ftanaka & Jayhawk93, just wanted to "break out" of the previous post, it was getting pretty long....<P>ftanaka,<P>Another suggestion to you - Avoid at all costs you and her "physically" separating. If there is not threat of violence or abuse in your relationship, then try to stick it out together. Especially considering this other person that has gotten involved.<P>That is the one thing I wish my wife and I were able to do - stay together through all this.

-----------------<BR>"She soon realized that this was not my fault and like it or not, it was just a normal part of the divorce process."<BR>-----------------<P>Jayhawk 93,<P>GOOD! It is about time she comes to grips with the ugliness of what she has started. It is her doing. Not the marital problems you two were having, in that you share the blame. But in her persuing a divorce it IS her fault. As we have written previously, I think we both believe our wives need to "grow up" a little bit. To begin to realize that marriage is not just something that you "throw away" when it gets tough. It is a commitment - a vow.<P>Do not feel guilty...Do not feel guilty!! Don't apologize to her - don't send her a letter or email (I know those feelings are in you right now). You did nothing wrong. Nothing. Maybe this is what she needs - a "wakeup call" of sorts. That what she is doing is "for real".<P>I think that maybe our wives are so busy running away, they have not given themselves time to "hurt" or "look back". Worse yet, they most likely are not trying to work through any of their emotions - after all "its all our fault" right? I don't mean they aren't feeling anything, they have to have some sadness and maybe regret, but it is no where near the level of what we are going through (or else they would not be leaving).<P>Be there when she comes! BE STRONG, AS STRONG AS YOU CAN! Stronger than you ever have been in your life. Don't be mean, just be "matter of fact" like. If you feel you can, tell her you miss her, but this is HER decision and that you are honoring HER decision to give up.<P>I will say a prayer for you today.<P>Strangely enough, I envy you a little bit - Who knows where it will lead (if anywhere), but you have had a small breakthrough with your wife - SHE cried and you didn't. I can't tell you how much I wish I could hear my wife cry. Not because I want her to "hurt", but because it would just be nice to know she still cares.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B>Another suggestion to you - Avoid at all costs you and her "physically" separating. If there is not threat of violence or abuse in your relationship, then try to stick it out together. Especially considering this other person that has gotten involved.<P>That is the one thing I wish my wife and I were able to do - stay together through all this.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks. I'd like this to be true, but I think she wants to rush through a legal separation so that she can go back to OM and say she's getting out. OM doesn't want to break our marriage. She really has a lot of feelings for him and misses him a lot after he broke things off. At this stage, I don't think there's any stopping this from happening.

I actually feel great today. I don’t really know how, but my short conversation yesterday with her really put into perspective how immature and out of touch with reality she really is. She is not stupid by any means, but she is naïve when it comes to the “real world.”<P>Although I would like to think her tears were actually tears of sadness or remorse, I think they were driven more by fear. I think she is starting to realize that the real world is scary and that her decisions have a direct impact on her now. It’s funny how blowing $8k on credit didn’t bother her, but having to come up with another $50 or so in cash for her attorney was alarming. I think she’s scared. She’s in over her head and is starting to really feel it financially. She is on her own and realizes that if she doesn’t pay the bills, there isn’t anyone there to make it alright for her. Again, this is exactly what she wanted and what she needs.<P>My guilt from yesterday was driven more from my feelings of apathy toward her sadness. After I cooled off a little and looked at it from a different perspective I felt much better. I finally just took a step and removed myself from the situation. I no longer looked at this as me ‘grasping’ to save my marriage and I no longer viewed this other person as my wife. It may sound cold and way out there, but the woman I fell in love with and married is gone and as much as I would like to have her back, I don’t know where she is. This ‘other’ woman, the one who is now in the body of my wife, is cold, mistrusting, selfish and sad. This is not my wife.<P>I know that’s an easy thing to say and I may feel a whole lot different when I see her tonight. I’ll just have to wait and see. But tonight I will be strong. I’ll be strong because I’m not going to do a darn thing to indicate that I want her back or that I miss her. She knows that already as I have said it repeatedly for 3 months. No, tonight is for me. She is coming over to MY house, knocking on MY door and looking for some belongings from MY guestroom. I won’t be mean, I can’t. But I will be strong and will be very matter of fact. IF she asks for a hug and I pray that she does because I want one from her SOOOO badly, then I’ll oblige. But I am not asking for one. <P>I decided a few days back to let my beard grow in. I was getting ready to shave and thought, why am I shaving? There’s nobody here *itching that I look too scruffy and I’ve always wanted to see how I looked with a full beard. So I put down the razor and let it go. Now my face itches like a SOB, but that’s ok! A word of advice though, if you have facial hair, do not pop a bubble with your gum <P>I’ll keep you posted.<P>JH93 <BR>

