I am so sorry that all of you struggled with abuse. Thank you for sharing. I have never been physically abused; but my husband is very threatening sometimes (angry outburst are the worst -- very scary -- especially in the car) and I am struggling with what to do about it. I've been reading up on verbal abuse in The Verbally Abusive Relationship and another book by survisors. One of the things that is suggested toward the end of the book is decide if you want to say with the abuser and work it out or move on. Several people here have given me mixed responses to my past posts (the most in depth was under "Why women leave" several months ago). More recently someone indicated that verbal abuse is no reason to end a marriage with kids involved (I have a 3 year old little girl -- I'm afraid she is going to be a floor matt just like me in her relationships). I am depressed, upset, distracted and torn. I can't continue to function in my current mindset; i.e. I need to either let go or dig into the marriage and try yet again to tackle the issues. I know I have weak boundries (thanks for the link by the way--I'll definately get the book) or if I should just end it (after 11 years). What is your input?

Verbal abuse is wrong...<BR>Infidelity is wrong...<BR>A drug addiction is wrong...<BR>Alcoholism is wrong...<BR>Addiction to gambling is wrong...<P>...but does that bring you to the end of the marriage...<P>...I hope not.<P>Counseling is most definitely in order...<BR>...consider it...<BR>...you may have to start out by yourself...<BR>...hopefully in time... your H will join in.<P>Prayers to you and your family... <P>Jim

Barbara,<P> Check out this site. Someone here referred me to it. H checked it out with me and it was an eye opener for him. <P> <A HREF="http://www.drirene.com/what1.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.drirene.com/what1.htm</A> <P> SheRa

Abuse, no matter what kind, be it verbal or physical is wrong. You as a person do not deserve it. And verbal/emotional/physical it will all leave scars.<P>As I said in a different post, when my STBX would get mad and hit me, I felt that less than the words that he would call me or say to me. Those went deep into me, while the rest... stopped phasing me after awhile. He never bruised me so nobody knew. But the emotional stuff tore me apart inside. <P>I definatly agree with Jim on counsling. You should go and attempt to tackle some of your issues there. If for nothing else, it is a helpful release so that you don't keep the things inside of you bottled up any longer. That's not good for a person. I would strongly suggest that if you can get him to go, to do so. You shouldn't hurt the ones that you love, physically or mentally. It is just wrong.<P>I don't envy your situation. But keep the faith and be strong. Work through it the best you can and most of all take care of yourself and your children.<P>-Java

I disagree with whoever told you that you should tolerate verbal abuse because you have children. What do you think the children will learn watching your H beat you with his words?<P>If you are not ready to give up on the marriage, definitely get counseling (your kids might need it as well to counteract what they may have already learned).<P>Give it a certain amount of time (say 6 months?) to see some improvement. It may take longer than that for the abuse to stop completely, but after 6 months you will probably see whether there is improvement and whether you are willing/able to hang in there for the long run.

Barbara,<P>I'm not sure how you feel but when I was living with my stbx, I would much rather be slapped than verbally abused. I could take the pain from the physical abuse because that went away. But I'm still suffering from the low self-esteem that comes with the verbal abuse. I still have alot of problems handling anything complimentary that's said about me. <P>Verbal abuse is definately wrong. But if you are willing, I think it would be much easier for your H to learn to control than physical abuse.<P>Lots of luck and hugs,<BR>Mitzi

Barbara,<P>You got some good answers from a lot of great people here. Its such a tough question. <P>Do you end a marriage over abuse?? <P>I suffered from verbal/emotional abuse too. That is a tough one. People, friends and families, don't see physical bruises on you. They don't see you with a cast on a broken arm and they don't see you bleeding. But you are in more pain than anyone can see or imagine. And that kind of abuse stays with you for a long long time.<P>I don't believe in anyone giving up on their marriages. At least not without a fight. I agree with Jim that counseling is a good start, but sometimes, after years and years, you do have to make a decision as well.<P>Ultimately you have to do what is best for you, your situation will be different than anyone else's.<P>I suppose if you really love him, I'd say, try to save the marraige and show him how he is hurting you. If he refuses, at that point, what could you do? You tried. You could learn to deal with it, or you leave. Its a hard decision.<P>Prayers to you, good luck, Dana<BR>

What I came to be known as around my home:<P>Stupid B**ch<BR>Ugly B**ch<BR>Selfish B**ch<BR>Lazy B**ch<P>His choice of words to resolve a situation:<P>F**k you<P><BR>Need I say more?<P>However, when I would say "Please calm down, let's talk about this. . ."<P>He would respond "All you ever want to do is fight!"<P>When I cried over words that cut me to the bone, all I got was:<P>"Why don't you go out on the patio so the neighbors can see you and feel sorry for you."<P>"Why don't you cry in front of the kid so that you can f**k him up too."<P>"Always feeling sorry for yourself--grow up."<P>I guess this is projection at it's finest. And I actually tried so hard, with many tears, to make this marriage work. What more could I do?

