On Friday, my wife and I are scheduled to meet with a court appointed mediator to "help" us reach an agreement on physical custody schedule for our son. (In California, this is a mandatory thing when the two people don't agree on a visitation shedule)<P>As I have previously posted, I am dead set on a 50/50 split of the week - hence here is my offer:<P>Mon & Tues - son is with mom<BR>Wed. & Thurs. - son is with me<BR>Friday nites and weekends would alternate.<P>Wife feels this is too disruptive a schedule for a small kid. She vehemently argues that she has been his primary care giver. She is the one that gets up with him when he is sick, gets him ready for school, breakfast, lunches, dinners, bath time, bedtime, etc., while I have had the "fun" stuff like soccer, t-ball, etc. This is all true.<P>I argue that once we have a 50/50 thing in place I'll have to do all that too. She's angry that I'm waiting until now to have pitched in and offered this desire to help with his daily routine.<P>Wife wants me to have son each week on Thursdays & Fridays overnite, with alternating weekends. Hence on my weekend it would be from afterschool Thurs. until Sunday evening. I still say no. I want that extra Wednesday. She feels its too much of a shuffle. That our son would feel like he never has a home being transported two days here, two days there...<P>Any suggestions before the big "mediation date" Friday would be helpful. Am I truely being stubborn? Wife told me last nite my argument over the shuffling was all about my desire to "win" to have "control". Maybe thats somewhat true. She is convinced she wants what is the least tramatic, least inconvienient arrangement for our son.<P>Is there any right thought here????<P>Sorry so long. I'm getting very anxious.

Keep going.....the way I'll see it the judge will give you court appointmented visitation. Every other weekend...period. The mediator will agree with your wife 100% and feel that she's being extremely reasonable. That IS too much bouncing around for such a little guy. So to answer your question. Yes you are being stubborn....and stupid.

Hey BonnieSept - what makes you a child custody expert? I want my son in my life. I've been told by my lawyer that I WILL most likely get the visitation I want. That in this state (CA) judges want to see 50/50 custody. I have even gone as far as to get my supervisor at work to write me a letter stating that I can alter my work hours on the days I have to take him to school. IMHO the mother should'nt always get everything she wants. And jerk or not, I will continue to fight for what "I" believe is in my son's best interest.

WOW!<P>I wouldn't quite have put it like BonnieSept did, but I somewhat agree with your wife that this is a lot of bouncing around for a little boy. Try to think of things from your son's point of view--Monday and Tuesday he has clothes, homework, papers, soccer and whatever with one parent. Suddenly Wednesday and Thursday he is with the other parent. Where did he leave his homework? Are his blue socks at mom's or dad's? His soccer practice is tonite at 4pm, but dad has to work until 6pm--but wait is he at mom's or dad's house on soccer practice night. And when he gets a paper at school for the field trip coming up, how is he supposed to figure out who gets the paper--the parent who's house he's at now or the parent who will have him the night before the field trip or the parent who will have him on the day of the field trip? This is WAY too confusing for a small boy. <P>I understand your desire to maintain a parental role in your son's life, but every other day is too hard. Do you and your X live fairly close to each other and/or the school (you know, some neutral point)? Would it work better to do one whole week at one house and one whole week at the other? This would provide each parent with equal time and parenting, while provide a somewhat more stable situation for your son. There would still be some shuffling, but ya know since you and your X broke up, shuffling is going to be a given.<P>In contrast to what you said in your last paragraph, it does sound to me like your X is aiming for having your son more, and just let you visit on weekends. It sounds to me like SHE is the one who wants control. In a way, I kinda feel like your X has not come to grips with the fact that the consequence of breaking up is only spending half of her time with her son. She hasn't quite accepted the fact that she will no longer have him seven days a week, and that is what is gave up for her "independence".<P>You asked if you were being stubborn? YES! Darn right! And you should be insistent, because your son NEEDS a father. Too often these days, society thinks children of single mothers do just fine. I'm sure many moms try their best, don't get me wrong, but CHILDREN NEED FATHERS. Don't back down. Stand up for your son and your parental rights. Suggest the one week idea and split holidays equally. Good luck on Friday, and stand strong.<P>You're in my prayers,<P> CJ

Uh Faithful Wife;<P>For your info Starting Over is the one who had the affair not his wife.<P>