Unfortunately I have a "summer beard" - some are here and some are there! <P>You need to be strong, you really do and I have confidence that you will. And I will be sure to say a prayer for you as well.<P>You are right in saying that the woman you are dealing with is, in fact, not your wife. I think the question for you (and for me) is: Who is this person in front of me? Is this who she really is and was only hiding herself from me? Or is this a temporary "personality" sent in to get her through this mess?<P>If it is the latter, than maybe, just maybe there is hope that the women we married may return.<P>Will we still be hear for them if and when they do return???? That is the $100,000 question.....<P>Good luck with tonight and I'll be sure to check tomorrow to get a "full" report !

I did it! I think tonight went extremely well as I made a plan and really stuck to it. My STBX came over to the house as planned, came up to the door and rang the bell I’m sure it was very hard for her to come back to her home and be forced to ring the bell, but as changing the locks is one of the few things I have had control over since this began, that bell was like music to my ears!<P>Our conversations tonight were very polite, very pleasant, but very matter of fact. I never once mentioned that I missed her or that I was wanting us to work on the marriage. In fact, I flat told her that I had finally accepted that our pending divorce was inevitable, that I wasn’t going to try and fight this any longer and that I was just looking forward to all of this legal stuff being over with already.<P>I wasn’t emotional or pleading with her tonight. I was not cold either, I was just acting as a sincere and caring friend and not a sad or scorned husband. Combine that with the fact that my house was ‘put together’ very well and that I was keeping it livable without her, I think that she got the feeling that I was moving on and no longer needed her as a part of my life. I still want her to be in it and I still treasure her friendship, but I am moving on. The action of me changing the locks only helped to reiterate that this was MY house and that she no longer had the option to come over whenever she wanted. She never had before w/o calling, but taking away her ability to access the dwelling literally took away her security blanket and I think that hurt her.<P>On several occasions tonight I actually caught her eyes watering up a bit, and at one point there were some actual tears. What a breakthrough. She actually displayed some emotion rather than just being defensive or withdrawn. This was the first time since all of this began where she was crying and my eyes were bone dry! Not once during or since her visit have I been close to tears. I decided that I would be in complete control of the situation and my emotions for once and I did just that. I was strong and it felt great. I am generally a strong person but have been such an emotional fool for the past few months I didn’t know if I really could muster the courage to be strong again when it came to her. <P>The hardest thing for me was to refrain from any physical contact with her. On a few occasions I felt the urge to embrace her in a hug, but I held back. At the end of the visit there was a very awkward silence as we both stood there looking at each other just waiting for the other to move forward, yet neither of us did. At one point I did take a hold of her hand when I asked her how she was doing with all of this, but it was brief and went no further. This was extremely hard for me as I have been longing to hug her for weeks, but I needed to prove to myself that I could be around her without the physical contact. As much as I wanted that hug, I knew that it would cause me more harm than good. I did give my dog a giant hug shortly after my STBX drove off, but it definitely was not the same.<P>I really wanted her to let lose with the tears and wanted to be there to comfort her, but I’m glad it didn’t get to that point, at least not tonight. I think she is at the point where the reality of her actions is starting to set in. I don’t believe that she has changed her mind, but I do feel that she is finally starting to lose control of the situation and since she can see that I am moving on with my life w/o her that reality is starting to hit. I know that times are tight right now for her financially. Between the stress and anxiety of being alone for the first time in her life coupled with the realization of her decisions, I think the tears of fear are starting to surface. I’m not positive, but I would be willing to bet that she ends up crying herself to sleep tonight. She is not a weak person, but I think she has kept her emotions in check up to this point and she is finally at a place where she just can’t keep them inside any longer. I’m sure she will be ok, but she just needs to let go at some point or she is going to snap. Anyone would under the circumstances.<P>We’ll see how our next visit goes, but I definitely view tonight as a success!<BR><P>------------------<BR>JH93