When I told my ex I felt suicidal, his response was:<P>"Give me the keys. I don't want you to do it in my apartment."<P>I agree that words are much worse than fists. At least, with physical abuse, you might have a bruise or some way to show the damage. With verbal abuse, it goes sight unseen. The only symptoms are depression, then of course, the abuser has one more reason to tell people "See? SHE is the screwed up one" (or HE, if the abuser is a woman).<P>

Thanks to all of you who have responded. I'll address each of your responses.<P>NSR -- Sorry about your divorce (I saw your other post) and sorry that you are hurting. Thanks for being here for all of us at a time when things are hard for you. With regard to your response, we have actually done counseling as a couple a few times and I went for over a year myself. I should explain that about 6 years ago I left H after much counceling by myself because of his verbal abuse. I made two big mistakes -- I got involved with someone else (man did that make H really angry--and he uses that over and over to this day) and I went back too soon (we didn't learn much from the experience I guess). During our separation we did counseling but there were two things that sort of impacted that -- I was still involved with OM and the counselor took me aside and told me that I should never reconcil with H. She told us both we were oil and water that would mix when shaken but since we were both so different, we would always separate again after some time. At that time we didn't have a child, so I went ahead with the divorce papers. Later we reconciled and I dropped the divorce; I went back for what I believe are the wrong reasons (jealousy -- he had met someone; loneliness/desparation -- OM was a physcial abuser, so I had 'left' him; fear of being alone; etc.) It was good for about a year; then we had our daughter. When she was 6 months old we started counseling again. This time he was resistant to going; he really hated it and let me know about it all the time. He was doing it for me, etc., etc. So eventually it just wasn't worth the slack I got for it, and I let it drop...we've never been back. So very long story short, it won't be an option for us as a couple right now I think--changes will have to come from me initially. I am not ready to start personal counseling again quite yet, mostly because of time constraints (I am a working mom, and I am primarily responsible for our daughter and our home life). I've got some books that I'm digging into to help me, but the question that always comes up is about why to work it out. Is there hope for a healthy relationship in the future. I don't think so really. He is angry at the world; I think for childhood issues. I can't fix that; I can only fix myself and decide about how to deal with his inpact on me and our daughter. After all these years my gut tells me that it will never change. He doesn't value my opinion, my values, my contributions, or my strengths (I am personable, bright, attractive, dependable, etc). He recently told me he only stays with me because of our daughter because "it is always about me" and it always has been. That coupled with the fact that he "may never be able to trust me again" although I have been faithful for six years, and dedicated to him and my daughter in everything I do every moment of the day. I've told him over and over I was sorry; it was a mistake, and if we did ever separate again I wouldn't be getting involved with another person as I have never been just me. I hear those comments from him and I think, I can't fight this battle anymore. I'm tired, I'm scared for myself and more importanly for my child. <P>SheRa -- Thanks for the site. I've actually been there before. You know I did share this site (MB) with him; and he never once took a look at it. Do you think me saying "H, I think we have verbal abuse issues we need to address, so could you look a this website" will make a difference. I think it will piss him off! He sees this as my problem. He can't give any more he says; it's all up to me now.<P>Java -- Thanks for you understanding. Thank God for this book I've been reading about verbal abuse. It validated my experiences so much. The angry outbursts, especially in the car, have impacted me badly. (I'm so fearful in the car with him; and he hates it passionately. And he doesn't understand why -- the cause and effect of it.) The confusion that subtle incidents cause; second guessing yourself; going over and over something to understand how a conversation turned into a raging, ranting wall punching event. Conversations rehashed -- no longer the same as what actually was said. It makes you crazy; survivors throughout these books verified it over and over for me. <P>Truthseeker -- Actually someone posted and article about the impacts of divorce on children that started this whole post for me. If you can find that link, you will see. I wonder about the impact of divorce on a 3 year old vs. the abuse she has already heard and see. He is so opinioned and self centered; I really fear her growing up years because she is very sensative. He will squash her emotionally. Really, it scares me to death. (By the way, somone else told me in one of my past posts that I was putting her ahead of my marriage and that was wrong. My H and our relationship should go first -- OK ?!?). I've actually told myself that after the first of the year it would be go or no-go. But I hadn't rededicated myself to making it a go. Maybe in the next three months I can try to put the past behind me, forget the things that have happened and start a fresh page. Keep my boundries up; tell him when he abuses me I will not accept it; and see what happens. What do I have to lose besides more time, huh?