Uh, TMD, I was just about to say the same thing!!! Maybe folks ought to find out the entire specifics about the situations before they chime in their two cents. Contrary to what faithful wife says, I don't read anywhere in this post that SO's wife is positioning herself to have her son more. What I read is that she seems to be willing to give very liberal timeshare to Dad while maintaining some sort of normalcy and consistency in the little 6 year olds life.<P>

I guess I really don't understand why he posts here. Many people here are betrayed spouses who are not going to be sympathetic. It's like he wants somebody to justify that what he is doing is right. On top of that he comes across as very arrogant and self-righteous. <P>I am sure there are sites where he would get a sympathetic ear but he continues to come here.<P>Hey SO, if your attorney thinks you are gonna get what you want then what's the problem?

I was lead to believe this site is for both the betrayed and the offender. Yes, true I am guilty as charged. But I cannot erase the past and the mistake I made. But I can be the best father to my son. That is why I came here to ask opinions of people who perhaps are going though this custody issue from "both" sides of the fence. I didn't realized I was being offensive. <P>For what it's worth, my past indiscretion was a one time thing and according to my attorney won't mean anything in this state.

My STBX & I are doing alternating weeks. We each get the same amount of time, and our son gets a little more stability. Is this an option?<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again

No, because I normally begin work at 6:45 am and cannot change my hours for an entire week at a time. Besides, my wife would never agree to a week long separation from our son.

SO,<BR>I agree that it will be difficult in having your son move back and forth so much. How far will you and your x be apart?<P>My x lives 2 miles away and it is still a pain in the butt(I can't spell hassal). They are there everyother weekend either Fri to SUn evening or SAT ,morning to Mon morning. They are not there anu particular day during the week because she works differnet days and shifts during the week. She haad them MOn night and dropped them off this morning before school. I don't thinks she worked today but she goes at 7 am tommorrow so she doesn't take them (don't ask me why, she won't take them unless its for the entire night. In over the year she has been gone, she has taken for the evening only a handful of times.)<P>To get back to my point. I have troubel keeping up with there clothes, especially when they are at her place only a night or two later. They tend to leave dirty clothes in their bags and then all of a sudden dump it on me. I have started sending their dirty clothes with them to be done at her place, but it still backs up if I am not on top of it 100% of the time.<P>How is your s going to develop friendships around the neighborhood if he is only around every couple days? <P>I really don't know if there is a "good" solution to this.

I don't know where in California you are, but I have now been through two conciliation court meetings and a custody evaluation in LA County, so here are my insights.<P>The conciliation court functions much differenly depending on what county you are in. In LA, the CC hearing is confidential. The only way a judge will know anything about it is if you reach some agreement. In San Diego, the CC evaluator makes a recommendation to the judge for custody. It is important to find out the procedures for your county.<P>The fact that she has been the primary caretaker will work in her favor. Just because you choose to do it now doesn't carry much weight. My stbx tried that one and the evaluator dismissed it out of hand. But since your son is under 5 (if I remember correctly), the court is supposed to facilitate a strong bond with you, as well. When the child is in school the court seems to like one primary custodian and the other parent gets visitation.<P>I would really suggest that you work it out with the stbx if you can. These evaluators can come up with some pretty wierd stuff. As an illustration, I present my own schedule.<P>The stbx lives in San Pedro, the armpit of Southern California (Of course, I hold no residual anger). I live in a suburb of San Diego. We have two children, a 7 yo boy and a 18 mo girl. It is a 129 mile trip one-way door to door.<P>The schedule for our son, since he is in school, is fairly straightforward. She get him the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and alternating 5th weekends of the month. Plus the usual holiday and summer stuff.<P>Now our daughter, since she is not in school, is a bit more problematic.<BR>1st week: Wed. thru Sun.<BR>2nd week: Thurs. thru Sun.<BR>3rd week: Tues. thru Thurs.<BR>4th week: Wed. thru Sun.<BR>5th week: alternate (not sure what this means, alternate what?)<P>We are ordered to split the driving. Still, this is a minimum of 11 trips a month at 258 miles per, or almost 3,000 miles of driving a month to facilitate visitation and foster a strong bond with her mother, who has basically ignored and abandoned her children since birth. She is doing better now, but it is all show. She intentionally takes her days off when she doesn't have the children, then leaves the kids with a babysitter on the days she has them. I brought this up to the evaluator, and he told me it was none of my business.<P>So, to make a long story longer, settle out of court if you can. Take a bit less to save yourself some heartache.<P>I am not assigning blame, cause I am sure there is enough to go around, but when the two of you decided to get divorced, you gave up certain rights to the state. One of those rights is the ability to see your children whenever you want. Unless you can get it done, the state will decide for you. While the affair will not matter at all, there is still a mommy bias in the court, and that will weigh against you.<P>Good Luck and let us know how it comes out.<P>If you want any more details (yeah, right), you can email me at bmstern@hotmail.com.