SoTired2000:<P>I have a question for you as I am intrigued in regard to a concept you brought up in a prior thread. You introduced your idea of 2 different types of men who would go after someone else’s wife. Your quote was “there are two types of men that are waiting - the devil in sheeps clothing and the "white knight" <P>Now for my question…..<P>I need to preface this by saying that my wife is still the woman I want to spend my life with, but since I see nothing to indicate that this is possible, I have started to move into the ‘shopping’ mode for new dating prospects. As I have mentioned before, there are a few women at my office that have peaked my interests. I want to focus on one specifically here. This one, who I will call “Beth”, is in her early 20’s, has a 2 year old daughter and is not married. However, Beth is still involved with the baby’s father. He is a few years older than her and apparently has some commitment issues regarding marriage. They have been dating a total of 3 years and don’t appear to be any closer to marriage today than they were 3 years ago. <P>She and I have become pretty good friends in a rather short amount of time. I like her and I am very attracted to her, but I have not pursued anything but her friendship. All of the time I have spent with her and all of the conversations we have had have taken place at the office. We haven’t seen or spoken to one another outside of the office except for once when a group of work people went out for a few beers. She showed up at the bar with her man. He seemed like a nice guy and from my impression of him, I think he and I are somewhat similar in a few ways. Anyway, I do not want to get in the middle of their relationship, especially because of their daughter. I am NOT a home wrecker. In fact, I even asked her if our friendship was in any way going to cause problems between the two of them. I stated that I would understand if it was and could respect that. She said that it would not affect their relationship so we have kept our friendship going.<P>She has since moved to another company so we no longer have any visual contact with one another. However, we have spoken by phone a few times during work hours, but have not made any plans to see one another. <P>Now which man in your scenario am I, the devil in sheeps clothing or the white knight? Since they are not married, she is not another man’s wife, but she is in a committed relationship and they have a child. I have picked up on some definite issues regarding their relationship which would be easy for me to tear apart, but I haven’t. In fact, I have gone the opposite way and tried to help her see things from the male perspective. Even though I don’t agree with some of his views or actions, I have not tried to belittle him in any way. I can see myself falling into both scenarios to a point, but since I am aware that I can become a catalyst in their relationship and am trying to be cautious about it, does that exclude me from being scum?<P>I want their relationship to work and would like to see them having a happy marriage, but mainly for the sake of their child. The truth is, once my divorce is final and I decide to start dating, Beth is the one I would go after, IF she was available. I am attracted to her in many ways, but I realize that a lot of these attractions are due to the similarities of my wife that I see in her. I could see myself getting attached to this woman and her child very quickly and I don’t know if that would be a very healthy thing for me, especially at this point in my life. If the child wasn’t an issue, then I would probably end up being the white knight down the road. I just can’t understand her boyfriend. It’s been 3 years, they have a child, she has left her home state and family to follow him here, yet he isn’t willing to make a commitment to her. What the *ell is he waiting for? I would love to call him out and say, “you know what pal, it’s time to either *hit or get off the pot!” I would never do that, but it’s time already that she gets a commitment from this guy. If he isn’t going to commit to her and his family obligation, then he needs to back away. Not from being a father to his baby girl, but from being just a boyfriend to her mother. It’s a dangerous situation I know, and it does scare me.<P>What are your thoughts?<P><BR>------------------<BR>JH93<p>[This message has been edited by Jayhawk 93 (edited September 29, 2000).]

Jayhawk93,<P>Tough one...<P>First always remember that you are only hearing "one side" of the story - "hers". There may be reasons why this man has not committed to her, you never know.<P>I pray that your wife sees the errors in her ways and that she somehow makes a turn-around. <P>Now with that said, "how do you proceed after your divorce with this new woman?" I would be as upfront about it as you can. One date or two dates I don't think would be a problem, but if you see it going further than that, you need to tell her to tell this other man what is going on. Think of it this way: If she doesn't tell this guy what is going on with you two, and she leaves him for you, what is to prevent her from doing the same to you with someone else down the road?<P>If she did it before, then chances are she may do it again. If she does not want to tell this other guy about you two, I think that speaks of her character and you may just want to watch out.<P>Does that make any sense?<P><BR>A little off the subject, I had a revelation last night... Over the past few days we have been talking about dating and moving-on. I began to think about it a lot, but then I remembered back before I met my wife. At that point in my life, I was not looking for anyone. I was having the time of my life just being with friends and doing different things, going places, meeting people, etc...<P>[Warning religious stuff here ]<BR>What if God has intended us to use this point in our lives to "work on us"? Not to look for someone new, not to start dating, but just to be "on our own" right now? So that if/when we do enter into a new relationship (or rebuild our marriage) we are strong enough and independent enough to be successful in that endeavor. I started to really think about that.... If I could just focus on being happy and content with myself, enjoying everyday to the best of my ability, then keeping some hope for my marriage would not be that difficult. I wouldn't be concerned about meeting someone new, or about my wife coming back. Sure there would be times where the lonliness would come, but those are the times I would just get up and go do something... It would also take the stress out of "having to find someone"...<P>You have a job, right? So you have some disposable income to "throw" away, maybe? A Seinfeld episode had George being fired from his job (I think he was fired?) Anyway, somehow he was going to have the whole summer where he would not have to work. He called it the "Summer of George"! What if we call this time of our lives the "fall, winter and spring of (insert name here)".<P>I woke up today feeling much better about things.<P>How did last night go? Did she come over?

