<A HREF="http://www.weiner-davis.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.weiner-davis.com/</A> , Divorce Busting is a good book.<P>Also have forums <A HREF="http://www.weiner-davis.com/gateway.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.weiner-davis.com/gateway.html</A> <P>Here's a quote from one of the member's threads, appears that several members work closely with the author, who also replies to the threads, kinda like having the Harley's respond to this forum.<P>"This is a personal attempt at presenting a 'model' or explanation of the phases or steps that are involved in the 'process' just about everyone who posts on this board is experiencing and/or going through. It is a read only thread in that posts will not be responded to. This post should be considered to be under construction at all times.<BR>The acronym DS refers to the detaching spouse ... the one who emotionally and / or physically distances themselves from the NDS, the non-detaching spouse.<P>1. Setup. 2. Bomb. 3. Confusion. 4. Centering. 5. Execution. 6. Completion.<P>1. Setup. The period when the future-DS is not happy with the future-NDS, but the future-NDS, misreading the road signs, is unaware of the dangerous road ahead. This phase involves the behaviors that lead to the emotional/physical detachment of one spouse from another.<P>2. Bomb. The brief, but often devastating phase or period, when the NDS is told by or learns/realizes the DS has significantly detached themselves emotionally/physically. This phase (as well as Confusion phase) is characterized by the NDS using their 'normal' emotions to react to the abnormal words/actions of their DS, i.e., begging and pleading DS to not withdraw, to come back, etc. While such actions are normal and to be expected, unfortunately they do not work to the advantage of the NDS, and effectively serve to 'push' the DS further away. In this phase the NDS does not accept the reality of the situation they are in, or of the steps they must take in order to improve their relationship with their DS.<P>3. Confusion. In this phase, the NDS accepts some of the reality of the situation they are in, but is very confused about what to do and what not to do to win their DS back. In the early part of this phase the NDS is virtually consumed by complete confusion. As the NDS comes to deal with the reality of the situation and to understand the processes that are involved with the words and actions of their spouses — and of themselves — they move away from confusion toward centering.<P>4. Centering. In this phase the NDS deals with the reality of their situation. The most important part of this phase is realization by the NDS their own personal emotional, physical, mental and spiritual condition is essential to the future well-being of both themselves and their relationship with their spouse. The NDS learns and starts to intelligently implement some of what are called the DB principles on this board, thereby increasing the likelihood of achieving their objective of winning back the love of their spouse.<P>5. Execution. This phase is characterized by almost or all of the NDS’s behaviors being based on DB principles, and therefore positive for themselves and their relationship ... regardless of how the relationship may turn out. <P>6. Completion. This phase consists of the 'resolution' of the situation, in whatever form. <P>It is very important for the person experiencing the pain of separation and withdrawal of their spouses to get through Phases 1 - 3 as quickly as possible ... the sooner they are in Phase 4 ... and even more so in Phase 5 ... the higher the likelihood they will be successful in winning back their spouse."<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>I am in this situation for a very good reason, it just took time to get over my own self-pity and understand why.

Here's an excerpt from the first chapter of her book, actually, it is the first chapter. Never mind the first part of my statement, I don't. Actually, I should just re-write this as I haven't hit "Submit Reply" yet, but this is more fun typing about a whole bunch of nothing. Well, it isn't actually about nothing, it is about something, so really it's something about nothing, does that make sense? I thought so. <A HREF="http://www.weiner-davis.com/divbustintro.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.weiner-davis.com/divbustintro.html</A> <P>------------------<BR>I am in this situation for a very good reason, it just took time to get over my own self-pity and understand why.

I'm kinda curious here, I wonder how long I can keep a thread going by myself? Is there some sort of record that I need to be aware of? I wonder what I'll talk about..............Is it me, or is it quiet in here? <P>------------------<BR>I am in this situation for a very good reason, it just took time to get over my own self-pity and understand why.

Still Praying - if you found Divorce Busting interesting reading - here are two other books that cover much the same thing, explaining how one spouse detaches, doesn't tell the other their intentions, doesn't work to improve the situation, but doesn't leave, either until later, either when they are more sure or someone else comes along. Read "Uncoupling" (can't remember author) and "Crazy Time" by Abagail Trafford. Both are excellent books. Also, "Private Lies" by Frank Pittman III is one of the most interesting books I have read about infidelity, which a lot of betrayed spouses here have read and recommend.<p>[This message has been edited by Lady M (edited October 18, 2000).]

