I'd like to ask a question that our minister asked me after our breakup. He asked, "without prying, how was the physical part of your marriage?" I didn't feel that he was prying and without going into detail, I was able to answer his question. I'm wondering now how indicative sexual issues are in terms of other problems in a relationship.<P>Our physical relationship hadn't changed much over the last 5 years, albeit on the low side for what I would assume a healthy couple in their 20's to be, but it hadn't changed. We were physical probably an average of 4 or 5 times per month and I can't remember when we made love more than twice in the same week in the past 5 years. What I really didn't understand is that when we were 'together' we were great. Our bodies worked well together and it always seemed pleasurable for both of us.<BR> <BR>Looking back now, I was the one usually initiating the contact. I'm a guy and was basically wanting it every night, but her sex drive seemed to be lower than mine. Feeling that sex was only a part of relationship, I never put that much emphasis on it and was just happy when she was in the mood. The funny thing is that she would usually make the comment that 'we should do this more often' yet when the next opportunity came around, she wasn't in the mood.<P>When she left, I asked her if there was a problem with us physically that was driving this decision and she said told me no, in fact that part was great.<P>Could I have been so blind that for 5 years my W was unhappy emotionally and by her not wanting to make love that often was a warning sign that something was wrong?<BR>

I <p>[This message has been edited by ShellHT (edited October 25, 2000).]

jayhawk,<BR>The physical part is only one aspect. I think it can be an indicator, but there are lots of other indicators too. Me and my ex had great sex and lots of it. We did "something" almost every night. We both inititiated. The sex was probably one of the best things about our marriage, and something even my ex says he will miss.<P>Part of the reason why it stayed so good, even with all of the things that were going on outside the bedroom, is because that was the one place my ex was consistently nice and thoughtful. I'd say the only "indicator" for me was that it became increasingly harder and harder for me to reach the big "O" as my trust in him was eroded over time. <P>I guess what I'm trying to say, is that there isn't really "one" thing. Me and my ex had great sex and we are divorced now.

I don't think there is a "normal" answer to <BR>whether or not you're doing it right or frequently enough. If both partners are happy with once a month or once a night, then why try to mess with that by saying they are not normal?<P>Do I think the minister's question was valid? Yes. Sexual issues *could* be a problem, but based on what you said, that doesn't seem to be the case in your situation.

ShellHT-<P>Reading your post took me back emotinally to the earthquake of what we all seem to have been through and also the reflection of what my ex-wife and I both contributed to our ending.<P>What you explain almost is a direct mirror of what existed in my marriage. Our gap and the lack of the sensual and emotional connection in our marriage became an 8 year problem and I like your husband thought that looking outside the marriage was at the time the answer...obviously I was wrong and my wife filed for divorce immediately.<P>Your examination and looking at yourself took a lot of hard work...something many us find hard to really do. Your partner someday will understand really how lucky he was to have someone who seemed to be open to try and heal the hurt, hope for forgiveness and hang-in for the marriage and try to understand a way to find a way back to invest in this part as well as the rest of your relationship.<P>You are a rare Gem!<P>mr rlk

Reading things like this thread makes me realize how in the dark and in denial I was for so many years. It really saddens me to think that my husband was so lacking in honesty. It seems my whole marriage was a lie. And I should have known by the lack of ..., well the lack of so much.

Cinderella-<P>Do not be too hard on yourself or your husband...you both probbly did the best you both could at the time! The quote below really speaks to how hard it really is for couples to understand their emotional needs... and communicate them in a loving way...Take a look!<P>mr rlk<P>“Self-maintenance, that is, pulling your own emotional weight in a relationship, is a key factor in keeping relationships going. However, if you are to pull your own emotional weight in your relationship, it is essential that you are able to identify your needs. . .a task that for most people, is not easily done.”<P>Peter M. Rosenzweig, Ph.D.<BR>Department of Psychiatry<BR>Northwestern University<BR>Chicago, Illinois<BR>

