Hi folks,<BR>It occurred to me this morning that there really aren't alot of resources for people who cheated or have been abusive and want to change.<P>When I first came here to MB, most of my "therapy" involved helping other people understand why their spouses cheated. Still is to some degree. However, I've been cheated on before. A great deal. So many of these books paint betrayers to be sick, mentally ill. Basically, a total [censored] up. I don't believe that. As a matter of fact, I think that if I truly did allow myself to believe that, I'd be even MORE likely to cheat in the future. It would be like, well, I'm a loser anyway, why not?<P>My ex husband abused me a great deal the last year or two of our marriage. After finally realizing that I didn't deserve this treatment (no matter what he thinks I did), I find that I've become an angry person now, alot like him. There is a pattern of those who were abused to become abusers. I was a betrayed, now I'm a betrayer. I don't want to hurt someone else, or verbally abuse, someone the way my ex did to me. <P>I think people who have been cheated on don't believe they can ever do that to someone else, remembering how much they were hurt. I used to think the same thing. <P>So, does anyone know of any books that are specifically written to help betrayers or abusers? I'm buying the verbal abuse book mentioned by another poster. I think that will help me be less angry about what my ex did. Still, I want to make sure I don't become like him.

Mornin' Student,<P>I am in the same place you are, as you know, first betrayed (several times) then betrayer. Two books that have helped me tons are:<P>The Anger Workbook<BR>Forgive and Forget<P>Neither is written to "betrayers" per se, but both deal with unresolved hurt and anger. The second one, in particular, has changed my views on being able to forgive the unforgivable, or those who don't want or deserve forgiveness. Very freeing stuff.<P>You make a very valid point about...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>There is a pattern of those who were abused to become abusers. I was a betrayed, now I'm a betrayer. I don't want to hurt someone else, or verbally abuse, someone the way my ex did to me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Right! Like all abuse, there is the possibility of either becomming like the abuser or the total opposite. <P>For me, I am so damned afraid of infidelity that I freak at the slightest mention of something that could go "over the line"... an example... a man at work said to me, "I had a dream about you last night" and I said, "was it good?"... and IMMEDIATELY when that came out of my mouth I thought, HEY STOP... this feels like cheating (although clearly there is none physically, just these words)... so I said... "More like a nightmare"...laughed, turned around and began to work, and he left. <P>My whole life is colored by the infidelity that has occured in it. Something that could have been "just flirting" to someone else is a BIG RED FLAG to me! My life is forever changed, as is yours, I know. <BR>

Hi NB!!<P>I have Forgive and Forget. They have a really good chapter on self-forgiveness that I love. Yes, that is a great book.<P>I've had the "Angry all the time" book for awhile, which the Anger workbook is partially based.<P>Maybe I'm being too hard on myself. Like you, I'm hypersensitive to any kind of flirting, come-ons, or any situation where my morality might be tested. I backed out of going to NV (which under different circumstances could be quite liberating) because of this fear. <P>Kind of off-topic...<BR>I have noticed a pattern with me lately. If I'm even remotely attracted to a man, all I have to do is THINK about telling him about my life and that is enough to squash it. If our friendship just happens to develop to the point where I do tell him about my marriage, any attraction (no matter how small) is thoroughly obliterated. A couple of my guy friends who know about my life have expressed some interest in me, but I am so NOT INTERESTED. They don't push it, so I'm ok with them as friends. I don't imagine that I could ever really be attracted to someone who knows what I did. I think I'd always feel inferior in some way and I'd always be wondering when they were going to choose the time to shove it in my face, like my ex did. I'd always feel more pressure to "be perfect" in that respect. I'm surrounded by men in my work. I don't want a future sig other always worried that I'm going to cheat on him. I don't know. I understand all the reasons why Harley says total honesty is best, and it does feel good to have guy friends I can talk to about my life, but I'm convinced that the only reason that I CAN talk to them is because I really have very little to lose by telling them. No romance, no "love" feelings, no deep intimacy. <P>Furthermore, my decision to tell a potential guy friend about my life is very contingent on their "unacceptibility" for me as a partner. Once I decide that it's definately friends only, I feel comfortable spilling the beans. Confession has become my preferred method to ensure I do not get too involved with anyone. Funny. Harley thinks it has the opposite effect. Just goes to show you that he doesn't know everything, especially when it comes to experiences he has never gone through himself (i.e. being a betrayer).<P>I guess that is what it boils down to. I don't think I could or even want to feel truly intimate with someone who knows every detail of my past. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited October 14, 2000).]