LadyM,<P>Just curious. Have you actually read divorce Busters and had an opportunity to apply it's principles to everyday life? If so, what'd you think? I am currently reading it, and to me, the best chance seems to lie in a combination of "Divorce Busters"/Weiner-Davis, "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"/Gray, "The five Love Languages"/Chapman, and "His Needs Her Needs"/Harley priniciples. I think that by understanding all of these different ideas in combination, one should be able to create almost a perfect marriage. Now, if she only gives me the chance... <P>------------------<BR>I am in this situation for a very good reason, it just took time to get over my own self-pity and understand why.

Still Praying - Yes, I read "Divorce Busting" right after my H walked out. I have also read many of John Gray's books and have found them very insightful. Unfortunately, in my case, nothing I said or did made any difference - my H had already made up his mind long before he gave me any indication that he was going in the direction of ending our marriage. He "gaslighted" me - telling me he loved me and wanted our marriage to work when in fact he wanted no such thing, but was waiting until he found someone else he considered worth leaving me for, and worth giving everything up for. I think that if the NDS can become aware of the DS feelings before the DS has reached the point of no return, there is a chance that the marriage can be saved. However, if the DS has been deceptive about their feelings and the NDS is totally blindsided and is not prepared and is emotionally so devastated that they cannot not take quick action, the chances for sucess are limited. Add to the mix an affair by the DS and the chances are even lower, as the DS spouse now has another reason to trash the marriage. If there is no one else, I think the chances are much higher for success.<P>I, too, pray that your wife will give you another chance. As Frank Pittman says, if a marriage is not a danger to life and limb, it is probably worth trying to save. After all, you have no guarantee that the next person will be any more compatible once the chemistry of romance has worn off. People who are unhappy in their marriage and feel that they can make themselves happy by trading in their partner for a new (more suitable) one are sure to be disappointed. These people try to find happiness by changing everything about their lives, hoping to find happiness. However, this still leaves the one thing most important unchanged - themselves. Each person is the most important determinant of their own happiness. Merely changing partners, locations, or lifestyles will not magically bring happiness. Not in and of itself, anyway, unless they are willing to also do the work of looking within themselves to see their own contributions to their unhappiness, and the relationship was in fact so bad and so unfixable that it was the most contributing factor. Just some rambling, random thoughts! <P>I know you said that infidelity was not a factor in your separation, but you might still want to read Frank Pittman's book - he has some very interesting observations on marriage, committment and the nature of people and the reasons why they decide that their marraiges are unsaveable.

Lady M,<BR>Thank you, I will seek out work by Frank Pittman.<P>No, there is no infidelity that I know of, but I wish I would have known what I do now the day she walked out. She still had a stron emotional attachment to the marriage, if not to me, and after 3 1/2 months she has settled into a routine in life and her new apartment. I think that if I would have given her space initially, I would have been above 90% for getting her back, but now I think it's realistically between 50-60%.<P>Um, if you'll call her for me and tell her what you think, I'll send you a dollar?!?! <P>------------------<BR>I am in this situation for a very good reason, it just took time to get over my own self-pity and understand why.

Still Praying - Has she told you anything definite about why she is so unhappy and willing to throw everything away? If she has, are these reasons valid, or are they vague and make little sense? If they are valid, I would suggest (if you have not already done so), that you tell her that you love her and want your marriage to survive and ask her to tell you realistically what she would require of you in order for her to try again. If what she asks is reasonable, tell her honestly whether you can agree to it or not. If she gives vague answers, or is unable to tell you what she would reasonably require, or if her requests are unreasonable and/or require you to do things that you are reasonably unable to do, I would begin to suspect that she is not being entirely honest with you, and that you should look deeper for what is going on. Many people here have been told by spouses wanting divorces that there was no one else involved, but it later came to light that there WAS someone else. I pray that this is not true in your case, but be prepared for the possibility.