Prior to our marriage, my x and I enjoyed sex everytime we were together which was limited to every couple weekends as we were 225 miles apart.<P>After we got married, things were okay for awhile and thrn problems started cropping up. X started to develop pain and tightness. This compounded my problem of being quick on the draw.<P>We went to a sex counselor and he told us that he thought that neither one of us were comfortabe with sex and that we were probably a good match in this dept. <P>So after that I had to make sure x was relaxed and make sure I put her in the mood. <BR>We had some exercise for me to slow me down but we never did them. X said she was satisfied.<P>Over the years, all spontenaity left. We had kids, she was working every other weekend.<BR>Soon the only way she could relax was witha glass or two with wine. I some how became inept at even putting her in the mood.<P>Sex became pretty routine. I would give her the O manually and then she would give me one thru penetration, but it was always quick. The sex started dwindling because of work, PMS, and her period. <P>In looking back, I think the only reason we were having sex was fro the release. I don't even think it was for each other. I realize now that I let myself become conditioned. IF she didn't have a wine glass in her hand, I didn't bother. If she was PMSing I didn't bother. In 1999 we were down to once every 6 weeks.<P>The sad part was that we never discussed the problem. I told her one or two times I was feeling used and she would respond with that I wasn't being romantic and putting her in the mood.<P>Again in looking back I have to wonder, why did we start having problems after we were married? Was that when she realized she wasn't in love with me? Did she stay then just to fulfill the marriage vows? <P>Were the kids an attempt to find happiness? Then did she just give up on the marriage. Is this why she had an exit affair?<P>I guess I am in the same boat as you JH. A final slam my x gave me was when she filled out the EN questionaire she said she desired sex 3/week. I don't remember the time we ever had it that often.

Thank you mrrik for the kind words.<p>[This message has been edited by ShellHT (edited October 25, 2000).]

Shell, <BR>I, too had issues with this...my x never said anything to me until after but he had a very strong sex drive, and when we were engaged, we couldn't get enough of each other. As kids came, pressures of work and life in general left me not as interested. <BR>Also, my x was not there much for me, either, but I had other things to keep me busy. I had my kids, a job I loved, and a lot of interests.<BR>He also had interests, and I guess I always felt that once the kids were grown, we would have more time for each other. I trusted in our love for each other, even when it didn't feel like much. I married for life. The good and the bad. It was a big mistake on my part. Neither he or I spent much time on each other. <BR>That is why the Harley principles are so important in keeping a relationship fresh and strong. My x looked elsewhere for the love he didn't feel with me. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

Susan-<P>I'm not preaching...but you are looking and working on yourself...that is great thing to do but also very difficult for most people. (Me included) You are doing the best that you can I sense. So...what I learned from my journey that as we all come to hear from the MB site and the Harley's is that in the EN arena and especially in the Sexual area...it is a duality...a two way street. I now know that it was just as much my responsibility to communicate in a loving and caring way my feelings and needs to my partner and to seek win-win solutions as it was her same responsibility to do the same.<P>Do not be to hard on yourself...yes we all have our list...job, kids and other interests and I'm going to believe that I'm like many other MB folks who until the did the EN questionaire really had no idea what they were or that they all do in fact have a rank order for each partner that is a must for each partner to understand. This ignorance on my part I now was a major reason our problems did not get addressed.<P>Shell-<P>Yes...I can relate I believe to how you feel after a long marriage. (18 years as well) and I am sorry...I still can feel the pain you still feel about this earthquake that has hit many of us on this site. Learning to forgive yourself takes a lot of work as well. When you get a chance check out a copy of "Making Peace With Your Past" by Harold Bloomfield, M.D. it can help you look at a path that can start the way to forgving your partner and yourself and help you to start to heal all that you can.<P>Give yourself a little less heavy burden today. We all are influenced by our Family of Origin issues. The impact of how your caregives influenced you as you grew up is not all your fault. The "Imprint" or we all receive as we grow with our parents impacts us all. I understand what you mean...my ex-wife sadly had an upbringing that taught her careing sensually for your mate was a task that was something that had to be done or was for the purpose of bring children into the world and that it was something that a woman just had to face...more like a chore than and loving and caring act...this came out to understand way to long after our 8 years of being polarized and not looking at the EN bank accounts that ultimately added to our failure. Boy...you talk about a hard area to look at in the mirror...Family of Origin is probably one of the most difficult to look back and really look in the mirror to understand.<P>Again...you have made a great journey! Understanding your childhood baggage and getting an understanding of it so it does not impact you or your relationships in a negative way something we all can only hope to understand and accomplish. Again...you are a rare gem. You make me feel like I've only take a half a step on my journey to look at myself and understand my family of origin issues.<P>The best to you.<P>mr rlk<P>