one book which helped me was <BR>The Dance Of Anger..helps you learn to change how you react to others when they hit that nerve in you that makes you want to scream..<BR>Another is Irregular People..the back of the book says this (paraphrased)<P>Is there someone in your life who really bugs you?? Are you forced-by family ties or other<BR>circumstances-to try and maintain ties w/ this person??<P>chances are they are your Irregular Person..<BR>that person who is blind, deaf, and mute to your deepest needs, no matter how hard you try to communicate..<P>this book has things about...<BR>understand the nature of the irregular person<BR>develop stratigies for coping..<BR>handle negative emotions such as anger, frustration, and bitterness..<BR>keep forgiveness and reconcilliation in your life..<P>this book points the way to spiritual and emotional healing..<P>

Oh <B>Thorned Rose</B>, I have that book too! I have said it before: I am the self-help book QUEEN! That book is also excellent!<P>Another one I like is called "Dancing with the Shadow"... it's about our shadow side... the side we don't want to acknowledge... we all have it, but it's uncomfortable to admit. It was, quite frankly, difficult reading, not because it was hard to grasp, but rather hard to face. If you'd like to work on that dark side of you, that hates most in others what you won't see in yourself, try that book!<P><B>Stu</B>, <P>I still stand by my suggestion that you be completely honest with any man you get involved with, and it's HIS PROBLEM if he can't handle your past life. Your past is what makes you who you are today, you know? Plus, it would be awful to accidently "slip" and say something down the road that you have to explain, and then you seem like a liar. I guess that's what holds you back from having a relationship, eh? The thing is, when you are ready, the right man will be there, and he will love every inch of your life, past and all, because you're in it.

"Plus, it would be awful to accidently<BR>"slip" and say something down the road that you have to explain, and then you seem like a liar. I guess that's what holds you back from having a relationship, eh?"<P>EXACTLY!! What bothers me is that, before, I had fear, I felt something, but now I feel nothing. Fear I could understand. Rationally, I can completely make sense of WHY I was afraid to be honest. You and me both had husbands who had a penchant for throwing up our past mistakes in our faces (even "minor" ones, long before the affair). My fear has lessened, yes, to a point where I can tell others about my life. That is a good thing. However, once I do make that leap, I have no attraction to that man in the slightest. I turn into the "helpful friend", or "sister they never had". And not from their doing. It is from mine. I just am not attracted anymore to a man who knows that I cheated. Certainly rules out any MB romances So, in that way, it is completely irrelevant whether a new man could love me. I can't love him. Pretty sucky situation, huh?<P>Thornedrose,<BR>Thank you very much for the book suggestion. Amazon.com charges alot in shipping and handling. It is convenient, but it looks like I'll be taking a trip to the bookstore soon and stocking up! I hope you are doing ok today. I've been reading your posts on other threads and I can tell you, I know what it is like to live with someone who absolutely refuses to acknowledge your pain. I feel for you, hon. Hopefully, your H will wake up before it is too late. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited October 15, 2000).]

NB,<BR>Here's another thought...<P>Have you ever seen the movie "Shawshank Redemption"? There is a scene where the character "Red" (a man who is serving out a life sentence for murder) is up for parole after 40 yrs in prison. They ask him "Do you feel you are a reformed man"? His answer is something like "The word "reformed" has no meaning to me. It is just a made up word so that people like you can have something to stamp on your little piece of paper. No. All I know is that I'm a different man than the one who committed that crime. I wish I could go back, and have a talk with that man I was and help him". That is how I feel about my infidelity. The word "reformed betrayer" doesn't mean anything to me. It is just a word to make some new man more comfortable about me. In reality, I miss the happy, probably naive, girl I used to be before I cheated. As hard as it was to love myself before, it is damn near impossible for me to love myself now. <P>As it is, I feel like I'm condemned to live out this life-sentence, either by my own hand or someone else's. I do believe in a higher power, and I do believe in my own version of hell for people who commit suicide. So, I don't believe I could kill myself. However, in my darkest moments, there are days I ask God to take me. I don't want to live like this the rest of my life. I don't want to have to prove to myself or anyone else for the rest of my life that I won't cheat. The alternative is to lie, which is equally unpalatable. So, here I am in limbo. My own personal purgatory, if you will. <P>It is times like this that I really hate my ex. I know it would have been a zillion times easier for me to forgive myself if he could have found a way to forgive me. It is times like this that I find myself wishing that someone does the same to him in his time of need. That he does something he needs forgiveness for, and doesn't find it. That he gets to walk the earth the rest of his life feeling like the piece of dirt he spent so long telling me I was. Of course, that won't happen to him, because he has no remorse. These feelings are only reserved for people who have a conscience. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited October 15, 2000).]