Lady M,<P>I really don't think that anyone else is involved. Most of this is based on conversations that I've had with various friends of hers, they think she needs a break in life. She also isn't the type to do anything like that, I could be wrong, but I really don't believe that she would while we were still married, it's been 4 months and she hasn't filed, doesn't talk to me or anyone else about doing it.<P>She has been depressed for years, even before I met her. This latest episode of depression may have been a culmination of a number of things: Past childhood abuse, empty-nest syndrome, and MLC. She became very depressed last fall, and asked me to leave for a month. She was heading towards the same depression this summer and left.<P>She doesn't know whether or not she wants to try again, as it failed last year, and she isn't convinced that this time will be different. <P>Our problem with dating or working on this is her schedule. After switching jobs for 2 years, she finally settled as a trauma nurse in an E.R., working 3-1:30 (nights). As with most people who work a similar shift, by the time they get up, it's time to get ready for work again. She picks up additional hours there, as well as in a Cath Lab. She is also the lead nurse in a new air care program in the area, which takes any additional time she has. This is to start Nov. 1st, so she should (hopefully) slow down considerably after that. Basically, in a nutshell, she's working herself to death and we have very little time to see each other.<P>I still have a somewhat positive feeling about the possible outcome, but it isn't as if she works a normal 9-5 job and we are able to spend time together.<P>I'm being somewhat brief, everyone knows that I'm not afraid to type, but I've been working on the computer for a project tomorrow, and I'm tired and hungry.<P>Feel free to offer any advice or ask any additional questions, I'll answer anything.

Still Praying - why did it fail last year, and is she being treated for her depression?<P>It could be that she is burned out. But, if the kids are gone, she should be feeling less pressure from at least that area. If she refuses to get treatment for her depression, I'm not sure if there is anything you can realistically do at this point, except wait it out, and see if, once her schedule eases up, she will be less stressed out. Until she gives you something concrete to go on, there doesn't seem to much that you can do. Could the creation of that catch-22 be deliberate on her part? People who have already made up their mind to end their marriages will not let the spouse meet any of their needs. The fact that she has not filed yet is not really an indication either way. Lots of people emotionally divorce their spouses, but don't get around to the legal divorce until sometime later down the road. I don't want to depress you, but just be prepared.<P>Best Wishes - Lady M

Lady M,<BR>I think that there are several reasons that it failed before. The separation wasn't long enough to change me. I didn't educate myself as to what the true problems were and how we got to that point. I wasn't away long enough to actually miss and appreciate her. We never kept the communication as open as it should be, and I probably changed back into the old me within a month or so. This last part is part of her hesitation, and rightly so.<P>She has never sought treatment for her depression, but I feel that this is workable in spite of that. If we can rebuild our marriage the way it should be, she will hopefully trust me enough with her feelings and emotions to discuss times of depression, and trust me enough to help her through it.<P>We had a very nice conversation on the phone last night. We talked about the last several weeks, and that I was giving her space to sort things out, and she said that she does miss me and think about me often, but that she has been busy. I mentioned that I was looking forward to things settling down next week so that we could start spending more time together, and she said that she's hopes so, (positive). I mentioned something about missing seeing her, as I now only have my dog to look at, and he's not nearly as beautiful as her, she accepted the compliment, and said that as long as I find her beautiful, then that's all that matters, (positive). We talked about how when she first left, it was because she didn't think that I loved or cared about her, and that after 4 months with me still waiting and not dating, and never taking off my ring, she's starting to believe that I actually do love her and that my commitment is real, (positive). She is supposed to be off this weekend, and we talked about spending the weekend together as sort of a "trial run", (positive).<P>This conversation gave me a great sense of hope, and now I will take each day as it comes, but continue to live life without her for the time being.

Still Praying - What you wrote in your last post does sound very positive. I hope this continues!<P>I don't mean to pry, but what caused you to start to not appreciate her, and what made you start to appreciate her again?v Was it just a matter of absence making the heart grow fonder? How long did this state last before she could no longer live with it and felt that she had to leave? I am most interested in why people's feelings change, what motivates them, and how we (as human beings) can understand and manage our feelings without letting them ruin our lives or cause us to make the wrong decisions. Must our feelings rule our actions and make our decisions for us, or can our (volitional) actions (especially positive ones) make our feelings become positive?<p>[This message has been edited by Lady M (edited October 25, 2000).]