First, last night was great. Look back at my entry prior to my question about your white night theory. I think you must have skipped past it last time.<P>Now, in regard to the new woman issue. I know that I have only been hearing her side of their story, but it still makes me wonder. There are always 3 sides to every relationship….his side, her side, and the truth. Sometimes they are the all very similar while others are as different as night and day. From my first impression of him, I thought and still do think that he is a good, responsible person and probably a very good father. He was very attentive to his baby and took care of her while ‘Beth’ visited with her friends. Other women in our group had commented how great of a guy he was for doing that. However, there were a few other things that I noticed as well that I didn’t like, but nobody is perfect. I just can’t help feeling for this woman. She has left behind everything to be here with him for the sake of their baby, yet there is no commitment. She has told me on a few occasions that if it wasn’t for their daughter, she would have left long ago. I can’t dispute that. She has been very understanding and sympathetic for my situation. She has never met my STBX, but has commented on how great of a person she must be for me to be hurting so much over her loss. Call it intuition, but something tells me that Beth is waiting for me to get further along in my grieving process before she will allow anything further to develop. I agree with your idea of speaking directly to him if something does start to develop between us. As a reasonable man myself, I think it would be a shock to have OM come to me directly, but you can’t do anything but respect that. And being the person I am, if he asked me to back off, I would.<P>Your revelation last night is interesting. I also met my wife while I wasn’t looking for anyone either. We were actually fixed up by a very ‘sneaky’ person, my mother of all people, and it was my wife who ended up pursuing me in the beginning. <P>I am employed and do have some discretionary income, although it’s hard to see it right now, but that’s another topic. I have started trying to figure out what it is in life that makes me happy and what kind of activities I can find some pleasure in. I have lived in this same state my entire life and have never really had the ability to move away to see more of the country. I have traveled and have always liked going to Colorado when I was younger. Something about the mountains and the rivers has always had an appealing draw from me. My best friend from high school on recently was transferred to Colorado of all places! I have gone out to visit him once already and I just fell in love with that state. If you are an outdoors type of person there is always something to do out there. From camping to kayaking, mountain biking to hiking, skiing to snowboarding, Colorado has it all. People spend thousands of dollars to do what we did on a weekend whim because we felt like it. By chance, I was turned onto a job headhunter just a few days ago. Guess where she is? Yep, Colorado! <P>There are signs everywhere. Maybe I am just looking for the ones that are pointing in the direction I want to go, but the signs are there. The only thing stopping me from packing up and moving out is my own fears. My whole family is here. My friends are here, and my security is here. But that’s the thing….even I move away, all of that will still be here. Sure I won’t just be able to run over to see my mom on a moment’s notice, but she’ll still be there. I mentioned before that I have been in the caretaker role for the last 15 years of my life with my family, but now my mom has a fiancé and my sister is married. They still need me, but not like they did before. Maybe this is the plan that God has been working on for me? I won’t know unless I give it a try, but maybe that’s what I need to do. Maybe God has put these people into my family’s lives and taken my wife away from me so that I too will be forced to become an independent person myself? And maybe that’s why my friend was moved out to Colorado so I won’t be completely alone when I get there? Man, here come the tears again! What a feeling. And this time they aren’t for my wife, they are just for me.<P>I’ll be in Colorado again over thanksgiving so I’ll scout things out a little more seriously than I did last time. <P>Your thoughts always get me thinking. It’s too bad we're both men my friend, otherwise I would say that you were a good dating prospect <P>Take care.<P><BR>------------------<BR>JH93<P>[This message has been edited by Jayhawk 93 (edited September 29, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Jayhawk 93 (edited September 29, 2000).]