<P>Mitzi -- Thanks for sharing, and for your input and encouragement. I would not tolerate physical abuse. My counselor told me in the past that I should have the same stance with verbal abuse; zero tolerance. This is where I didn't keep my boundaries. He recently told me "If you don't wipe that look off your face; I will wipe it off for you." Amazingly, I said to him "Are you threatening to hit me?!" He backed off. I was soooo proud of myself. Easy. Anger abuse is so much harder to counter; you are usually so off balance after they've thrown something; hit the cat; hit the wall; nearly run someone off the road; whatever, that you can't fight back. Then when you do, you get the "You are making a big deal out of nothing." or "You always take the other guys side; and that makes me angrier at you than I am at that *******" or some other minizing justification. How many times should I say to him "Don't drive like that with me and our daughter in the car" or "Don't hit the cat; you could really hurt him" before I've done my part and can walk away knowing I've done it and I'm done. By the way, I know that I am not an angel, but I don't throw, drive erratically or abuse property or animals to make my point. I have a smart mouth sometimes and I have "a look" he takes offense to, but these are not nearly justification for his behavior.<P>DanaB- I agree. Very good answers; I appreciate the input. People do see the hurt he causes me with his verbal abuse. He has done it in front of friends and family on a number of occasions. He actually threw someting acrossed the room once in front of his own mother because I wouldn't make someone apologize to him for interceding when he was verbally abusing me for my protesting for something he had done in the car (chicken on the shoulder of CA101 at 90 MPH--scary!). Can you believe that? But then folks tell you to try again; try counceling; work on yourself and he will eventually see the changes and make his own. Sure, I am walking around like a bleeding, gapping wound...I don't want to revisit it all again in counceling so I can argue with him about why it was wrong...I don't want to let my defenses down, drop the anger and invite hopefulness back in. Why? Toward what end? Delaying the inevitable; giving in to the guilt my thoughts about divorce cause me. Giving up my marriage, huh? Is it me giving up my marriage? Me, the victim of his abuse, who has failed and given up??? -- Opps sorry, venting... Thanks again Dana. Thanks for the prayers too. I appreciate them.<P>Bernzini -- I am sooo sorry. I've not been name called like that in our relationship. You need not say more. God bless you Sweetie. You could do no more to make your marriage work. You should check out the verbal abuse books I've read...they will help you feel so much better about what you've experienced. You can't take it away ever; it is a tragic part of you. But to be validated and understood means sooo much. It helps you understand the power over you that abusers need since they have no personal power -- usually steming from the power over approach of raising children. "Do it because I said so or else." This often causes children extreme pain and if that pain isn't addressed, as adults the abuser perpetuates the misuse of power in adulthood. (Understanding it doesn't mean you have to feel sorry for the abuser and live with it though--that's codependency!)<P>I've been told by H that I don't think for myself and I always listen to others opinions as if I don't have my own. I've been told that things I do are stupid and I always make things too simple--I just don't get it. He has threatened to tear my house apart in front of my daughter if I didn't "change my attitude." When we were separated several years ago, he threatened to kill my parents or set their house on fire. He called me with a gun to his head. If I called him on this stuff, as I said before, it is either minimized or it escalates and it is now all my fault for making him angry. <P>Thanks again to everyone for responding. I guess I'll just go on for a while longer studying books and trying to decide what I can live with. <P>Barbara

Student,<P>I did visit with my counselor and talk about taking anti-anxiety drugs. I decided against them since they can be used against you in a custody battle. I will never, never share those feelings with my H as they will then become ammunition.<P>Sucks huh?<P>Barbara

Barb, <P>I'd say first of all from someone who grew<BR>up in a verbally abusive home..and have been there in most every single relationship I've<BR>ever had..(if it wasn't the relationship TO<BR>ME In MY MIND wasn't normal) Boy, was I WRONG!!! The verbal abuse stays with you for<BR>many many years..it hits to the core of what<BR>you think of yourself as a person..and YES<BR>it will effect your children, and whose to say that HE won't do the same to her??? Just because he doesn't do it yet..doesn't mean HE won't..and once the self-esteem is shot its<BR>easier for them to have complete control of your life..because YOU won't feel you deserve <BR>anything else..because those words are all YOU will ever hear in your own mind...<P>Get OUT You don't have to divorce right away<BR>but at least seperate..and get yourself some<BR>counseling..and if you can't leave then at least get yourself into counseling..and in <BR>a support group..and around people who will<BR>encourage you...

