I am getting so tired of telling people that my H has been out of work for 5 months, only to have them ask if he is actually looking. I think he is looking, but I do not understand why is not finding anything, in a market that has never been better. His lawyer and my lawyer seem to be the only people who are not suspicious. Even if he finds a job, they are both convinced that it will pay less than his previous two jobs, maybe 20K less. Why is this acceptable? It makes no sense whatsoever. He seems annoyed that he hasn't found another job, but my old H would have been terribly, terribly worried in this situation. Why shouldn't he have to take a second job if necessary to make up the difference? Why do I have to pay for daycare when he is not working? Why do I have to leave my kids, including the preschooler who has special needs and could really benefit from one-on-one attention, and he only has to pay child support based on unemployment. Once his unemployment runs out, child support will drop to almost nothing. <P>Why does the betrayer get everything he wants. He gets to trade his wife in on a richer model, he can afford to go golfing or whatever, while I can't afford to go anywhere or do anything with the kids because I can't even afford the gas. If I pay the mortgage and buy food, there is nothing left over, even to pay the other bills. He gets to see the kids whenever he wants, but only when it is convenient for him. It doesn't adversely affect his relationship with the younger kids, at least from his perspective, and he blames the lack of relationship with his older ones on them. Nothing is his fault - if it isn't my fault, it is the kids' fault. There is no downside to being a betrayer. None whatsoever. It has been 19 months and it is only getting worse. All that cr** about affairs ending after reality hits is just that. We have to go to court this week, and they probably won't even make him support the two oldest kids, because the courts care about whether the NCP has enough to live on, but it matters not at all whether the children do. <P>We gave up a house I loved, in a town where I had an extensive support system, and I gave up a career that actually would pay enough to support the kids, so he could go into business for himself. I was willing to do that because I loved him. Never once did he thank me, or show any appreciation. Instead he acted as if I was stupid to have had any misgivings about it. Even after we came back, it was at least a year before I found out that he regreted it, and then, only because he told someone else in my presence. <P>People here talk about their spouses criticizing them and then apologizing. I don't recall him apologizing about anything more significant than accidentally breaking something in 25 years. Even the one time he brought me flowers after an argument, he didn't say a word. Not a single word. <P>I always thought he had difficulty expressing emotion, but maybe he doesn't really have any most of the time. I can remember a only a handful of times he expressed any emotion other than anger.

Nellie1,<BR>I know exactly what you mean. My ex's sister was divorced from a man who married his affair partner. They are still married as far as I know. My sister-in-law is still single, still raising her son on her own. Her ex? He has profited immensely from the business she helped him create and is now lavishing the rewards on his trophy wife, and jetting his son across the country to attend the Superbowl and other great "weekend" parent activities. <P>She is lucky, in that her parents are letting her live in their house in New England, rent free. So at least she doesn't have to worry about a roof over her head. <P>My sister's ex did the same thing. Four years later, they are still married. My sister is still single and suffering from his and his wife's continued attempts to alienate her daughter. It is not that hard to do with a 6 yr old who is, unfortunately, starting to equate "love" with how much stuff her father buys her. <P>If it makes you feel better, I was the betrayer, and I'm not better off. My ex is making more than triple the salary he was making when he first married me (thanks to the Master's I helped support him to get and my efforts to support his career). Some could say that it is my own fault, however, I think he was itching to trade up long before my one-night stand. The day after I told him, he took off his ring, and in less than a month, he was jetting off on a week long vacation with a female "friend". Hmm. Pretty coincidental that she was in the wings? I think not. He had no incentive to return the favor (i.e. support my career or school), especially when he could very easily find other women who would be more than happy to kiss the ground he walked on in return for a stable income provider. I kissed the ground he walked on for years, and didn't get a whole lot of appreciation either. He did thank me though. That I appreciated, however, it was very difficult for him to follow through on anything more concrete than that. Better than nothing, I suppose, but not a sign of any deep commitment. Kinda felt like a dog who gets a pat on the head every night. I've come to realize that I was nothing more to my ex than a nice pet. Someone he could buy things for, take on trips, and who was fun to keep around as long as it didn't inconvenience him too much. <BR>Maybe I shouldn't complain. That was probably more than alot of people get, still, ya gotta wonder what marriage is all about. I still think it is about having a partnership where both people are encouraged to grow to their fullest potential. Not just a fun-time companion (although that is important too).

