner, the woman takes care of the home, and if she works, fits it around her family life. <P>the non-traditional, where the woman is the breadwinner, and the man takes care of the family, and HE works around that schedule.<P>Or, the dual-career, childless family, where each career is as important, and each spouse understands they don't follow the other, that if they have to move to separate cities they get together on weekends, and make that effort. <P>But in each scenario, the expectations must be agreed upon by both husband and wife. Unfortunately my husband and I had different expectations, and we didn't fall in any of the three. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by honey.west (edited September 24, 2000).]

Sue,<P>I'm sorry you feel you were in a need to "explain" yourself, but I can understand why. <P>I don't really think of anyone on this board as someone who quickly decided to divorce. We all struggled and many still struggle after its final.<P>Its a sad thing to see so many wonderful people go thru this. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.<P>You and I have similar views on so many things too and I can relate to feeling criticized so I have been taking a break here myself. When I get thru this next week, I'm sure I'll be posting again, in the meantime, continue doing that great job taking care of you and the kids and don't let anyone make you feel worse than you already have in the past over this situation.<P>I am explaining to my ex inlaws too right now and it just isn't right. <P>Prayers and hugs, Dana<BR>

honey.west,<P>If they don't have one excuse it's another. I worked part-time most of my adult life, 40-50 hours a week for two years while my H was in business for himself, and then was a SAHM for several years. He blamed me for not having gone back to work when the kids were "older" - our youngest was not quite 3 when the affair began. <P>I chose raising our family over progressing in my career, but apparently I should have worked and raised six kids simultaneously. What's really important to him is financial security.

Sue,<P>After reading some of your details, and how you worked with the Harley's, I can't imagine that you haven't earned your way out.<P>It is with that earning that you have been able to find your life getting better slowly, and to have said, that you weren't sure that marriage to your current BF is right, you did say that you were still working on your personal issues, which is always important.<P>That acknowledgement means you are serious about yourself and your life, and don't take life carefree and careless.<P>Your posts are direct and to the point, although your questions about life and relationships have meaning, in that you are thinking and not just reacting.<P>Sue, you are way ahead of alot of us here, so keep stopping by and let us know how you answer those personal questions that we all will eventually have.<P>take care<P>thl<P>

honey.west,<BR>I'm not telling you to thank N.O.W. I tend to think they are extreme as well. Until about 30 yrs. ago, women didn't have many choices though. Career options were mainly limited to nursing, teaching, or secretarial. The women who went to work then were either forced to work or really wanted to work and had to face some pretty heinous conditions. It has only been in the last 5 yrs that a pregnant woman might feel reasonably safe that she wouldn't/couldn't be fired or layed off. Or that she could have her baby and know that her job would not be given away. Family leave policies have been around less than 10 yrs. Sexual harrasment was a real problem in some places, and has only been dealt with in the past 10-15 yrs. My undergraduate and graduate school were men only 30-40 yrs ago, meaning that engineering training was virtually non-existent for women then. <P>On the other hand, there were also men who unexpectedly had to raise children on their own, because of death or abandonment by the mother. Those men had to figure out how to balance work and family as well, without a whole lot of help either. Work/family friendly policies fought for by early feminists have helped them too. <P>Anyway, I don't want to hog Sue's thread. I'm very happy that you have found the balance you've been looking for. That is what this feminism stuff was supposed to be all about. Having choices and freedom to decide what is best for us and our families. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited September 25, 2000).]