mrk, <P>Thanks for your words.....<P>You know, I have beat myself up over this at times. If I had only been more accessable, if I had only not been tired, stressed out, etc....<BR>But the fact remains that he also did not put much effort into our marriage. I never felt special to him, I always felt like another mother to him, until he wanted sex. <BR>And, he liked beer a lot, and I just was turned off by the smell of it when he did want sex. I really believe his drinking led to some real issues between us, and prob led to him not caring about the marriage and pursuing the affair. <BR>We were maried 17 yrs.....a long time..and I waited till I was 27 to get married. <BR>I do hope he finds the happiness I was unable to give him, though I just don't know..<P>------------------<BR>Susan

Susan...<P>I wish that waiting until you feel older...more mature was proof that one had this whole thing about relationships figured out. You waited until you were 27...I waited until I was 31 and ya know...when I married I had very very little understanding of the Harley EN concept or worse yet...did not practice developing each EN as a priority for my spouse. I was ignorant! In reality...I thought I was making major deposits in the Love Bank...boy was I off base.<P>Remember...If I had only...Stop...You did what you could do...the best way you knew how at the time. You can not beat yourself up over the what if's!<P>Have you tried to see a counselor to help you put healing and closure in your mind after your marriage has inded? You seem to be a very open and upfront person trying to understand what role you played in your marriage not making it...understand your role is much different that placing blame on yourself for the If Only I Had...AND remember that no matter how avearge or below average...good or bad your marriage actually was...it hurts to lost it and have it come apart...grieve your loss. That is different than blaming yourself for where you have ended up and then the punishment of If I Had Only...Be gentle...self care for yourself.<P>mrrlk

mrrik<BR>actually I have forgiven me and alot of people<BR>I try to forgive my H every night so he can wake up with a clean slate in my book.<BR>I am not playing the blame game yes this is his call that is a fact.<BR>I love my H..I think he is going through a midlife crisis...I am going to wait it out...as best as I can. he is totally worth it to me I get tired and down ready to give up but when I calm down there is never any doubt what I will do. <BR>Shell

I am curious too on how to deal with the rejection? My H and I are going through some rough times. In the past we have always enjoyed the physical part of this marraige and both of us have initiated. We are still living in the same house right now and probably will for a while. Sleep in the same bed. I am the one who has caused most of the stress, but am now going to see a counsellor for all of this (he isn't sure what he wants to do with anything). It is so hard for me to be in the same bed with him and not touch him or hold him. I have been trying so hard to show that I want to make this work. Most of all I just want to be held and told that it will all be "ok". And only from him. Am I going nuts??? I can't quit crying or concentrate on anything else right now. Surprised I haven't been fired from work!

Blindsided,<BR>I was having crying episodes myself and storng emotional swings. My doctor prescribed Paxil to help level me off. I can tell a big difference since taking it, even tried to quit recently because I felt so much better, but then realized that it was too soon.<P>My job has been very understanding, but my work has suffered as well. Take care of yourself and be careful.<P>------------------<BR>JH93