Nellie,<P>I don't understand it either, nor do I understand why your attorney isn't doing more. I think you were one of the first people I posted a response to months ago, when I read your situation - it reminded my so much of one of the women in my support group. My advice, remains the same - go for the jugular. Yes, he should have to take two crappy jobs, if that is all he can get, to make his support payments. That is his responsibility and I don't understand why he is able to walk away. <P>It doesn't sound like your attorney is doing a very good job. <P>I am shocked it doesn't make a difference in your state, that your husband is living with someone - not from the morality standpoint, but the financial one. He doesn't have the expenses. It is a horrible situation for you. <P>And Nellie, not that it is right, but you may have to rely on your older children now, since your husband is being such a stinker - it may be impossible for them to continue school right now - they may have to come home and work, and go to school part-time, to help hold the family together. I know that will just make them angrier with your ex, but my guess is they are very good children, who are becoming darn fine adults, because of you. I know I would have done that for my mother, if she were in that situation. My guess is that they have offered, but you haven't wanted to disrupt their lives anymore than it already has been. <BR> <BR>Its just mindboggling that this situation is allowed to go on. You have one of the worst fiasco divorces I have ever heard about. <P>Nellie, I think everybody here is worried about you. This has got to be just eating you up inside. It isn't healthy.<P>I know from previous posts that you are an atheist, but I'm going to be praying for you anyway (hey it can't hurt, right?) to have the strength to get through this horrible situation. Just take stock of what you have, and what your options are, since HE is being such an irresponsible oaf - mental illness, or not. Take care.

I can honestly relate to what you are saying. My ex sees his kids about 2 hours a month. Yes that's right 2 "hours" a month. He can come and go at the drop a hat, have peace and relaxation whenever he needs it. Although he and the other woman no longer see each other he still doesn't seem too interested in his kids. Last October I had a tree fall on my house. It did major damage to it. I gave him the rest of the money to finish the work because he said he would get it done faster and alot better. Well,9 months and $3000 later, it still hasn't been finished. I am stuck with the mortgage and a brand new car payment. I tried to get a used car but didn't have a down payment, so I had to purchase a new one. They gave me $100 for my trade in on my old car, that piece of junk he left me with. Last week he got fired from his very good job because of inappropriate e-mail use in the office. He was to pay $1200 a month in support, which now I will no longer get. He has a nice car and lives on his mother's property and he has it made. I swear he got fired on purpose. I was told to try to refinance my house so I could pay for everything on my crappy little income. I am a Dept. Mgr at Wal-Mart and I have 4 kids. One of which is in college. How can I do all this and why should we suffer because he couldn't keep his pants zipped? I get so down sometimes. I know that I am doing the right thing though. It's just so hard being the mom, the dad, the gardener, the housekeeper, and the one who has to dry the kids tears when they fall because they can't do the things they have always done. Such as clothes shopping or going to get an ice cream cone. While he is entertaining the whole world we are eating top ramen and watching tv. By the way my phone was shut off last week and I scrounged up the money to have it turned back on. My cable was turned off on Thursday. Now we don't even have tv to turn to. It's just not fair. <P>Kelly

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why is it that the betrayer ends up better off?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Because the betrayed acts like it is the end of the world instead of grabbing themselves by the bootstraps & making their lives <B>better</B> than the betrayers lives.<P>Getting something for free (as in an affair & just quitting a marriage/family) is never as rewarding as having something you earned.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Yeah Chris!<P>I like that way of thinking. My H wants a divorce, which he hasn't filed yet, but I have no intention of laying down and letting the world roll over the top of me. <P>I've got a good job, albeit a new job, and when I get up to speed on my earning potential, I will easily make more money than he ever could. It will be all I can do to keep from sticking my thumbs in my ears and calling "Nyah, nayh, nayh, nayh, nayh, nayh!" <P>But, I won't. Because it will actually give me more satisfaction to be gracious and humble. <P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers,<BR>KristyAnn<P>One masculine need comes to mind which wives should not fail to heed. It reflects what men want most in their homes -- tranquility. Love for a Lifetime p.45<p>[This message has been edited by KristyAnn (edited September 30, 2000).]