Hey watch it, I am not that mad at women!! <P>Seriously though, I just did read your post and you were right, I skipped right over it before. That's great!!!! You could not have asked for a better meeting.<P>Colorado seems like it is a hot topic lately. You are not going to believe this, but I may be offered a job that will entail me commuting back and forth to Colorado for about a year. After that it is up in the air on whether or not I would have to stay out there. Never been out there, but have always been intrigued by that area (even looked into spending our honeymoon in Jackson Hole, but it was a little too expensive). Wouldn't that be something if we both end up out there - maybe we could hit the town looking for new woman together <P>But back to our current reality. With this woman - tread slowly. You have no reason to rush into it. I think we are both still "unstable" and I think we should look at this time to work on ourselves, without anyone else in our lives. It can't be that bad. We both have family and friends (and a dog!).<P>And maybe, just maybe last night may turn out to be "a new beginning" with your wife. From a previous post I read that you are not extremely involved with religion, so bear with me if this sounds "preachy", but if you believe in God, you know that He has done some absolutely amazing things. But He is a father to us all and as any good father, He knows what we need and when. If He knows we truly want something bad enough and if He believes that it is in our best interest to have it, He will break down and allow us to have it.<P>I read a short little story that told about the "Delayed Blessing's Office". Think of it like the post office. Well at the "Delayed Blessings Office" there sits hundreds of thousands of prayers to God asking for this and that. In the midst of all that mess it takes a while for Him to get to all those prayers. But, everytime someone asks/prays for something another "Blessing Request" is made. The more times you ask, the more requests are added to the pile, the better chance that God will get to your request sooner rather than later. <P>It is a cute way to look at a more philosophical statement right out of the bible "seek and you shall find, ask and it will be given to you, knock and it shall be opened to you". Remember that as humans we so often lose track that we are living on His time not ours. What may seem like days/months/years to us may in fact be minutes to Him.<P>OK, that is our bible lesson for the day...Now everyone go home and say 10 Our Fathers!!<P>Have a great weekend and I will check back in on Monday!<P>God Bless.<P>BTW: Per our agreement, I have something I want you to read. Check it out under the topic "question about meds (Paxil)... " and post your thoughts there.<P>And also, this screen name thing gets annoying sometimes, my name is Mike!

Hey Guys:<P>I'm getting back in on this because my name is on this thread! Just kidding.<P>Really, I'm so glad that you two have found each other and can relate so well. Maybe you two should get married. Just kidding again.<P>I'm leaving again,<P>Jennifer

Jennifer,<P>You are always welcome in our posts, even if your name is not in the subject line <P>Besides, I think we have you to thank for bringing us together....in a manly sense that is <BR><P>------------------<BR>JH93

hey jayhawk,<P>easy on the other man's wife thall shall not covet thy neighbors wife,, it will only bring you hardship my friend. just think if he was you, again bringing up "do unto others as you would have done to you" there really are alot of other prospects out there my friend, really this attraction will only lead to problems , big ones, and really if she does give you the time of day, what would she do to you later on the down the line if things get rocky>???? <P>if she demonstrates this type of attitude what if you go on and marry her up , later on what would happen?<P>think about it!<P>plus what about this other guys feelings?<P>you could destroy your fellow man<P>you are better than that and are moving along so well don't eat the forbidden apple my friend.<BR>

RTN2:<P> The woman that I mentioned in my prior post is NOT married, she is however involved with someone. Believe me, I know this situation has red flags all over it and really scares the *ell out of me. More than likely, I will never pursue anything with her. Yes the attraction is there, but so are a lot of other issues that really scare me. I can see the potential for a lot of heartache with that one and that is not a good thing. More than anything, I think it’s just the prospect of this beautiful woman, almost as beautiful as my wife, is actually showing some interest in me. With all of the feelings and emotions I have been dealing with, the overwhelming feeling of rejection put upon me by my wife has been horrible. It’s just nice to feel wanted, especially during something like this. Even though ABSOLUTELY nothing aside from friendly conversation has happened, it has helped to boost my confidence and has helped me realize that there are other women out there who will want me besides my wife.<P>Besides, the more I think about it, she is probably too young. Many of the issues which my wife is currently dealing with as a result of marrying too young will be the same issues this woman will be facing in a few years, plus she has the added pressure of being a single mother. Not really what I need in my life right now. The immaturity I mean. I think the fact that I have thought about this in so many ways just goes to show that I am not the type of person who would go out intentionally to be the OM. <BR><P>------------------<BR>JH93

