mediation agreement is done, waiting on the typist, and review by lawyers, and then to court.<P>after meeting on way back to car, I asked her one last time, is this what she wants to do, and she said yes. And I asked why, and the answers are 1) it feels right, 2) we are very different people, 3) we want different things out of life, and 4) i am mean sometimes.<P>Well, i can agree for the most part, although i hate giving up, i hate not trying, and I hate not having known what was going on inside her head. I know i will be better for it as I know i can't help her with her mental health. I will find a better mate, just not for another 10 years. she probably will also, just very different than me.<P>She said she was sorry, that she didn't even know it was getting bad, and so I told her that I thought it was unfair to do this without telling me that it was getting bad for her. She said she couldn't if she didn't know it. She also said that she would try if she thought there was any chance of us making it for the kids. (but she never told me she was having a hard time until it was too late)<BR>She loved to tell me afterwards, if I had done this or that, it would have worked.<P>yes I do say things every once in awhile that can be construed as mean, but not a blatent mean statement. Yes, I do get fed up about someone who loves to criticize me and complain alot, especially when I am trying hard to be patient with inherently impatient people, people who are minimalists about learning and life. Yes, i can be direct at times, i have been known to LB on occassion. I have also been known to hold people's feet to the fire, and they don't always like it.<P>But ultimately, she said it feels different and right. She said it was a big marriage breaker to have confronted her by snooping in her pocketbook to find business cards and lots of telephone calls to OM, when she was going out real late at night, and drinking at bars when she wouldn't even drink a glass of wine with me, and had never gone out to bars w/o me before. Was I manipulated into being able to be blamed? possibly. Was I right about some of the OM/EA? yes. Was I always told the truth? no. Was important stuff hid from me? yes. What is her built in excuse? I have a bad memory, or it was part of the mental illness.<P>And so, I wait for the court date. But the only consolation is that after mediation, she said her lawyer would not sign the agreement because she did not get full CS amount. I said mine didn't want me to either, but I don't listen to guys who love to argue just to win a specialty situation and then get paid for it.<P>So mediation is very good, i really respect the lawyer who did it, she was very good. <P>I believe in MB's, i understand the concepts but could not convince her to believe in them. My STBX's family believe in their experts, the ones they select that fit their ideas, and generally don't believe in counseling. too much work i think.<P>Will I plan A for life? yes, is it hard? not at all if the couple can understand each other and have a real committment together. Is it hard when the couples don't commit? you betcha its hard. Karenna, I don't know how you do it, have done it for so long.<P>Are personality types to blame? sometimes, the 4 letter ones are very, very difficult, other times, they are great. More on the order of the bipolar, very wide swings between good and bad.<P>So I thank everyone here, although i think my plan A was not as good as it should have been. I did not get much of a chance to convince her it was permanent, or to get better at it, or get any help from her at it. I tried knowing that there was a deadline. Should I have taken the in house separation? I don't know. IL's did that, and are still living that way today, 30 years later. Was I in an educational mood to educate STBX like Karenna has been doing? That lasted the first 5 years of our relationship, and then I had to take care of myself and grow, pursuing my growth and there was a let down in my attention to her, but I think it was more literal fusion than differentiation. It was pleasing the other with resentment building up. It was trying to make the other person more like ourselves, which is how the INTP/ESFJ relationship flourishes.<P>i will probably always be here, since right now, everyone here and maybe a couple of other real life person are my only friends at the moment. And I love the mental stimulation of the challenges here, and the growth that this place supports.<P>tom<BR><p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited October 17, 2000).]