Sorry Chris<BR>" the betrayer ends up better because they are SELFISH" Doing for themselves at the expense of others...( Especially family memmbers....)<P>They have lost their conscience and values...leaving many to fend for themsleves...<P>Yet these same betrayed spouses gave of themsleves for the good of the family....<P>Look around you what has happened to this society? <BR>Years ago many betrayed would have been shunned for their behaviour...now what do they get but a slap on the wrist .<BR>Leaving their spouses is ok...not leaving their responsibilities....<BR>Remember when we have children it is a job for life....not one that we can walk away from when the going gets tough..or we become unhappy...or we feel there is something missing in our lives and forsake all others to FIND it....<BR>Hogwash....<BR>Yes we can pull ourselves out of this too, and grow and become stronger....many of us will but not at the expense of our children...Lets face it should we do the time because THEY did the crime????

Nellie...I'll tell you the reason it's easier for betrayers. It's so simple, I don't know why I haven't seen it sooner. The laws favor betrayers because the ones MAKING the laws are betrayers. That's also why "alienation of affection" laws have been abolished. The ones making the laws are the ones doing the wrong. What a wonderful world we live in. I can't even buy my kids school clothes because I had to pay a $640 phone bill my ex ran up because it was ruining my credit. He was, of course, calling the ho out of state. Lovely, huh? I'm sorry I don't have any good advice. This sux and we just have to deal with it because nobody gives a damn. My ex doesn't even want the kids for Thanksgiving...he's spending it with the ho's family. What a creep. Sounds like your H and my ex are the same freaking person.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

TS,<P>No, it doesn't make me feel better - I never thought that repentant betrayers ended up better off. Just the ones who never feel any guilt.<P>honey.west,<P>It apparently makes no difference from the financial standpoint either, except that his expenses (or lack thereof) would be taken into account when it comes to paying for college, when and if he gets a job.<P>My kids are not going to be forced out of college. They worked their you-know-whats off this summer, holding multiple jobs/working 50 hours a week. One child was given a lot of financial aid from her college; the other one was not given much because, apparently, the college expects him to be able to find another job. She is spending the year abroad, which is actually a lot cheaper than going to her home college would be, even counting airfare. I would never deny her that opportunity. <P>cheermommy,<P>I am sorry to read your story - and depressed to hear that they do not necessarily spend more time with the kids even if the affair ends. No, it isn't fair. <P>Chris,<P>I can't say that I found your comment particularly helpful. I can not, within the forseeable future, earn enough money to support the children. If "pulling myself up by my bootstraps" means working a 60 hour week and neglecting my children, no, I am not willing to do that. And I shouldn't have to. <P>KristyAnn,<P>Unfortunately, I can't. I have worked part-time while raising six kids, and was a SAHM for a few years. And that does have a significant impact on earning potential, but it was a trade-off we decided to make. Of course I didn't have all the information I needed in making that decision, because he neglected to tell me that I could not count on him a) being there or b) supporting his kids decently. <P>Tyra,<P>I agree that there really are no consequences for betraying your family and then leaving them in poverty. It can't be overt - there are consequences for earning, say, a six figure income and refusing to pay child support - but a parent who was still at home would normally do whatever was necessary to support his family.<P>Keridwen,<P>I think you are probably right that a lot of the legislators/judges don't care because they are betrayers as well. And it doesn't even matter what laws are on the books - adultery is a criminal offense in my state, but it still makes little or no difference in divorce cases. <p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited September 30, 2000).]

I'm sorry to hear your frustration. I can tell with every word i read that you seem to be at wits end. I wish i had an answer for you. I don't. It must be very frustrating and exhausting i hope things turn around for you soon. God bless!<BR>I admire your courage and apparent strength<BR>

