Well, after I thought things were better, maybe they are not.<br>After Monday nights talk, and her telling me that her affair is no longer OUR issue, and telling me that she resents me for finding out, I was angry. I didn't speak to her at all last night.<br>This morning, I signed on and re-read the rules on Honesty and Protection. So, when my wife returned from the gym, I said good-bye as normal, and told her I loved her. She has only told me this once in the past 3 months (2 weeks ago). She replied "She knows". I told her that she told me she loved me 2 weeks ago, and that I would appreciate hearing it again, once in a while. She said she can't, because she is not sure she does. She said she felt it at the time, so she said it.<br>Then I told her we have to base our relationship on total truth. Something I discuss with my therapist, weekly. I told her some truths that I was holding back. But, she said she is unwilling, and unable to talk. Maybe she will be in the future, maybe not.<br>A long convesation started regarding truth, honesty, and dedication to our relationship. I asked her to confirm that she wanted to try to work things out, and stay together. She said she couldn't do that, because she doesn't know if she can be happy. I told her I was not asking for a lifetime commitment, only a commitment that she WANTED to try. I feel that if you work towards an ending, this is where you have a chance of winding up. She replied, "what will be, will be". I don't know if I can accept this.<br>Then we discussed the OM. Finally got out of her that she did LIKE him. Still, not love. She also said she feels guilty when she sees him. And that she is not ashamed at what she did. She said she knows it was wrong. She is guilty about it. But no shame. Yet, she does not want anyone to know. <br>I asked her if she wanted me home, or not. She said she didn't know. She complained again that she has aged 10 years in the past 4 months. And her life is total misery. I told her to look at what she has, as opposed to what she doesn't have (always her problem). She said she has nothing now. I told her she has a husband, who, knowing what she did, still loves and wants her. And that, most of her friends probably do not have a husband as dedicated to their wives, as I am to mine. She said that "all men" would do this because they can't live alone, or take care of themselves.<br>I don't know if I can live with her attitudes of shame. Or not caring to try. I don't know if this is discouragement, or just reality sinking in.<br>I think that moving out might be the best thing. I think it might make her see reality. I don't see much in her right now, of the woman I married, or fell in love with. Nor, do I want my kids being brought up by a woman who thinks that an extra-marital affair with a married man is nothing to be ashamed of. She has damaged one family, and could possible damage two.<br>I am so mad, I am shaking.<br>I don't think I will make the decision to move out until February, or March. I'll wait until after the holidays, and also, a family vacation in February. Our anniversary is in March, and I don't know if I can stand being in the house at that time.<br>I am also posting this on the Infidelity board.<p>[This message has been edited by Bill (edited 12-08-98).]

Bill,<p>((((((HUGS)))))<p>This is the bottom of the ride. I know how you feel. I have spent many days down there. I know you may not see it as much as I do, but it is good that your wife is talking and being as honest as she can with you. You know that your wife needs help and I don't think you can fix things until she gets it. I also don't think that she feels no shame. She doesn't seem to feel much of anything. I bet if you asked her another time she would feel shame for it. Just like there are times she says that she feels love for you and there are times she doesn't. I know that living with things like they are is hard. Only you can know when it is time to call it quits. My prayers are with you as always. <p>Steph

Steph,<br>Those hugs were great. Thanks.<br>Don't get me wrong. Moving out is not calling it quits. It is just that I don't know if I can stand the pain anymore on a day-to-day basis. <br>I have often said, and still say, that I would jump in front of a train for my wife. Unfortunately, this is like burning slowly on a spit. And being turned by the one you love. As this progresses, I feel my love for her leaving me. <br>Also, there is the issue of leaving my kids. In her state, I don't know what kind of mother she can be to them. Especially alone. Giving this a time period may be the best thing for me. It gives me a definitive target to look at. At that time, I will re-evaluate my situation.<br>Thanks again for you prayers and wishes.<br>

Bill,<p>I didn't mean to imply that you were calling it quits. I just meant to say that you need to follow your heart and do what you know to be true to you. It goes against my whole being to leave but three weeks ago I knew that it had to be done. Right now things are really good but in my head the doubts are getting bigger. He came home from the trip I sent him on and was loving and affectionate and yes even helpful. My heart wants to think that things will stay this way but my mind doubts his every action. Thursday we have our next session. He is going but not happy about it. Bill, I understand your feelings that you may be losing your love for her. You need to make a list of the things that remind you of your love for her and read over it daily if not more. My thoughts and prayers continue to be with you. I hope the holidays bring you some happiness. <p>Steph