Mike,<P>I seriously started thinking about your concept of “the summer of……” and began thinking about some of my “happier” moments in life. When it comes down to it, when I was living in the fantasy world of college, I always had fun. I was rarely depressed and rarely gave a flying fu** as to what anyone else thought about what I was or was not doing. I was a ‘college man’ and I had the world by the short hairs <P>I thought back to what I used to do in college that was enjoyable for me. I used to spend a lot of time in bars with my friends shooting pool, playing darts, drinking and just BS’ing with my friends. Well Friday night I went out with some friends to one of the neighborhood bars to do just that. Although I wasn’t planning on drinking very much and I really didn’t, I still had a blast throwing the darts and just BS’ing with them. A few of us ending up playing darts with a few women from one of the nearby tables! They were a little older than us, but our intent was not to pick ‘em up, we were just having fun. And would you believe it, by the end of the evening I was buddy buddy with one of these women and we exchanged some mutual flirtatious moments. Now nothing happened as it was just playful, but I was just up there to have fun and I connected with someone. We even talked a little about our respective situations as she walked out of her marriage after 26 years. <P>I found it humorous as your post from earlier that day said the following:<P>[QUOTE]<BR>A little off the subject, I had a revelation last night... Over the past few days we have been talking about dating and moving-on. I began to think about it a lot, but then I remembered back before I met my wife. At that point in my life, I was not looking for anyone. I was having the time of my life just being with friends and doing different things, going places, meeting people, etc...<P><BR>I also realized something that night, I am really attracted to older women. Not senior citizens mind you, but women in their 40's. There is just something about them. I don’t know if it is the maturity factor, their wisdom or the fact that some just aren’t there to impress you, but I am finding myself very attracted to them. In the past few weeks I have met one woman that is 39 and another that is in her mid 40’s, both of which I would date in a heartbeat if the opportunity presented itself. The purpose of these dates would not be to find a new wife, they would just be for fun. I don’t think that’s too much to ask. I wonder how divorced “40 something women” feel about dating divorced, 30 year old men? If any of you out there have an answer for this, please don’t hesitate to jump in <P>Anyway, it just made me realize that there is a whole world out there that is going by and I need to take a good hard look at what I want for myself in this life. Maybe moving out to Colorado is the thing to do? If that does work out, there are already two of my friends up there that I will hook up with and we’ll rent a house. Maybe if your career opportunity works out and you end up traveling to Colorado for a year or so we can have a guest room for you! Granted that’s a lot of ‘what-ifs’ but the idea of hitting the town together to find some women is a definite certainty. Especially in Boulder. The town is great and the beautiful women are plentiful! Maybe God’s plan isn’t so bad after all!<P>Just wanted to throw something else out here that has helped me recently. I am not a vain person in any way, but I purchased a $5 anti-fog mirror from Target about a week ago which sticks to the wall of the shower. I purchased it so that I could shave while in the shower and be able to see what I was doing so that I didn’t just cut the crap out of my face! Of course this was when I was still shaving, now I am just shaping the virtual forest that is slowly appearing on my face But I digress…..I have found that I stare at my face constantly while in the shower and have started using this time as almost a type of meditation. I am so relaxed and virtually stress-free with the water coming over me that I am really able to open my mind and think of things clearly. I usually end up fixating on my eyes and have realized how expressive and intense they can be. I had no idea that I could change my entire facial expression with my eyebrows alone. I have also come to trust this person looking back at me every morning and it helps me to realize that everything is going to work out, one way or another. This practice may seem weird, but it’s helping me <P>Don't knock it 'til you try it.<P>By the way, it’s nice to meet you, Mike. My name is Shawn.<p>[This message has been edited by Jayhawk 93 (edited October 01, 2000).]