Nellie,<P>I'm sorry if I seemed insensitive to your situation. I'm not, really. I do understand how difficult it is to be out on your own trying to support your children and not able to do it in the way your H <B>promised</B> he would for the rest of your lives. <P>I had three children after my first divorce and lived as a single mom for almost 10 years. I paid all the bills from our marriage (his and mine) $5 a month at a time, rarely got child support, had to take food stamps at times, use subsidized day care, used WIC, and remember a time when all the food I had in the house was boxed macaroni and cheese and a bottle of ketchup.<P>The only thing I was trained to do was secretarial work. Even now, secretarial jobs don't pay worth a damn. But I took every class my employers offered along the way, I attended seminars whenever I could, I taught myself to use a computer and was good at it. I haven't gone back to school, but I tapped into what abilities I had and have risen above the secretarial plateau. It's taken lots of hard times, but I'm in a far better place now than when my first divorce was final.<P>I guess since I lived through that, I know that I'm not going to let this one get me down either. I will survive, and I'll be so much a better person in spite of my H's being a chicken**** cheater and a faithless, faithless man.<P>I do understand your fears, and I know it's nothing to be made light of. Make sure you get all that you can from the divorce -- alimony, child support, his retirement, health insurance, etc. Make him keep a life insurance policy on himself with you as beneficiary. The argument is that if something happens to him, he wouldn't be able to carry through with his alimony and child support obligations. <P>Ask the court that he support you through school -- even if it's just a trade school or correspondence school. Draw on the talents that you have -- and you <B>do</B>! You have managed a home and raised children, planned menus, done budgeting, etc. THAT is a job! Home based business are booming -- do some research, you may find something you love. If necessary, get him to help finance setting up a home business. <P>He can't leave you high and dry. And you won't get what you don't ask for. Don't cut him any slack. He's backing out on his promise to you, you have to do whatever you can to try to balance the scales. I know it will still not come out even in the long run, and that was your point in the first place.<P>I'm sorry, Nellie. I hope that your life's path will bring you the kind of happiness that can't be bought.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers,<BR>KristyAnn<P>One masculine need comes to mind which wives should not fail to heed. It reflects what men want most in their homes -- tranquility. Love for a Lifetime p.45

Nellie, sorry if it wasn’t helpful. No I didn’t mean to get a job & earn more money. What I meant was more basic than that.<P>If you sit around & mope, then nothing will get better. Life is what YOU make it. It is not about what others make it for you.<P>You need to do what you HAVE to do for the benefit of your family. If the only way you can put food on the table & keep a roof over their heads is to work a 60 hour week, would you do it?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

rtn,<P>Thanks for your support. Unfortunately, in the last year and a half, just when I don't think things could get any worse they do.<P>KristyAnn,<P>Unfortunately, according to my lawyer the court will not make him pay any alimony, even short term, if he is paying child support based on three children (even though we have six). The courts only care that he has enough money to live on, according to the lawyer. <P>It is not that I am not earning a decent salary. But unfortunately, when a small 3 bedroom house in this area rents for close to $2000 a month, "decent" isn't good enough. And it means I don't qualify for food stamps, even though virtually all my salary goes toward mortgage (which is less than the average rent) and food, because many govt. programs are based on some nationwide average. <P>Chris,<P>I am certainly not sitting around. I am working half time. The problem is that I put all the numbers in a spreadsheet and discovered that if I worked full time at my current salary, after subtracting daycare (which the custodial parent has to pay in this state), the reduction in child support based on the fact that I would be earning more, and the fact that the kids would qualify for less college financial aid (and we will have one or more in college almost every year for the next 18 or so years), I will come out worse off than I am now.

Nellie, I think what Chris ment (excuse me if I'm wrong) is that you need to move forward and not dwell on all the crap that your H has dealt to you. It may seem right now that he is better off but in reality he isn't. H will probably grow to be a lonely old man who's kids never come to visit because of all of the hurt he caused them and thier mother. You on the other hand can grow old knowing that you almost single handely raised those kids and they will never forget all of the sacrifices you made for them. I know you are tired and tired of worrying all of the time but it will get better eventually. Just stick in there. Don't let what you H does preoccupy your life. He made his bed now let him sleep in it. Just like all new beds this one will eventually become lumpy. <P>Life is way to short! It's up to you and only you to make it a happy one!

Crazy or what,<P>Unfortunately, this is not a new bed. He has been with her for a year and a half, not counting the months before he left that he was seeing her. He IS better off. He does not have the financial problems I have. He can do whatever he wants, when he wants, knowing full well that the kids are taken care of. He doesn't give a d*** about them any more. He didn't come to their back to school nights, he has now apparently decided that they can not visit him overnight at all, so he sees them for 1.5 hours for dinner once a week, and then about 6 hours once a month. Yet he acts happy as a clam. He seems somewhat annoyed that no one has given him a job like he feels he deserves, but he does not seem worried in the least. All those people who claimed that the affair looses it luster after time has passed are wrong - what gets lost is the children. He won't be lonely because he doesn't care whether he sees the kids or not, just like his father doesn't give a d***. When my H left he missed the children quite a lot. Now he doesn't care about them at all. <P>What the H*** is the point of ever loving anybody if they can either pretend for a quarter of a century to be something they are not, or can completely change almost overnight into a cold, heartless inhuman creature. <P>Isn't it obvious that the only reason some fathers continue to see their kids is because the OW lets them, as BonnieSept lets her H? Isn't it obvious that the vast majority of fathers (and some mothers) who divorce their spouses don't give a d*** about their children? That is why 70% of fathers drop out of their kids lives within a year, as someone mentioned a few days ago. Someone who loved their children would never divorce their spouse under any circumstances unless they could take their children with them. Unfortunately there is no way to tell which men will be among the handful who will love their children, who will put their children above their own selfish wants.<P>Chris,<P>BTW, NO - I would not work 60 hours a week and neglect my kids. I would much rather go on welfare - if this d*** state isn't willing to make the noncustodial parent support his children to the best of his ability, then the state can d*** well support them.