My x was a good verbal/emotional abuser. In a passive/agressive way. Still does it though he's been gone five years. Go figure.

Oh my gosh, so much of this sounds SO familiar. I've been wanting a separation if not an all-out divorce for so long -- been told so much evil about myself I've felt I *owe* him another chance over & over -- I really don't know what to think of the verbal abuse anymore, tired of being told I'm thin skinned, selfish, ignorant, lazy, f*cked in the head, worthless, etc. etc.<P>Even though it seems to have gotten better lately, it's hard to shake all those feelings I get just from recalling and typing the words. I don't think I have what it takes to make it work now, no matter how much I'm told I HAVE TO do it for the kids, or that I HAVE TO do it because of all the sh*t that -I- put -him- through, or anything else. People keep telling me to pray about our relationship, and all I feel when I do is an invitation to leave.<BR>

T-L-C<P>I'm sorry, staying for the sake of the kids<BR>is wrong IMHO..they will learn thats how you treat others..if you have sons they will learn thats how you treat women..and girls will learn thats what to be expected from their husband..

<BR>Others have told me I need to stay for the sake of the kids ...<P>Personally I know better, but I'm afraid I'll lose them if I leave ... please see my thread on 'scared of losing kids' as it gets very complicated.

Well I've been there 11 years of daily verbal abuse, I became a shell, all my friends stayed away and my life was centered around doing whatever I had to to make my X Husband from being angry, though whatever I did I was call every name imaginable, in frond of anyone, anywhere. The physical abuse occurred on/off depending on how I would areact to the verbal abuse, usually if I asked him to stop and try to get him to realize what he was doing. I went to see a Therapist for myself (on request of my boss who could here him actually yelling at me over the phone at work and would see me crying) and the first thing she suggested was that I get the same book "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" - I read it over from cover to cover 3 times before the light bulb went off and I said wow - this is my life - every chapter, every page discribed what I had been living in. I tried to work with my ex to get him to understand, but he told me I was crazy and should check myself in to a mental hospital. That's when I realized I could no longer live with him - It's been a year since our divorce and he's still as verbally abusive and controlling as he was than. Maybe someday he'll realize his faults, in the meantime I have worked on mine and feel better and better everyday, being away from him has really increased my self respect.

Well, last night he did it again. Wants me to stand there while he fusses at me. I just kept telling him that I didn't like his attitude and he needed to adjust it. That God had not died and he had not inherited that position.<P>I kept trying to go inside but he kept saying that I could stay there and get my child support check due the middle of the month so that I could have it in the bank on time or I could go in and get it Sunday morning. So, like an idiot, I stayed. One of these days, though, I'll be stronger.<P>Found out later that he had a run-in earlier in the evening with someone at the counter of a fast food restaurant. Had the children with him. I bet I caught the brunt of his anger from that.<P>I'm getting there.

DA..YAY for you for getting out..and working on you!!! I'm proud of you..<P>Cinderella..when he starts just walk away..<BR>there is a book the "Dance of Anger" that helped me, and also "Beauty For Ashes"<BR>Heck I've read so many books this past year that they have all helped in some way or another.."Irregular People" "Shelter from the storm" "The Wounded Heart" "Adult Children of Alcholics" "Toxic Parents" some will help you understand what this will do to your kids..and that is a scary thought!!!<P>I've started reading "Boundries" this past week..and it helped me this past weekend to talk to him Saturday..without all the anger..although that did hit sunday..so saturday was kinda negated..but he doesn't see where HE has a problem either..but I have learned I don't need to take it anymore..<P>My prayers are with you..for Gods strength and wisdom

My computer is having a "male moment" and wouldn't cooperate. It couldn't comprehend any instructions I gave it. I guess it didn't hear me. Sort of like the x. Spit. Spit. Spit in his eye. Yup, talked to the scumbag who doesn't even deserve to breathe this morning. Sorry to vent on everyone. I'll go take a powder and calm down. Breathe. Breathe. Relax. Relax. It'll be ok. It'll be okay. It'll be okay.