My husband I rarely or never fought. This was in part because I usually went along with what he wanted. But on the other hand he was never one to force his views or wants on me. In fact I would say that he was very sensitive to meeting my needs. Until I found out about HER, I could probaby count on my hands the number of big fights we had in 29 years. Since then is a different matter. Now he tells me that this just shows how wrong our relationship was. He says that people in good relationships do fight without it hurting their relationship. I always bragged about how we never fought because I thought this showed how well suited we were for each other. <P>Now the personal question. I have already said how my husband told me that he had not been sexually attracted to me for 25 years. I have never told another soul this other than my counselor. This along with the knowledge that he and the OW have a great sex life has crushed my self esteem and I don't know if I will ever regain it. My husband says that we are just not right for each other as lovers and never were and there is nothing wrong with me. Is this possible? Once I had to drop something off at his house and he wasn't there but one of his employees was and let me in. This was after we separated. Well I took advantage to snoop in his bedroom and I wish I hadn't. Not only were all her things there (makeup etc.) but in the drawers by the beds I found some kinky sex things. We never used things of that kind and I had no idea he wanted to. I honestly never even thought about it. I guess my question is is it possible for us to have been married all this time and be wrong for each other sexually as he said? We were having sex about 4 or 5 times a year. I found out he and the OW have sex 4 or 5 times a week! Sometimes I wonder if I even know the world I live in.

discarded,<P>I think you are confusing two different issues. 1) Did you meet your H's needs for sex? No, it would seem that you didn't.<P>2) Could you have satisfied your H, had things been different? My guess is that you certainly could, but only you can answere whether you would have or not.<P>Now, you were satisfied with 3-4 times a year. Obviously sex is of no big importance to you. It appears that it was for your H. I suspect what really bothers you is his statement that for 25 years he wasn't attracted to you sexually. Could be true, might very well be revisionist history.<P>I will say from my experience, that lack of enthusiasm on the part of my W, is a very big turn off. She would agree to have sex, but it was, " well OK! if you need to". After awhile I had big problems with sexual attraction for her. It had nothing to do with appearance.<P>I came to MB over a year and 1/2 ago because I had come to the conclusion she didn't love me and one of the issues was exactly this issue. After reading here I realized I was looking at things wrong and I could change somethings and I did. Things are better now.<P>By the way, I am in you and your H's age bracket.<P>Further, while I have not replied to you before I don't think, I do believe a woman 61 years old, can be and often is very attractive. It really depends on your attitude. If you develop an enthusiasm for life, and yes even sex, you will find men being strongly attracted to you.<P>We really are easy you know. <P>So please think about your questions. I think that you are confusing the two issues. Could things have been different had you two felt comfortable enough with each other to talk years ago, Yep I think so. Are you capable of satifying him now,if you had the chance, no doubt about it if you decided you wanted to.<P>Hope this helps.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>PS: As for the lack of fighting, I don't think that is a bad thing. What was a bad thing is that you two couldn't open up to each other about your needs. You should have guessed he needed more sex, but really you shouldn't have had to. He should have been talking to you. It really sounds to me like to relatively independent and capable people drifted apart during the course of life.<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited October 05, 2000).]

discarded,<P>I have thought of you SO often and wondered how you were doing. I've followed your story and replied to you before. <P>"It really depends on your attitude. If you develop an enthusiasm for life, and yes even sex, you will find men being strongly attracted to you.".<P>That says it all dear. Do take care and don't second guess your past to the point that you miss out on your future. I see a diamond in the rough!<P>JL<P>My hat is off to you all the way around.<P><BR>Ragamuffin<P>

Discarded,<BR>My x and I never fought very much either. I am like you in that I usually went along with what she wanted and I was satisfied with that. I never felt like she was abusing the situation.<P>As for the sex, last year we were down to about every 6 weeks. Prior to that it was every couple weeks on her weekends off.<P>I had her fill out the EN questionaire and when it came to sex, she said she wanted it 3/week. I was dumbfounded, in that we never, ever had sex that often even in our earlier pre children era.<P>I read or was told that people in a MLC have a heightened sexual awareness. X demonstrated this to me by discussing how I never french kissed her or treated her like a whore. She also told me she wanted to start dressing sexier.<P>I have to admit it was all very confusing to me. It was like she became this whole different person and now no longer was interested in old boring me.

