z<p>[This message has been edited by CarlLaFong (edited 02-12-99).]

Carl - <p>Separation is a real tough one, and the before last resort I think.<p>I am going through it right now... and all I wish was that my H was here so that I could at least see how changes in our relationship work. It is very difficult at a distance.<p>Consider reading "Divorce Busters" by Winer-Davis... it will change the way you see your relationship and yourself.<p>J

Hey Carl --<p>Am reading HNHN over and over, as well as a book on ending relationships by Daphne Kingma. Funny how I feel hopeful one minute and completely at peace with divorce at another!!<p>The Kingma book raised some interesting points with me....this one in particular.<p> In general, counseling comes at a point of being too late. It is often a graceful exit to a marriage, so that people can say "we did all we could". We need counseling on our marital skills prior to any problems....not as a last resort. Kingma says that the vast majority of her clients are in the last "throes of a dying relationship".... Not very optimistic, huh? And sometimes I really really really believe her.<p>I feel like 95% of our fights are re-runs of the same old show. She says that is a major indicator that it really is over, because it shows that neither spouse really does want to change but continuously drags up old grievances. And we fight daily over the same things. So maybe we are doomed.......<p>Sometimes I think separation sounds so nice...... quiet, peaceful, no arguments or tension. I know all of the awful, heart-wrenching parts too, but just the immediate loss of that overwhelming tension would be such a relief.<p>Maria<br>

Maria,<p>What you read is your business, and I'm sure there is truth to what people like Kingma say. But I would caution you about those sort of books if you have any desire to save your relationship at all.<br>Like others my marital problems have caused me to go out and buy books. I was shocked to see how many books there are that encourage a divorce, even though the devastating effects are well known.<br>I'm not saying that divorce is never needed. There should be books out there for those who need that sort of info. But I've looked at a number of those books and I see too many authors making a buck off other people's bad situations.<br>In the shallow and materialistic society we live in you know there are people who would sell lemonade while someone threatens to jump off a building. There are too many "counselors" who are nothing more than cheap lemonade sellers. <br>My sister stayed in a shelter in Florida this past summer when she left her husband for a while. She was required to attend counseling sessions. She said the women that "counseled" them actually made her feel worse than she already did, and did everything they could to try and convince her that her marriage was best dissolved. She left there just to get her head back together.<br>Your decision is yours but there are a lot more people out here than is generally recognized that have a vested interest in the failure of relationships. These [censored] would be selling guns and whiskey to Indians if this was the year 1860.

You are right on a lot of repects, Bruce. <p>I got interested in Daphne Rose Kinga at Barnes and Nobel when I picked up a book of hers "True Love: How to make your relationship sweeter, deeper, and more passionate." A little book, with one topic per two pages. Lots of good ideas and insights.<p>Picked up her other book I mentioned "Coming Apart: Why Relationships End and How To Live Through The Ending Of Yours." on a bad day. Really felt that it was all over and what was the point of all of this pain? Wanted some advice on living through all of the crap. Had a really good coda with some things to look at to see if your relationshhip really is ending or if it is just a rocky time.<p>Anyway, she is actually very optimistic about some things and pragmatic on others and plain pessimistic on some. I hope that I am smart enough to be able to recognize that. I thik her main point in both is that people are not taught how to be loving -- and that it is an acquired skill.<p>Bought both books the same day! How is that for a juxtaposition of feelings!!!<p>What would we do without Barnes & Noble?<p>[This message has been edited by Maria (edited 12-07-98).]

z<p>[This message has been edited by CarlLaFong (edited 02-12-99).]