I am glad that mediation worked for you...in that it seems that the marriage could not be revived, but sad for you in that this was the case. <P>We all have faults and it sounds from this and your other posts that you have intellectualized the death of the marriage in terms of stbx's personality, while at the same time taking into account some of your more LBing qualities...which is a growth point for one to even acknowledge these.<P>From where I am mediation sounds heavenly.... but in truth it could never work for me in this case....however I am now doing a course in alternative dispute resolution....for my life with teens and perhaps a career change in the future.<P>Stbx wants to mediate visitation...when in fact the kids and not I control this mostly!!!!and I am supposed to agree to the mediator's decision as a pre-agreement to mediation!!!...and I am supposed to facilitate the arrangements with the mediator for us all!!!!! What insanity is suggested over and over again by stbx though his lawyer as he will not communicate with me!!!!! , all of which consumes so much time and expenses with my lawyer!!!!<P><BR>You state that son does not talk. Here I have found the "divided loyalties" conundrum....so it is vital IMHO for your son to see a therapist, or other adult who he can bond with a talk to as a third party without any vested interest in the outcome....please do consider this. It will also be difficult for your son in an all girls envoronm,ent where he may be the odd one out, or have to be the surrogate dad to d(even if he takes on this role himself!) so there will be much confusion even in the arrangements themselves for him....<P>Divorce really is a disaster for the kids, never mind us. I know if no OP were involved, very few of these marriages would come close to ending! <P>

Tom,<P>Sorry, it has come to this. However, it would seem you were in a game with a stacked deck. You really didn't have much of a chance in this situation. It seems you have come to terms with this mess as much as you hate it.<P>The only real good news is that you are going to keep posting here. You have helped a lot of people and your insight is sorely needed.<P>It is such a sad thing when a marriage that could be saved won't be because one of the parties simply refused to bend at all.<P>Take care and God Bless,<P>JL

tom, <P>I will never forget your earliest posts. Absolutely haunting. You have changed so much in your time here! You know, I even consider you to be a friend in some wierd way.<P>So glad you got a good mediator. Congratulations on sticking with the process. I love doing mediations. They are always so intense! Sometimes I don't find out until long after that the "unfair" agreement they settled on really is the best for reasons that were unspoken, therefore unknown to me at the time.<P>Hang in there with the kids. Things are not going to be easy, because this is still your family. Hope your children grow up and mature well in spite of their mother. <P>You would not believe the improvement in my H this year. He has grown up so much. Can you predict how much more we will all grow up over the next few months? <P>I spent three days in the hospital this week trying not to bleed out. He did great in handling himself, daughter and the most important things. Especially his emotions. <P>Long term project, but he has been on a continuous upward curve throughout. Scary times are in the past, and I would be a fool to expect none in the future. Life and death issues are in our face every day now. Wish me well.

I can't post long; I just wanted to say that I'm sorry, but from what I can tell about you, you seem to have chiseled out a strong sense of identity over time. I think that is wonderful. You also have pushed me at times to consider angles that I never would have. I appreciate the intelligent dialogue you have helped stimulate. Good luck. I'm glad you will be haning around.

Willbok,<P>thanks, you have been a great help in describing what I should not be, as in your XH, and encouraging me in what I have to be.<P>JL,<P>thanks, and you are a wise man, well spoken, and well thought out, and have a good sense of humor. <a genuflect or two> <P>gsd,<P>thanks, although I probably attacked you at the beginning for my assumption that you are very similar to my STBX, I hope I didn't offend you, and from your post, i hope that is the correct interpretation. Yes, life is unexpected, and from your failures, you grow tremendously.<P>Karenna,<P>as far as the friend thought goes, yes, I understand it as I feel the same way. Weird? not really, i think our lives and our personalities have had a bunch of highly correlated events, goals, experiences, and strategies to life. 'nough said.<P>I also appreciated your insights from the very beginning, and your directness, and your depth of understanding and knowledge. I would not be as enlightened as I am now without the BM site, even though I studied it in grad school, it makes sense now.<P>Wish you well? I wish you every bit of happiness you can get, as you deserve it, and with the upcoming events, you need all the wishes you can get. If there is anything I can do, or if I can send a card, email me<BR>at whenifindthetime@yahoo.com<P>BTW, mediation is really cool, and the comment you made is really right on. The agreements are made for unknown reasons to the mediator, but the different viewpoints they bring to table for each to see the other side, as a good practicing lawyer would do, is great.<P>BTW, i assume PTL = Practice Tough Love<P>tom<p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited October 19, 2000).]