I am questioning whether I could have ever satisfied my husband sexually. I certainly didn't know that he had that great of a need. He says that it was not a big need until he met the OW. I also wonder if that is possible? That someone could just all the sudden make you into a more sexual person? It honestly makes me wonder what she has that he founds so attractive and wants so much beyond of course her age and beauty? Thank you everyone as always for giving me something to think about. All this thinking is starting to at least make me feel better because I don't feel I'm chasing my tail as much. I never confronted my husband about the sex appliances and other things I found because that would have meant admitting that I snooped in his bedroom. He would have been very angry over that because we had been separated for six months when it happened. But it made me realize they must be doing alot of things that we never did and that I never even thought about or thought he wanted. To be honest I'm not sure what I would have said or done if he had come to me. And I can't help but wonder if I put him off from talking to me about it because I have been told that I am a very reserved person. I guess sex was never that high of a need for me. Companionship and security are much more important. I always thought that companionship and a steady spouse were also important to him. I wonder if I could have learned to care more about sex or if I ever could have given him what he needed? What I resent the most is that I wasn't given the chance to try. Even now I would try if he would give me the chance.<P>About fighting, I know that he and the OW have had some big fights and there were several times that she broke things off with him or he did with her during the year and a half after discovery before he moved out for the last time. I know they had some big fights about that and I know they have fought about other things. He told the therapist that every time they broke it off and then got back together it just made their relationship stronger. SHE also told me that she had tried to stay away from him but sometimes he came back to her and sometimes she came back to him. Of course he had told me it was always her not leaving him alone but that was another lie he finally admitted. It was both of them. Every time I would discover that they were back together again I felt like I had lost a little bit more, another fight lost and another that SHE won. It was like slipping slowly down into a black hole. I told him the other day that I was not sure I was ready yet to divorce and was thinking of just waiting a while and he said whatever I wanted and he didn't care either way. It's not the first time I've said that and it seems that he doesn't care. He just goes ahead and lives his life with HER, spending all his time with HER, taking her on trips and being DAD to her kids. Then when I say to him I am going ahead he just says fine, do what makes you happy. I tell him I am thinking of moving out of state and even get to the point of talking about making an offer on a property and he just says good idea! You should do it! You need to get on with your life! I tell him I don't want to talk to him and he says fine! Whatever will make it easier for you! And then he leaves me alone for weeks until I finally contact him again. When am I going to get it through my head that he means it? When will I be able to handle the pain of that truth? I saw in the paper that SHE is going to be a regular on a local radio station talking about fitness. It's the talk radio station that I have listened to for years. Now I'll have to worry about even turning on the radio or I'll hear her voice. I think moving might just be what I have to do next.

Hi all,<BR>I haven't posted in quite awhile. I have been lurking.<BR>But, this question hit home. I occasionally speak with the OW husband. We spoke last night. He tells my OW tells all her friends that my H and I had a bad sex life and that is why they get along so well. <BR>She has been married 3 times had 3 affairs on second H and at least 2 on third H. She has had group sex and LOVES anal sex. My H has all kinds of sex toys and things called "butt beads". They are kinky gross people. If that is what it takes to satisfy my H than there is nothing I can do about that. RWD comments about hightened sexual awareness during MLC could explain him. It is ironic because I was never that happy with my H performance and lack of interest.<BR>I am 37 he is 49 she is 50. I dont think anything will ever make sense.<BR>She is a whore and a liar and he is pathetic. The end of August he was going to move back here to Arizona. She went on a hunger strike and threatened to kill herself because he wanted to live here near our son and put him first. Well, the manipulation worked. Off he ran. The addiction is sick and as sad and hurt as my S and I are, I wouldn't want his sick life for anything.<BR>Now all I want is for them to stay away from us and leave my beautiful child alone until he gets some therapy. <BR>Lisa