Jayhawk, <P>Well, I read an invitation in there to join in - believe me, I've been dying too, with your conversations about Beth. We 40+ women are very opinionated! But first, I think I am one of the 40 something women you are talking about. I understand the appeal. We are still very attractive, I know I'm not at my physical peak, but still pretty darn close to the top. But the mental attitude - there is something to be said for experience. We know better now about everything, understand our needs better, and yes, its true - we understand our bodies better... All together, there is a burgeoning confidence that is very alluring. While I am flattered by the attention I get from younger men, see some "crushes," and enjoy their company in safe settings, I wouldn't go out with them. For both of our benefits - for me, because I am past the "fun" stage of dating. I had that, I enjoyed it immensely when it was my turn, but now I'm in a different phase and I have my children to think about. For you, it wouldn't be fair, because you are at a phase when you should be seeing unencumbered women with whom you may share a future, and possibly start a family. The older I get, the more I see that a person needs a partner about the same age, for me, about a seven year span is it - either way is ok - to truly have an equal relationship. A teacher/student relationship is bound to fail eventually.<P>Now about Beth - when I heard of her situation, I just started sputtering with frustration about that "great guy" she is seeing. Now, if having a baby isn't reason enough to get married, what is? My goodness. When you have a child, you will understand the power he has over her. That jerk has her on a string. What an ultimate expression of selfishness - that his "freedom" is more important than hos own baby's future. It is NOT the same when you aren't married. I can't imagine a deeper insult - I like you enough to have sex with you, and to create a life, but not enough to say I want the baby or you in my future forever. She picked the wrong guy to have a baby with. The fact that she is still with him, to me, says alot FOR her. She is sacrificing herself, for her baby. I bet she sees what a mistake she made with him, but for the sake of keeping the father in the baby's life at all, she takes what she can get. She is not in a position to dictate terms. I would hope that she has a generous child support settlement, but why do I guess she doesn't? <P>What a big decision for you - you don't have children right now - you could marry someone without children, start your family, and not have any of the problems you see on this board with stepfamilies. Or, you could get involved with Beth, and be a very good stepfather, but understand, you will have that jerk in your life forever. Maybe even undermining you. I would expect that a man with an ego that big, and with as little regard for that baby's future as he has, is going to make your life miserable at times.<P>If you are up for taking on some challenges, I think Beth sounds like a good prospect. But remember, as a mother, she has different priorities now - she has upped the stakes - I doubt she wants to date for fun - she will be looking for a man who will marry her, and be a good stepfather. Not just fun dating. She certainly doesn't need to be hurt again.<P>It is a big deal to date her.<BR>

Honey.West,<P>Beware! I have the tendency to write books….. <P>Thank your for your “experienced” opinion here and you are always welcome to join into any of my posts, regardless of an invitation. That’s the whole point to posting on a BB that is open to the general public. We are all here to share experiences and to share opinions. If I wasn’t interested in other’s viewpoints, I would not be here. I am sure that you probably are one of those 40+ that men would fine attractive, whether at your physical peak or not. I really think the attraction for me has to be the experience and the confidence that has emanated from these 40+ women. When I have been talking to them, I could really feel that they were listening to what I was saying and that they understood my experience. The teacher/student relationship for me would be related to real world experiences and not just those that revolve around the bedroom. Sure I felt a physical attraction to both of these women who were still close to their physical prime, especially considering that each one has had 3 kids, but unlike the draw with younger women, my first attraction to them was not physical.<P>Call me shallow and refer to me as a typical male chauvinist pig, but whenever I meet a woman around my own age, the first thing I look for is a physical attraction. If it’s not there for me almost immediately, then I know that I wouldn’t be interesting in dating this woman. I can be friendly and all, but I would never attempt to take it to the next level. But it’s completely different with the 40+ women I have met. I haven’t started talking to them because I was physically attracted to them. I started talking to them because I felt more comfortable being around them. I found that I wasn’t trying to impress them and I didn’t have any ulterior motives. I was just being myself. I was confident and I liked it. After talking with them for a while something would start to develop. Maybe it was just a connection more than an attraction, but there was definitely something. And for both women, while they appeared to be in fine physical condition, it was their eyes that I spent the majority of my time looking at. <P>Now being the relatively attractive and intelligent man that I am, I should be able to have the same confidence when I meet women closer to my own age, but for some reason I don’t. I think it may be that’s because if I have ulterior motives in these cases then I’m not really being myself, therefore I am not confident and not comfortable. It’s the only thing that really makes sense to me anyway. And the fact that I can talk to a 40+ woman that I am not immediately physically attracted to, yet will still become interested in them after a short while should tell me that I could do the same with a 25-35 year old woman as well. I understand the issues you brought up about dating a 40+ woman not being fair to me or to her, but I think it depends each persons motive. For me, I would just be looking for some companionship without the fear of a long term relationship. My assumption would be that any 40+ woman willing to start a relationship with a 30 year old man would be for the same reason. But then again, what are assumptions really worth?<P>Now back to the topic of Beth. I agree with you that this ‘great guy’ is displaying his true colors by the things he is not saying. There isn’t a deeper insult in my opinion, but it’s not my relationship. I would like to talk with her in depth about this, but I am hesitant. As I mentioned before, my motives with her could be jeopardizing to their future and the future of their baby. It is not my place to pull the wool out of her eyes and I think when it comes down to it, she knows what’s really going on her. She’s smart enough to see that, she just may not be willing to admit it. I mentioned a book to her that I had read recently entitled, “How to break your addiction to a person,” which is mainly directed at learning how to walk away from a relationship that is know is not right. She sounded very interested when I told her about the book, but she shied away when I offered to let her borrow it. She said that the thought of that book scared her. Obviously she sees that her relationship is going nowhere and she is basically in a state of limbo, yet she continues to let him remain in control of the situation because of their child. To answer your question about child support, there currently is no court order requiring such a thing. She told me that he is very generous when it comes to the support and welfare of his daughter and he actually gives more now than what the court would require if there was an agreement. Beth was not planning on having a child with this man. She made a mistake and didn’t make sure she was protected while having sex with this guy. She took responsibility and opted to keep her child and is doing the best she can to raise her little girl in a family environment. <P>I know that dating her would be a big deal and that she would not be wanting to date for fun since she basically already has that. But that is also what really scares me. How would I know that she was interested in dating me for me and not just because she can see me as a good stepfather, a good provider and a genuinely good man to have in her life? And at the same time, how could I possibly give offer her my advice and opinions while having a clear conscience. I think if anything with her moves forward that I would have to be completely honest with her from the start. I would have to tell her that I really enjoyed her friendship, but that I was also attracted to her and would be interested in dating. She would have to know that I would be completely capable of keeping our friendship strictly on the friendship level, but she would have to know where I was coming from if she was going to follow any of my advice. I wouldn’t want to be thought of as the devil in sheep’s clothing here.<P>My life parallels that of my father to a point. My mother was a divorced, 22 year old single mother when she met my dad. The biological father of my sister was still a part of their lives and a possible catalyst to my folks relationship. My dad saw what was staring him in the face and he made the decisions he needed to make to be happy. His first act after marrying my mother was to legally adopt her daughter who was 4 years old at the time. Two years later I came along.<P>Unfortunately, my father passed away one week after my 14th birthday. I only knew this man as my father and never had the opportunity to get to know him on a friendship level. Out of everything that has happened in my life, I regret the fact that I never got to really know who my father was. I know that he was a great man and was loved by many people. At his funeral, there were so many people that the funeral home had to open all of the overflow rooms and had to turn on the video feed to the lobby televisions. This funeral was SRO and the processional to the cemetery following took approximately 30 minutes for all cars to file into the cemetery. I guess a lot can be said about the type of person he was based on the staggering number of people who showed up to pay him their last respects.<P>------------------<BR>JH93<p>[This message has been edited by Jayhawk 93 (edited October 01, 2000).]