Bill,<p>Well, let me jump in the boat with you. I thought things had been going pretty good myself. But it's beginning to bother me that, outside of sex, my wife gives me absolutely no physical interaction except talking.<br>Last night I was pretty tired and just wanted to share a few minutes with her. She was glued on the computer.<br>I felt the slow boil begin and it was all I could do to hold it back. Finally I said I think I'm ready to leave. She says fine, leave. I'm mad now and tell her about how she never gives me as much as a squeeze of the hand. And I knocked a cereal box off the counter. <br>When I got home tonight she didn't do much and I stayed away from her. Finally she told me she didn't want to argue tonight, and that she didn't want sex. I said that I haven't said a word so far tonight. But then I said I would be very happy to trade a week of sex for one day in which I was touched meaningfully.<br>Now we enter the maze. She says she couldn't do that tonight because of last night. She said she would feel fake (oh how they always feel fake)if she did it now, and that when I do what I did that assures it won't happen.<br>Now let me see if I understand this. I don't get the slightest affection if I start an argument - garunteed. But I still don't get it when I pour my heart out to do the right things - and so far that's been garunteed. Am I missing somethng here. <br>There are torures I could deal with better, like being staked out in the desert with moistened strips of rawhide.<br>She said if I felt I was being done an injustice she would pay the rent and I could go. Oh, yea. I can see her paying it and feeling great about me while doing it.<br>I have a wonderful choice; stay home and enjoy the wonderful world of virtual leprosy or leave right before the holiday while my wife pays the rent, burning that into her spirit along with the other delightful stuff she has against me, a flame with a seemingly endless source of fuel.<br>If I only had a third choice, like hurling myself on a live grenade, it would all be so much easier.<br>Forgive my cynicism. I'm just finding it a little difficult to think reasonably right now. Here's hoping we weather this one as well - somehow.

Bill I think that you were didn't really mean it in your heart when you talked about leaving. I don't think you could make it through March with her, if you really felt in your soul that leaving was the solution. That sure is a long time away.....<p>My husband feels so much like you, although he is jealous that you and Bruce have sex more often than we do!!! But he is feeling so alone and I am struggling to find the strength to deal with my pain and confusion, much less helping him with his too.<p>Anyway, good luck. I wish that I could do more for you...... Guess all I can do is listen.<p>Maria<p>

Bruce,<p>Having just ended a day such as yours I have a question for you. Do you ever wonder that if by taking what little they are willing to give that you are setting yourself up to only get that much in the future? I was accepting what he was willing to give and when it seemed to be going well I pushed for a little more and now here we are at step one again. I was just informed that all future couseling session are off. All this because I asked him to help put the kids to bed. What was I thinking? I mean they are my kids and that is my job right. Sorry, I try not to post when this down but couldn't help it after reading Bruces post. I guess it's just the same old question of when do my needs count. <p>Steph

Bruce,<br>The torture ritual is great. Don't worry about being cynical here. I'm so used to it at home, I can deal with it. Let's just try to put our kids first right now. Because, I know if it wasn't for them, I would have left. I go through the slow boil also. As the steam builds, I know that my outburst will be a major love buster. I also know that it is inevitable. <br>Maria,<br>Unfortunately, I did mean it. I can take abuse, and no "I Love You's", and the resentment at me for things she is responsible for. But, the "not trying to stay together" bothers me. We had a topic earlier regarding Love being a choice. It is true. We make choices. And try to succeed in our choice. Failure is a possibility. But, no matter, we have to live with the consequences of our choices. My wife does not choose to work on our marriage. Neither does she choose to separate. <br>Tell your husband that to have a wife that WANTs to work at a marriage, is better than occasional "non-affectionate" sex. Ask Bruce. He wrote <br><<I would be very happy to trade a week of sex for one day<br> in which I was touched meaningfully.>><br>I might add that I would trade a week of sex for a change in her attitude toward me and our marriage.<br>I read about you and other wifes who realize there is a problem, but are really trying to do something about it. Then I look at my wife, who knew there was a problem for years, but refused (and still refuses) to act on it.<br>Steph,<br>I know where you're coming from. Asking a bit too much of them pushes them away. It's that "trying to stretch the envelope" thing. And, when we stretch too far, it snaps back. Usually in our faces. We were originally supposed to start joint counseling in November. But, as I brought it up, she refused. And still does. She admits to me that as I push more for it, she will reject it more. This list of things I love about her is quite long. But it appears that most of those traits have disappeared, or are suppressed. If they don't return, will I still love her, or just the memory of who she was?<p>To everyone,<br>I speaking to a good friend, he reminded me that this time of year is going to make things worse, not better. We are used to having a holiday season where we have our loving family around us. We have great memories of this. It is natural to want those times back. Well, maybe next year.

To Bill, Bruce, and everyone else here.<p>((((((((( HUGS )))))))))<p>We all deserve them.<p>Bill,<p>You are right. This time of year is seeming to make matters worse. I just pray everyday to make it through. You bring up an interesting point about the traits you loved in your wife. If they are gone is it just the memory you love? I don't know the answer to that. I do know that I feel my love slipping away too and it scares me. I worry about becoming like the wifes on here who don't love anymore and don't care and just want to be selfish and worry about their own needs. Oh well. Today is another day and I will push on with a smile on my face if not in my heart. <p>Steph

Steph (and all),<br>I spoke to a friend today who lifts my spirits a lot. He told me that, when I go to bed, take a look at what you've got. Something we should all do at this time of year. A warm bed, health, food, children, etc. Yes, things aren't perfect. But, there are plenty of people out there that don't have it as good as you. There are people without food, or a roof. There are people without jobs, and others who are being impeached (oops, shouldn't have said that ).<br>But, really,<br>tonight, take a look around and see what you have. Go to sleep with a smile on your face.