I know what you mean...really i do. My last year has been EXTREMELY awful. To the point where i would love to just run away. I only wish i had the resources to do so. My job is slowly picking away at me, i can't even bare to go in....my daughter was abused by my father, my ex took up with another woman, but says he loves me, my father was the abuser, so i pretty much lost both my parents.... in the same year my husband filed for divorce. <BR>UPSCALE???????<BR>I find i took the proper steps to protect my daughter, i am currently looking for a new job with hopes of even getting back into my field of study, I found out who my friends are, i found this web site, and in the midst of it all i went to my husband or ex..... for support and it took from late feb. until now for him to leave the other woman but i think maybe this time he did. Although we have issues.<BR>Don't get me wrong the other woman came along 2 months after he was court ordered out of the house.<BR>Life feels extremely frustrating and exhausting, i forget why i even get out of bed in the morning. I cry all the time now and as far as my ex goes,,,, I'm constantly guessing and wondering if i truly make him happy or if i should let him go. No sense n bringing him done with me. Somedays i feel very alone!!! I wish someone would tell me and help me, is everything going to be alright...ever?

WARNING! If you work for the IRS, don't read this!!<P>Nellie1,<BR>Any ideas to do work under the table? Or bartering with neighbors? Any skills you have can be leveraged for cash, that you may or may not decide to report to the govt. Walking dogs, sewing, cooking, yardwork, just about anything. Your kids can do the same with their work (mowing lawns, babysitting are a couple of ideas). Normally, I wouldn't suggest this, however, there are a few situations where people just fall into the cracks. To go on welfare, you'd have to prove that you have NO assets. No house, no car, nothing. At least that is the way it used to be. <P>During my last year of undergrad, my parents gave me money, not a ton, but enough to make sure I had food on the table. Did I report it? Hell no. Did they use me as a deduction? No. If they had claimed me, it would have been impossible for me to get the grants and student loans I got. As it was, I lived on less than $500/mo from being a teaching assistent.

IsnÕt NOT putting a roof over the kids heads & food on the table neglect?<P>Sorry Nellie if you just donÕt get it. At least everyone still owes you something and maybe someday youÕll get it. DonÕt hold your breath though.<P>Hope someday life will give you what you want.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A><p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited October 01, 2000).]

Chris,<P>Don't you dare accuse me of expecting "everybody" to owe me something. I have raised six kids while working part or full-time for almost my entire adult life. I would have been perfectly willing to work and have my H be a SAHD, but it wasn't practical because his earning potential was higher than mine. Right now I am providing 75% of the income coming into this household. I homeschooled them for 7 years, much of it while working part-time. I have done hundreds of hours of volunteer work. My H and I milked cows and shoveled manure for a living for a couple of years, while raising 5 kids including a baby, and while I had another job working 20-30 hours a week. Don't tell me that either I or my pre-affair H ever expected things to be handed to us. <P>MY HUSBAND, however, DOES owe me something. And he owes the kids even more. It is his responsibility to support them to the best of his ability. And it should be the state's responsibility to make sure that the parents don't get to leave their children and then not support them to the best of their ability. <P>If the choice were between letting my kids go hungry and working a 60 hour week, of course I would not let them go hungry. Wouldn't it make more sense for him to work the 60 hour week? It's not like he spends much time with them even when he is not working. If the choice is between leaving my kids 60 hours a week and getting financial help from the state, then it is obvious to me that refusing to accept financial help from the state would be neglectful. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited October 01, 2000).]

looking ahead,<P>I am sorry to hear about your year. It must have been terrible, for you and your daughter.<P>TheStudent,<P>Unfortunately, I can't even get another (at least over the counter) part-time job, because then I would lose my eligibility for state medical insurance, and be left with none at all. The only medical insurance available would eat up most of my earnings, and daycare would eat up the rest. The real problem is the large gap between the federal poverty level and the real poverty level in this area.