Lady M,<P>Feel free to ask anything that you may want, I'll answer everything with honesty and openess.<P>I guess part of the problem is that I met her the day I turned 21, she was 29 and had previously been married. Up to this point, the longest relationship that I had in life was 3 months, and of course this has been 12 years. <P>I was spoiled by my mother as a child, and also followed my father's actions in life, my role model, of course. I was a very selfish, self-centered, egotistical, and judgmental person. This description of myself probably offers some insight as to how I could take her for granted and not show enough appreciation.<P>It took me a little over a month of separation to finally start looking at myself as the problem in the marriage. I always thought I was perfect, so why would I even consider my own faults initially? With the Lord's help, I started to examine myself. Humbled myself. Learned about emotional needs. Learned what love actually was, and learned that the world doesn't just revolve around me. Learned that I am far from perfect, so I have no right to judge people or their actions. I am now a completely different person, although I will admit that some of my past traits periodically surface, but that's to be expected, to a point. The appreciation for her evolved over time, I appreciate life and people in general in a different way than before. I did some soul searching as to whether or not I actually loved her and wanted to be with her. I do love her, and I appreciate what we had in the past and what we could have in the future as far as our marriage goes.<P>As for her, here is my hypothesis. As I mentioned, she has always seemed to be somewhat unhappy, don't know whether or not it's a full-blown depression, or just a general unhappiness in life. She has stated recently that she doesn't feel as though she deserves to be happy in life, this is possibly a long term effect of abuse. She has probably been somewhat unhappy in the marriage for years, but a series of events last year may have triggered what just happened. All 3 of her children became independent and didn't need her as much anymore, commonly referred to as an "empty nest" syndrome. She also turned 40, and probably realized her own mortality and started to evaluate her happiness. These two things, combined with her hopelessness in our marriage, probably triggered a need for a change in her. With the children gone, she probably felt no reason to stay in the house, what for? Maybe it's a reminder of the emptiness in her life. She has stated several things that may give you additional insight as to her feelings: she felt that she did everything in the marriage and was unhappy, so whay shouldn't she just do it on her own? She also told me that day that she left that she didn't feel that I loved her or cared about her, that our marriage would never go past this point, an indication to me that much of this is about how she thinks that I feel about her.<P>In hearing about why I think that I got to this point, my signature may have more meaning to you.<P>------------------<BR>I am in this situation for a very good reason, it just took time to get over my own self-pity and understand why.

Still Praying - the person that you were before describes my ex-H perfectly. He could never see how his behavior undermined our marriage either. I would like to write more on this subject, but will have to postpone, as I have access only at work, and must leave work on time tomorrow. I will write something more on Tuesday. I understand completely how your wife felt - I, too, felt neglected, and not cared about for such a LONG time. My prayers are with you. Have a peaceful weekend. Best Regards - Lady M

Hi,<P>I read Divorce Busters and found a counselor who used those principles when my STBX pulled his surprise divorce stuff 2.5 years ago. We went to 3 counseling sessions, and that was it. I really do think now that we never went into the serious issues, that H stayed withdrawn and emotionally detached. After reading your thoughts on how you acted, Still Praying, and how Lady M felt when her exH acted the same, I feel like I was reading my story. <P>I've hoped in these 3 months my H has been gone, that his fog would lift, but it isn't, so we are divorcing when it should have been someting that could have been saved. One of these days he might realize what he lost, but it will be too late, for he's already slowly killed what I used to feel for him.<P>Still Praying, you are still dedicated to working things out, and it sounds as if there have been some positive steps... I will keep good thoughts going for you. I like to hear of the success stories and hope yours becomes one.<P>Lori

Still Praying - I forgot that today is Holloween - can't stay late after work to post - got to get home to hand out the candy!! I will write more tomorrow.<BR>Happy Holloween!!!!!!<BR>Regards, Lady M

Okay.<P>I'll hear from you then.