Bill,<p>Good point, Bill. One that always puts things in a better light. Especially when you think of what would have happened to you or I if we had done what certain impeachable oafs get away with. Or seem to.<br>Just think, he has to live with Hillary. And I'd be willing to bet my life that he ain't gettin NOTHING from her.

Bill,<p>I told my friends of all of the things that I did have to be grateful for, and he agreed that I was lucky to have the things that I do. I keep telling myself that I should be able to make myself happy with those things in my life -- and he reminded me that material things are not what will fulfill the inner longings that are in our hearts. I know he is right, but it sure would be easier if it were just the materials I needed!!!<p>I believe what you and Bruce said about giving up sex for love. He doesn't though!! He still thinks that my refusal to make love if I am not feeling that love for him is selfish of me.<p>We all -- the spouses who are in love and the ones of us who are not -- all of us are begging for an answer to the same frustrating question. HOW CAN ONE SPOUSE'S NEEDS BE MET WHILE THE OTHER SPOUSE'S ARE TOO? If I become more unhappy and frustrated when I need to share affection or make love with my husband to make him happy, then what is accomplished? If he needs to give me space to keep me from strangling in all of these ropes of love and need, then how can he be happy??<p>It just seems so hopeless to me sometimes. If we have to follow the policy of joint agreement, then all we can agree enthusiastically on is that the sun will come up in the morning and that we love our children. How can we rebuild a marriage on that?<p>The Christmas count-down is on at our house. At least the business means that we have less down-time to argue.<p>God bless us, each and every one.<p>Maria

Maria,<p>You ask how your husband can be happy if your biggest need right now is for space. Well, I'll speak from experience.<br>I have given my wife space, proabably not as much as she wants, but definitely more than I ever have. At first I didn't like it but the upside has been that I've spent more time learning things about myself and doing things I never did. My problem is no longer in the giving of space. I've learned how to do that, though I have lapses.<br>My problem stems from not being able to see a closure to it. I can learn to give space or other things if I can see a positive outcome. But when I do these things and see nothing but business as usual that's when the problem starts to mount. I know I should not look for immediate results. But after a time I want to see at least a propensity or leaning of some kind in a positive direction.<br>So the hardest thing for me is to see my wife act the same way she did last month even though I've done my best to provide space for her.<br>As someone else recently said, if I got just one unprompted hug it would go very, very far towards sustaining me. But to keep giving out and get next to nothing in return is something that just can't go on indefinitely.

All,<p>Well, it's been a couple of nights since my outburst. Last night my wife avoids the computer and sits with me on the couch. She asks if I want her to hold my hand. She's not saying it sarcastically, but it bothers me that she has to say it and not just do it.<br>But she did sit with me for a good while. The boys walked by a couple of times and gave those grins that said mom and dad are being "yuky".<br>What am I to make of this. She gives after I get upset, but doesn't really give freely. Is that a good sign? Should I just be happy to get what I get and quit whining? In the past I was so happy when she did this sort of thing, but it would end up angering me that it would be so long before it happened again, which made me feel that the previous time was manufactured.<br>I hate to get into this frame of mind because it's not good to imagine things. But with the amount of feedback I get it's too easy to imagine things. <br>

Bruce, I have been where you are, have felt exactly the same way you do, and know how hard it is to find any glimmer of hope in what seems like a hopeless situation. I want to just tell you to hang on. It is worth it.

Bren,<p>Sounds like you've come through this kind of situation with success. Care to tell me more? If not thanks for the encouragement you've given.

Bruce,<br> I've been through this for what seems like an eternity. It started with his saying, after 14 years of marriage, that he didn't know if he loved me anymore, he ignored me, he completely withdrew and it ended up with me finding out there was another woman (after many months of denial on my part.) I wanted to make it work and tried just about everything. I went through all the same questions in my mind that you seem to have in yours. I read every book, talked to counselors, etc. Well, I'm sorry to say that we did end up divorced this last January at his insistence. As I began to put my life back in order; starting school, reaching out to new friends and even finding someone that I dated a few times, he approached me in May wanting to reconcile. He had finally come to the place in his life where he saw what he was doing and it was very shocking to him. It was difficult to listen after all that I had been through, but God gave me the ability. We have been working hard and have hit more than a few bumps in the process and expect to hit more. We are still not "together" in the sense of living under the same roof or even speaking of remarriage. There is a lot of work that much be done on each of our parts to not return to the same habits, reactions and all that led us to this point. We both make mistakes but the love we have for each other and our children and the fact that we are BOTH finally willing to work on it will make all the difference.