Discarded,<BR>It is natural to try and pull out the "one issue" you think did your marriage in.<P>I've been married twice. In neither of my marriages was sex an issue (except my first wanted to have sex with me AND every female that crossed his path!). My second ex said that the sex was probably what he would miss the most about me, yet I'm still divorced!<P>You see, I really don't think it is ever ONE thing. Well, I take that back. The ONE thing is usually communication. Without it, everything else falls apart. You can't possibly be expected to read your H's mind. If lack of sex was an issue, he should have talked to you first. He says he didn't desire you sexually, but he did NOTHING to try and change that. All of this is so typical. So many people (especially remorseless betrayers) want to put the blame on the other spouse, because they don't have the guts to express their needs. Wha-la, new person enters the picture who meets their needs, and they don't have to lift a finger. <P>My first ex said he felt extremely attracted to oriental women. Well, since I'm of scandinavian descent, there is absolutely nothing I could do in that respect. A year after he divorced me, he married an oriental woman. Surprise, surprise, he was soon divorced from her too. He came looking for me about 7 yrs after he divorced me. Tisk,tisk.

The Student is right. Communication is what causes problems in a marriage. Example. I too have an ex. In regards to your questions about fighting. Did we fight? Well if you call all of our disagreements and arguing being one-sided then yes we had fights. You see the first and biggest problem that him and I had was communication. Every decision in our marriage was made by me. I'd ask for his opinion or thoughts but it was always "I don't know. What ever you think". If I got angry at him and tried to have a discussion about it with him he never "discussed" back. The anger and resentment would build to the point where I would scream at him, through things (not at him but I'd through things) in a last ditch effort to get a response from him. He'd just look at me with a dump look on his face. So, no communication between us was the first thing we lacked and everything sucked as a result of it. Sex? I figured from day one (he was my first partner) that I was a cold fish in that department. He was always the one to initiate it and I would have been happy never having sex. I was not sexually attracted to him and it wasn't because I didn't like his looks either. We were just lacking in other emotional areas that it affected my feelings towards him. In my second marriage we don't fight. However, we DO have disagreements. They are settled by COMMUNICATION. We discuss, listen and hear. I've never yelled or threw anything. Sex? Lets just say I'm NOT a cold fish. In my first marriage I avoided sexual encounters at all costs and now I'm ready and willing when ever he is. But, (like somebody else mentioned) - enthusiasm is the key to this too. My husband knows how I feel about him and he loves the enthusiasm. Again, it has nothing to do about her being more beautiful then you, are younger. My guess is your husband was not meeting a lot of your inner needs for you to not be more enthusiasm. I think you were both conflict avoiders and it fell apart a little at a time. It wasn't anything to do about her. I really think you will realize that your a beautiful woman at 61, you will be at 71 etc.... Have confidence in yourself, have enthusiasm and in the end you will get even with HER. That type of attitude will show!