Hey Student,<BR> After reading some of your threads, i feel like there are some similarities. Although, my X never physically abused me, though in the beginning of our marriage, his temper made me think that eventually it would lead to that, the hitting walls, telling me one of these times.. I fell into the "don't rock the boat""be the submissive, quiet, Christian wife", his "temper" quieted, but the issues never dealt with. The marriage became one of emotional neglect, very immature physical relationship, never be affirmed, never have him home because he'd rather be elsewhere....you get the picture. I now know that he was getting his needs met obviously elsewhere through out of home activities, Playgirl, with the whatever that goes with that one.(don't want to go there..)<BR>So, when someone else through a friendship, then extreme circumstances of loss, etc. ended up having what I guess this site refers to an exit affair. There I said it. He had me really believing he was divorcing, but obviously not. I'm in the withdrawal stage I guess. Trying to move on best as I can on my own. X has been living with his girlfriend for a year, one of the rebound "see, I'm attractive to someone else,etc."relationships. I find it interesting that though he told our girls that he was going to get married as soon as the divorce was final, that he hasn't yet. It was final last July. I'm trying to "enjoy" whatever that means, this time I have on my own. Sorry it's a down time again.

Hey Stu,<P>Go over to Bill's thread and have a catharsis like I did!! Whew, I laughed, I cried... it felt great!!<P>As far as your thoughts this morning: OH YES, if David could have forgiven me... oh, yes, how much easier it would have been to forgive myself!! Plus, had he loved me back into the marriage instead of punishing me, I would not be divorced in three weeks. <P>That said, now that I am beginning a new life with someone else, I hope and pray that I don't make the same mistakes I made with David. I'm not talking about the affair, because I WILL <B>NEVER CHEAT AGAIN</B>... no, I mean the LB'ing, the taking for granted, the angry outbursts... those things that led the marriage down a rocky road to begin with. <P>I know how you feel, and to be honest, I doubt myself and my decisions daily. I am having somewhat cold feet about this monumental change that is about to occur for me, and I don't know if that's just a normal thing or something inside of me - warning me. I don't like how it feels. I'm a weepy mess all the time lately, and I'm confusing every single person close to me, including my stbx. But most of all, I'm confusing me. I hate this.<P>So, although I often sound so confident to you, I'm not. I understand what you're saying, and wonder if my total honesty at all costs is just wishful thinking. I'll keep doing it because it is who I am, but I do wonder.<P>Love you, Sheryl

Hey TS,<P>First of all...are you really going to back out of the Nville trip?<P>No need to be scared...We are all friends here...Ok....Most of us are...LOL<P>As far as this threads line of thinking...I really admire how you guys can put your feelings into discernable words. I'm getting there. I know how I feel and don't shrink from it but I still lack in verbalising alot of em.<P>I can understand your fears. I'd like to think I could handle a potential suitor and all there baggage, even if it included cheating. After all I'm smarter than your average bear, right? I've come to this site and learned all I can. I understand what and why and how people betray. I also know that the betrayed in most cases have to own alot of the situation that led to the cheating.<P>Honesty is hard I know. How's this for a for instance...<P>How would you feel should you meet a guy that your interested in. You go through all the BS and chit chat of getting to know each other....And he says...I need to get honest about my past....Only a few short years ago I was a junkie. I smoked pot all day everyday, I drank most everyday, I ate whatever pills were offered to me, I sold a 1/2 pound of weed every week to my network of pushers, I dabled in some cocaine sales, and did it as often as I could, I stole money from whomever left some laying around and if I found their wallet well, LSD was my favorite drug and I did it as often as I could, I got busted for possesion of alot of LSD and pot, had friends that killed, raped and robbed people and was ok with it!<P>But that's all in the past, I'm now clean and have to go to meetings at least 3 times a week so I won't relapse. After all I don't want to live that way anymore. God forbid I should use again! I'll be right back to my old lifestyle.<P>This is my fear! That is my life. Past present and future. My skeletons! But you know what when the time comes I'll share everylast bit of that because if she is really worth it it is worth it for me to open up and be vulnerable. If she gets scared and runs, her loss. I know who I am and my experience and pain have been the best teachers I've had.<P>I know deep down my heart is now pure. I have the skills to avoid lifes pitfalls. I've learned my lessons and choose not to repeat the mistakes I made. I think you are of this midset too. I have a couple of pamphlets, ones is titled the triangle of self obsession. It tells how we need to move from resentment, anger and fear to acceptance, love and faith. The other is title self acceptance, a real toe crusher!<P>My point is this...In order for me to move on have to get ok with myself. When I ask someone to forgive me I don't expect forgiveness. I do it to acknowledge my wrong to myself, and state mine own willingness to change. Make sence?<P>Anyhow, I do hope you come to Nville and meet everyone. Tell you what, I'll have those 2 pamphlets with me.<P>Love Ya,<P>Bill<BR>