Starting Over,<BR>This is a forum for both the betrayed and the offender, and I have to confess, my feelings haven't changed a bit. I realize that you hurt your wife and so do you, but that doesn't change the fact that you should be an equal parent. For the facts of this discussion, your desire to have equal parenting time with your son, it is irrelevant who moved out and who started all this. The facts are: the marriage is broken, the family is split up, and BOTH parents will have to spend half time with their son because of it. <P>I did not mean to imply that the consequences of "your wife's actions" were that she would be apart from her son. But good, bad or otherwise, the consequences of breaking up a marriage and a family are spending only half time with the children. If I were to assume that you, Starting Over, were ENTIRELY in the wrong and your wife was ENTIRELY a saintly wife, the it still all boils down to the fact the when a marriage and family break up, the children pay by only spending half time with each parent. And, to me, whether you had the affair or your wife, now that you have decided to end the marriage, you both should have equal parenting time with your son.<P>My thoughts to you, Starting Over, remain the same. Consider the whole week option. Even if your hours are 6:45am to 5:00pm, there are before-school options and childcares that will drive children to school. It would take some pre-arranging and effort on both your part and your son's part, and since he's so young it may be difficult, but it is not impossible. Look, Starting Over, no matter what arrangement you make regarding custody, it is going to take pre-arranging and effort on your part--who are we kidding? You no longer have a partner to help you out with taking care of these kinds of arrangements. But the effort is worth it. You may feel exhausted at times, but so would a single mom. It's true, you may need to take a few mornings off the first time your son came to stay at your house for a week (to make sure all your pre-arrangements run smoothly), but after that you would have a routine. <P>By the way, I firmly believe this forum is for both spouses: betrayed and offenders. I know there are all kinds of hurt feelings, but I am also wise enough to know that you both contributed to this divorce. You didn't have your emotional needs met, and you probably didn't meet hers either. You love busted her all over the place and she love busted you. Eventually the pain was great enough that neither one of you could put it aside and repair the damage. I can not speak for everyone on this particular forum, but I can say for myself that I am in no position to judge anybody. At the very least, I will do my best to understand your point of view and your fears and concerns. <P>You are in my prayers,<P> CJ

I've been away for awhile,<P>Starting over, this may be one of those situations of "be careful what you wish for, you just may get it."<P>Even by your own admission, you have not been involved in the day to day routine. I don't think you are aware of the ramifications of saying you want to start doing it too.<P>Make sure you are pursuing this for the right reasons. Make sure that you will always put your child's interest first - are you truly committed to splitting the daily routine with your wife? <P>on paper, it looks great to you. Are you prepared to stay home from work when your boy is sick? When you are getting ready for school and work, and you notice he is listless, and find he has a fevor. Or you going to be able to call up your boss at the last minute, and say, you won't be in? Believe me, that is a common part of the daily routine. It happens all the time. Are you going to take him to half the doctor's appointments? meetings at the school? Are you going to take off early on your days when the school calls you that he is ill? What about all the inservice days, and snow days? Are you committed to being a caregiver first, and an employee second? Is your boss going to be understanding? What about if you get sick? Are you up to caring for your child when you aren't feeling well? Are you going to be able to stop work in the middle of something, to go pick up your child?<P>That child has to come first, work can never be more important. This is an issue a main caregiver has to accept. I just don't think you are in a position to do these things, or maybe that you even want to. I am not trying to be sexist here, but most women who remain working, choose careers, or positions that allow for the flexibility they need to care for their family. Are you willing to trade career advancement for the opportunity to be with your boy like that? I did, and would have it no other way. Pretty much every main caregiver makes that choice, without hesitation. Maybe it shouldn't have to be that way, but it is.<P>Think very carefully. It is more than having him in the evenings, and taking him to school. <P>It is quite honestly a choice, of putting him above all else. You must be prepared to do that.<P>I just don' get the feeling that you have thought this through completely, or understand the extent this will impact your entire life. But if you have, I wish you the best. <P>