discarded,<P>Just a few more comments. What is clear is that your H is now very attracted to this woman. She is very likely sexually agressive and that is attractive to us (ahem, older men). Further, as I was trying to point out, you and your H did not seem to communicate well together. Not at all uncommon.<P>I believe your mistake is believing that this is about you. From what you have said, it is not. That is why your H is behaving as he is toward you. He knows he left you. He knows he cheated on you. He knows he owes you as much happiness as he can give, hence you get what you want from him and encouragement to do whatever you think will make you happy. He would probably enter into a joint business venture with you.<P>discarded, you chose the right name. But you weren't discarded because you failed. No, it was because your H was looking for something else in his life. I'll bet even the issue of divorce is a double edged sword to him. He doesn't want to marry live in girl friend, because he knows it won't last. But he doesn't want to keep you from your future, because he cheated and broke his vows from you. Right now being married means she cannot pressure him to marry her, but he probably doesn't really like being known as an adulter.<P>discarded, step back and look at this mess. Yes, you could have been a better wife. Heck, we all could be better spouses, but you didn't chose this, you didn't cheat, and you didn't refuse your H. He never articulated them to you.<P>So make plans for your future. Get out enjoy people, your CC, your life. You have lead it honorably. The OW has won a da-- thing. She hasn't got your H's name, she has been an adulteress, and her children will know it. Nice vitory. You get and will get a good chunck of H's money, and he has lost the respect of his daughter. She may love him, but I doubt that she respects him.<P>Discarded, quite focussing on a woman who can only get what she wants on her back.<P>Please think about this.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Hi discarded, <P>On the subject of fighting...<P>My stbx and I fought like cats and dogs (verbally, not physically) - we had PASSION about EVERYTHING. It's one of the things that I think drew us together. <P>Now that we're older, we both agree that it wasn't always the best way to do things, but we are both very emotional and it was how we handled our life together.<P>About something else you said, you didn't know your H's need for sex was so high. Honey, Make an assumption that ALL MEN'S NEED FOR SEX IS HIGH. I dated quite a few men before I married, and NOT ONE had a low sex drive! <P>Finally, I agree with JL (this is my mantra ). You need to quit blaming yourself for your H's mid-life crisis. Yes, you may have learned a few things to take into your life for the future (like what I said above about men and their sex drives! I bet you'll never rely on 3-4 times a year and think that's enough again!). Bottom line though: your H made a CHOICE to have an affair. That is HIS CHOICE ALONE.<P>Take care.

I must have been married to one of the only men without a libido. About five years into our marriage, he started avoiding sex sporadically. I have always been enthusiastic about sex with him and enjoyed it whenever I could get him in the mood, which became less and less over the years. By the last 5 years of our marriage (we were married almost 17 years when he walked out to be with his OW), he could only manage to be in the mood once or twice a year. I think that his withholding was a means of punishing me for not "towing the line", and he also avoided it so he could pull away emotionally until he no longer cared for me at all, making it much easier to dump me. Chances are he will treat the OW (now his wife) the same way eventually. It really just boiled down to emotional blackmail.

I agree wholeheartedly with JL. It is so,so easy to place all the blame on our ourselves. You need to step back look at yourself, determine what you contributed to the marriage problems, and work on those areas to improve yourself.<P>I had a few counselors tell me that the affair/divorce were about her, not me. The same is true in your case.<P>God Bless,<P>Bob

Discarded-<P>Your question about fighting is a good one. I really believe that fighting and "Usually Going Along With What Your Spouse Wants" is a combination of many things that deal with setting boundaries, sense of self and being able to communicate feelings, needs and the resolution of conflict in a healthy and loving manner.<P>Do not be too hard on yourself. Dr. Harley's book His Needs Her Needs really opened my eyes...The biggest key learning I found was that you have to comminicate on a daily basis more than you can ever imagine. Nurturing your partner by meeting their most important emotional needs is not something we all understood very well as witness that we are all here seeking information and guidance. The importance of sex to your husband seems like it was one of his most important emotional needs.<P>Do not beat yourself up...yes the fact that you and your husband were not "Communicating" about each of your emotional needs and what each of you really needed from each other may have contributed to seeking an EA. But he made the choice and has to take the personal responsibility for his actions.<P>Dr. Harley wrote an article that talks about about how for both men and women in a relationship have different emotinal needs and when it comes to sex that he sees three distinct areas of "Couple Behavior" that includes 1. Having No Sex-Not healthy for most relationships and/or partners. 2. A willingness to have sex which many times is felt to be an obligation. and 3. A desire to have sex...which he says...is the mindset that seems to be the one that helps keep couples linked in this particular area of ther relationship and the importance of this area as an emotional need that more men seem to have at the top of their Emotional Needs list.<P>Self-care is important for you. Take care of yourself and do something nice for yourself this coming week. <P>mrrlk<P>