Still Praying - I just wanted to write some more about how I can understand how your wife felt, because my H neglected me and treated my shabbily as well, but I'll bet it was worse that how you treated your W.<P>When we met, I thought he was the kindest, sweetest, most gentle man I had ever met. He was kind, understanding and seemed so different from most men. He was the one who pursued me, as I was reluctant to get involved as I had just left a bad relationship. However, we first became friends and his kindness and gentle, somewhat shy nature won me over. We were married, and apparently, shortly thereafter is where the problems started. I tried to keep our marriage on track, did everything I could to please him, and pretty much let him have his way (probably my first mistake). As the years went by, he began to pull away emotionally and sexually. When I would protest his lack of involvement, he would reassure me that everything was fine, that he loved me, and wanted our marriage to work. He would then change his behavior and become his (I thought) normal, loving self. As the years went by, these periods of sexual withdrawal became more frequent. By the last 7-8 years of our marriage, he could only manage to have sex less than 5 times per year most years. The last two years, maybe once or twice. He was also a big spender - he loved electronic "toys" and also plays the guitar, and was always buying himself the lastest thing - musical equipment, video equipment, etc. Most of these purchases were made without my knowledge or consent. I always felt that I could not afford to buy myself the things I wanted and needed, because after all, one of us had to be responsible. So I allowed myself to be deprived - emotionally, sexually, and financially, out of love for my H and the desire to keep our marriage together, as I loved him very much. Everytime I complained, or asked him to accompany me for counseling, he would say that there was nothing wrong, and reassure me of his love and committment to our marriage. Needless to say, after years of being "gaslighted" I was totally depressed and demoralized, but unable to admit even to myself that my H was not acting in a loving way, and that I deserved, as his wife, to be treated better. I forgave him all of his bad behavior, and loved him in the face of his unkindness and neglect, praying that the man that he had been when we met and married would somehow "come back".<P>In his defense, I will say that he did make sure we had a nice home - we started out in a small condo and when we were married three years, bought a large townhouse, and then, after seven years of marriage, moved into a very nice house, and spent the next few years remodeling and redecorating, doing all the work ourselves, which we both enjoyed. We also were involved in the Folk Group at Church, and also sang together in public as a duo, and he later formed an acoustic duo with a friend, which I wholeheartedly supported.<P>However, mostly everything was always about him, and his family. My family lived further away then his, so we always spent holidays and a lot of vacations with his family. In 17 years of marriage, we spent Christmas with my family only twice. His parents retired to CA and he spent large sums of money taking trips to see them, sometimes alone and sometimes we would both go, as he made arrangements for these vacations without clearing it with me. We really only had two vacations alone together.<P>In 1990, we found out that he was sterile. He never really had talked to me about having children before, except in passing. I was not desperate to have a child, and would have been happy either way, as long as it was the right decision for us, and I had already accepted that since it had not happened, it probably would not, for whatever reason. When he found out he was sterile, and I was not totally devastated, he accused me of not wanting a child. He then began to pressure me to "give" him a child. However, we were $40,000 in debt thanks to his spending. Adoption and assisted means were beyond our financial reach. It was around this time period that he had, unbeknownst to me an EA with a woman he met through his work (I did not find this out until after we separated). Apparently she was going through a divorce, and was really just looking for a sympathetic ear and friend. After this, I think he had emotionally divorced me, but stayed out of convenience, not wanting to give up the house and everything else, and not having anyone else in the picture. It was at this point that the neglect and emotional blackmail began to escalate even further. Unfair criticism, coldness and cruelty became a daily occurence. Our marriage now became predicated on my "wanting and getting a child" for him. He tried to pressure me into selling our home, so that we could pay off the debt and then get into more debt to adopt or pursue artificial means of conception. In August of 1996, he met a woman through his work who had been separated from her H for 9 months. Needless to say, she told him how she understood his need to have a child, because she had a five-year-old herself (how convenient). They began their affair within about a month of their meeting. Three days after Christmas he told me he had to move out so he could find out why he was so unhappy, and that he couldn't stay with me because I didn't "feel the same way" he did about having a child. I suspected that there was someone else and that it was probably the woman he had worked with on a project at work the last few months. My suspicions were proven correct right before he moved out, when I found out his new place was right around the corner from where she lived. He continued to deny having an affair for the next month, until he could deny it no longer, as he was in public with her all the time.<P>After this, he acted so self-righteous about everything, as if his desire for a child that I could not "give" him made his behavior acceptable. After all, she "felt the same way" he did, and already had a child that he could "play daddy" with. He told me that he had wanted to leave me for at least 10-12 years, and only stayed because he was waiting for me to "change my mind" about having a child.