LOL...I have to control myself from writing in volumes. <P>You are a very good man, Mr. Jayhawk (she says in her best Tallulah Bankhead voice). <BR>

Oh, and Jayhawk, I never thought she got pregnant on purpose - just the mistake of the guy she was with. Maybe you can anomymously send her that book "the ten stupid things women do to mess up their lives." Should be required reading in high school.<P>And as far as being concerned that she sees you as a good stepfather, and father, Jayhawk, that isn't a bad thing. One of the ways to tell when a woman has grown up, is by the traits in a man she finds attractive. The mature woman wants a stable, responsible, kind man. Just as easy to fall in love with a good guy (for a smart woman) than the exciting bad guy that so many women seek in their youth. Those are the traits that foster a deep and lasting love. <BR> <BR>Your father is a good example. He must have been a wonderful man.

-------------------------<BR>"I thought back to what I used to do in college that was enjoyable for me. I used to spend a lot of time in bars with my friends shooting pool, playing darts, drinking and just BS’ing with my friends. Well Friday night I went out with some friends to one of the neighborhood bars to do just that. Although I wasn’t planning on drinking very much and I really didn’t, I still had a blast throwing the darts and just BS’ing with them. A few of us ending up playing darts with a few women from one of the nearby tables! They were a little older than us, but our intent was not to pick ‘em up, we were just having fun. And would you believe it, by the end of the evening I was buddy buddy with one of these women and we exchanged some mutual flirtatious moments."<BR>-------------------------------------------<P>I have had several similar situations over the past few months. When you decide to go out with friends, just to "have fun", it is so amazing that is what happens - you "have fun". I think it is important for everyone here at MB to remember that friends and family are more than just people we turn to when we feel sad and upset. We need to spend the happy times with them as well. It is good for all of us and our friends.<P>With Beth, my advice? Stay the course. Just keep being friends with her. There have been a few girls that have shown me attention as well over the past few months. At first it is great! I really think I am beginning to like them, then I realize that they are not my "type" at all. It was more the "them liking me" that attracted me to them??? If that makes sense? I mean that it is easy for us right now to get caught up with the first person that pays attention to us. I think that is dangerous both to us and to the new person.<P>Focus on your friends and on you! Remember it is the "Winter of Shawn"!<P>Did not send the email I wrote to W - see post in other thread....<P>