Hi Bill,<BR>Well, you could have described my second ex. He too was a major druggie before I met him. Did just about every drug on the planet (and I mean EVERY drug) except heroin. Smoked pot almost every day throughout high school. Broke into convenience stores at night to support his habit. Continued his habit, and got into mushrooms, acid, coke, the whole thing, in college. He almost overdosed on mushrooms one night, scared him sh*tless, and he stopped. During that time, he cheated on a girlfriend, and visited a prostitute. All of this was before he met me. He confessed to having a drinking problem after that period and "pushing around" an ex girlfriend. <P>You know what? I never, ever, ever brought those things up to him. Not even the times he would get on me about stuff from my past. Stuff I think is pretty stupid, like the fact I had sex with the guy I went to prom with, and a couple of other things. All I would say is "We've both done things we are not proud of. How is it in your best interest to keep beating me up about it?" For years, he was convinced I was out seducing other men. Well duh. I work around all men, and had for a good 10 years before I met him. If any guy at work happened to take an interest in me, he'd be all over me like it was something I was doing to encourage it. After awhile, I just did my best to look as ugly as possible at work to avoid my ex's comments. Wore ugly glasses. Didn't wash my hair everyday. Didn't wear makeup. Ya know what? It still didn't work, cause believe it or not, there were still men who were attracted to me in spite of the "camoflage" I was wearing. I see now that he was slowly killing my spirit over the years. <P>I know something he apparently doesn't know. People, for the most part, rise to your expectations given half a chance. Deep down, I knew that beating him up about his drug history, or whatever, would not help him or me. Dragging him down would only make it more likely for him to repeat those things. To this day, I don't understand how he could continually beat me over the head with my past. For 8 years he did that to me. His jealousy and anger became a self-fulfilling prophecy. To this day, he believes he married a sl*t, I'm sure. <P>What is sad, is that I offered him a fresh life, completely clean from the sins of his past. I totally loved him with all of my heart, and he ripped out mine and stomped on it so that he could feel superior to me. I was just a stepping stone on his path to "success". He never really loved me, he just needed someone to take out his frustrations on. <P>Sigh. Bill, I am really glad you have found a good support network. Just so you know, my ex never did use again (to the best of my knowledge). I'd like to think I had something to do with that, although, I'm not feeling particularly generous at the moment. My father also, has been sober for over 15 years. He still goes to AA meetings occasionally. I think it is just sinking in that this is something I'll have to live with the rest of my life. Hopefully it will become less painful as time goes by. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited October 15, 2000).]

TS,<P>All I can say is your Ex is a real ***hole!!<P>He may not use but he hasn't a shred of recovery. Ther is a big difference too. Abstinance doesn't = recovery, as I'm sure your dad will tell you.<P>I truly believe that in time you will come to grips with the monsters inside you.<P>Be patient!! It will come.<P>Like my signature says....<P>------------------<BR><P>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I know something he apparently doesn't know. People, for the most part, rise to your expectations given half a chance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Remember this, Student, when you're thinking that there's no man out there who will love you despite YOUR history! <P>Hugs, Sheryl

Oh man...The past..the past..the past...revisted again and again and again..ARRRGGGGGGGGGGGGG<P>I was engaged to this man when I WAS 17!!! We are still friends to this day..20 years later!!! But you'd think I'd had sex with him last night the way it sounds coming from my h's mouth..during EVERY arguement. And I haven't seen the man in I guess 7 years..since his mom died..another man I have known just as long..last time I seen him was<BR>when his father died 6 years ago..I went to his fathers funeral..and helped him pack-up his parents house (his mom died the yr before, and his wife was stationed overseas)<BR>I took my kids w/ me..and I still get that thrown up in my face..it's like..get over it already..I went and supported a friend when they needed it..he was an only child..I was close to his parents as well..they were my friends too..but it's like..I went so therefore I had sex with him...it's like sometimes when he says things like that I want to just say.."I WISH I WOULD HAVE" to make the accusations worth it..<P>Even last weekend he said...if either one of them were available today you'd marry them..<BR>I was like..whatever..<P>But, I don't throw up his past relationships..it's like..yes, I am a grown woman and I have a past..your a grown man YOU have one too..get over it already..yes we had sex..YEARS AGO..Yes we are STILL friends..<BR>SO WHAT!!! It shows me they cared more about me than just wanting "sex" from me..<P>GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR<P>And Stu..There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus..Quit beating yourself up over the affair..okay you made a mistake..we all make them..You confessed it..you reaped the consequences already...you don't need to continue punishing yourself..God isn't