<P>He walked out of our home, took half of everything, and refused to help me out financially. He left me with a car that was about to break down. He took 2/3 of the household income with him. I took him to court five months after he left and he agreed to pay spousal support right before we were to go in front of the judge.<P>In July he called me in a panic, wanting to talk to me. He said he was afraid he had AIDS because her H was a known drug abuser. (Her second H, the father of her child). He begged me to go with him to our doctor, to get tested, which I did. He cried, apologized, and asked if he could come home, try to reconcile, and go to counseling. Being still so devasted by his affair and his walking out, I told him I didn't know, I would think about it. It was what I had prayed for, but I was afraid of him changing his mind. Three days later, he comes over and says he has changed his mind, that he is staying with her, and recounted to me the many ways I failed him as a wife. Needless to say, this did me in. At that point, I came very close to having a total breakdown. I had been on medication since he left, and was just at the point where I was staring to feel stronger. This, however, set me back, and sent me almost over the edge.<P>It is now almost four years later. He is now married to the OW. I have just, within the last year, started to really feel joy about life again, thanks to wonderfully supportive family and friends, and finally coming to the realization that his infidelity and desertion were about his selfishness, not about my failure as a wife. His excuse that he did what he did because I did not want a child, was just that, an excuse. My only sin was that I loved my H more than I wanted a child, and that I was afraid to have a child with a man that I feared did not love me. He thinks that the world revolves around his wants and needs, and that what he did is perfectly acceptable. It is so painful to realize that the person you have loved most in the world is not who you thought he was, but someone selfish and unkind, and unrepentant as well. The damage to my self-esteem, not just from his affair and desertion, but from his long-standing neglect and lack of love, has been enormous. I gained 40 pounds over the course of our marriage, and was depressed and ill a great deal of the time. Within a year of his emotional abuse being removed, I lost 40 lbs., and have continued to have great improvements in my health. Feeling unloved, unwanted and unimportant to the person I loved most almost totally destroyed my physical and emotional health. Why I did not have an affair, I do not know, except that I always knew that not only was it wrong, but it would not solve my (our) problems. You remarked in one of your posts that one can never know what one will do until tested, but I can tell you, I was tested, and I did not make the wrong decision of having an affair, even though it would have been easy to do so had I wanted to, and no one would probably have blamed me, as my marriage was almost totally celibate, and not by my choice.<P>Sorry this has been so long. If your wife feels as totally hopeless and helpless as I did, it is going to take some time for her to get back on track. It will be hard for her to believe that you mean what you say, and that you have changed. If my ex-H came to me and said he had changed, and that he really still loved me, I would not believe him for one minute, considering everything he has done. There is no way, to my mind, that you can love someone and treat them the way he treated me. The sad thing is, there was nothing really "wrong" with our marriage, except for his refusal to participate in it, his refusal to value it, and his refusal to make a true committment to it.<P>I pray that you will continue to be strong, and continue to show your wife, by your words and actions, that you love her and are committed to living out your life with her at your side. I would have given anything if my H would have truly "woke up", repented and admitted his mistakes and unloving behavior, before it became too late, before my ability to trust and respect him was gone, even though I still loved him. The memory of the promise of our love that was destroyed will always haunt me, even though I know I am better off without him, and that he did not deserve the love I offered him, but that he rejected so callously. The pain of this loss will be with me always. Please do not let this happen to you and your wife, if there is anything you can do to prevent it.<P>My prayers and best wishes are with you.<P>Regards - Lady M <P>[This message has been edited by Lady M (edited November 01, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Lady M (edited November 02, 2000).]

Lady M,<P>That's quite a story, I feel for you as you have been through a lot. It's good that you are able to finally get on with life and go forward.<P>A majority of the problem in our relationship was my taking things for granted, although I don't feel that I took advantage of her. I, like most people I talk to, never realized how fragile a marriage can become or how things can slowly unfold, very gradually over time.<P>I am still standing by her with the hopes of working things out, but this is sort of a "hell week" with the start of her new job. I still have a tendency to swing to and frow emotionally, sometimes I just want it to be over, others not, but with all that's happening with her career, I need to give it some more time.<P>I sent her a poem on Tuesday, posted in "poems", that she said surprised and touched her. I rolled it into a scroll, tied it with a red ribbon, put it in a small box lined with tissue paper, and surrounded it with Hershey's Hugs and Kisses.<P>I'll just continue to wait and see what happens, as I need to show her my commitment now more than ever.<P>I may write more later, but it's early and I need to get going.<P>Take Care.<P>------------------<BR>I am in this situation for a very good reason, it just took time to get over my own self-pity and understand why.