<BR>SO writes:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Wife feels this is too disruptive a schedule for a small kid. She vehemently argues that she has been his primary care giver. She is the one that gets up with him when he is sick, gets him ready for school, breakfast, lunches, dinners, bath time, bedtime, etc., while I have had the "fun" stuff like soccer, t-ball, etc. This is all true.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What you are hearing is that she is planning to unload the "primary caregiver" card on you in the hearing. Now, I'll be the first to argue that the "primary caregiver" standard is simply a cheesy relabeling of the notorious "tender years doctrine," but the fact is, it still carries weight in family court.<P>As an aside, the "primary caregiver" standard is flawed because it falsely presumes that the "primary breadwinner" is unable to parent equally. At its extreme, it sends the following signal to men: "While married, do not try and maximize your income for the sake of your family. Instead, make sure you are an equal contributor to the primary care of your children, even if that means your family must endure profound economic hardship."<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I argue that once we have a 50/50 thing in place I'll have to do all that too. She's angry that I'm waiting until now to have pitched in and offered this desire to help with his daily routine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your recent conduct won't have much bearing on the court's decision, frankly. Why the anger, though?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Wife told me last nite my argument over the shuffling was all about my desire to "win" to have "control". Maybe thats somewhat true. She is convinced she wants what is the least tramatic, least inconvienient arrangement for our son.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My recollection is that her main complaint was the time you would have to awaken your son, 4:30am wasn't it? And I agree with that part of her argument.<P>The "shuffling" issue is addressed next.<P>Here are four weeks of your wife's proposal:<P>S M T W R F A<BR>-------------<BR>W W W W H H H<BR>H W W W H H W<BR>W W W W H H H<BR>H W W W H H W<P>Here are four weeks of your proposal:<P>S M T W R F A<BR>-------------<BR>W W W H H H H<BR>H W W H H W W<BR>W W W H H H H<BR>H W W H H W W<P>The plans each have eight handoffs every four weeks.<P>The plans each have an average of 3.5 days in residency prior to a handoff.<P>The plans differ in the variance of days prior to a handoff, with your wife's plan having a standard deviation of 1.20 days and your plan having 1.60 days.<P>On the whole, I don't buy the "shuffling" argument.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Sorry so long. I'm getting very anxious.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You should be anxious. You're taking a big risk in this. Morally, I think you should win, btw. As a practical matter, however, you should trade that extra Wednesday for language giving you 50% JPC in a year or two; your wife will doubtless concede that eventually your son can handle the schedule you desire. I'd say ink that date now and make it legally binding and stay out of court. Your downside is a lot bigger than your upside at this point. <P>I would like to echo h.w.'s caution that 50% JPC can be a lot more than you bargained for. You better be up to the task you seek.<P>Btw, I see that my old pals BonnieSept and h.w. jumped on this thread, too. SO, do us a favor and let us know what happened, OK?<P>Bystander

Well, for those of you interested, here is how it went today. Started at 8:30am and it lasted until almost 11:00 am. By the end wife got the schedule she wanted throughout the school year. She accepted my wanting the extra day during the summer vacation period. So, that's how we compromised. Not exactly what I wanted, not exactly what she wanted, but I guess it will work. I just want this divorce thing over.

Well, Starting Over, it sounds like it went reasonably well. I'm sure going into it that you knew no one was going to be happy--but it sounds pretty good.<P>I think there is some wisdom to this option, too. I know that you hate to hear that, but it is really hard for the kids to adjust to not having mom AND dad. It throws 'em for quite a loop. It may be for the best, for your son's sake, to let him have some time to get used to this new way of life.<P>I'm glad to hear you came through it, too. YOU. I know this really sucks, doesn't it? You know what? I'm proud of you for standing up and being a father. I'm proud of you for being adult and mature about all this. I think, this weekend you should resign from adulthood and head toward your nearest rootbeer float. <P>You're in my prayers,<P> CJ