Is the answer to not have sex?

711,<BR>Well, you know what my answer will be...<P>Yes. That means no sex. <P>On the other hand, there are people who are ok with casual sex. If you are ok with having casual sex and are ok with the other person taking it casually, then sex can be involved in non-serious dating. That often means (IMO) that little or no intimacy is involved, and that the other person has no obligation to share any information with you about whomever else they are having sex with, etc. etc. You can see how this might not be the optimal situation for someone recovering from a divorce, especially one that involved infidelity.

Ugggh!<P>I hate this whole thing.<P>I don't understand any of this. How do people go out on dates as just friends? I would think that most people who go out on a date are hoping that it will go well and they will get along with the other person. So, if they continue to go out and have fun and start feeling differently about each other, do they call it off then because it is too risky? I think that is impossible for people like me (someone who gets easily attached to others). So, I guess bottomline, I really should not have dated at all for this first year. <P>I think Jayhawk has really caused me to question again what I am doing. But, I feel that I am way over my head now. I hate to think that it is only a matter of time before my relationship blows up. Why does life have to be such a *****?<P>Jen

Jen,<P>The way to keep it casual, is no sex for a while and certainly don't involve the kids. Don't talk about the future , or too much of the past (don't get too close).<P>I don't know what post your referring to from Jay's, but something has come up.<P>Email me!<P>Hugs, Dana<P>

I understand your question. I am hanging out with a friend of a friend. There has been no physical contact of any kind, just simple fun. He has payed for every meal or outing and opens doors for me. I know he thinks of them as "dates" becuase he has told people about them. We are just having fun together. But I understand the confusion about not getting too attached. I enjoy his company and am attracted to him. I have questioned this to death since my divorce isn't final yet. I am unsure of how to keep my head--since I am very vulnerable. I am sure there are people that would advise me to not see him at all because of the risks of getting in over my head. But I don't think that no sex keeps it casual. I think it can get pretty hairy even without sex. He's divorced too, and is in a different place than I. I, too, have tendency to get attached. Someone here once said that when someone is starved for something, it makes them susceptible to even the least bit of attention. The other fills one's love bank which is completely in the red. I just want to be sure that I like this person--or anyone for that matter--because of who he is and not just because of some hole he is filling.

gsd:<P>That is exactly how I feel. <P>Dana:<P>Nothing has happened in my relationship other than it is moving faster than the speed of light. That really worries me because we are both very vulnerable and needy right now. I think we both love the validation we receive from each other. I used to think that wasn't a bad thing but now I'm second quessing myself and whether I should be continuing on in this relationship with the deck stacked against us. <P>For others who think they can just date at this time and not get serious, I would proceed with caution. Especially, if you are like me. I don't want to end my relationship because of the potential risks but sometimes I wish I had never dated so I didn't have to worry about these things. Famous last words, huh!!<P>Jen <p>[This message has been edited by 711 (edited October 18, 2000).]

711,<BR>I dated someone a few months after my divorce for alot of the same reasons you mentioned. I missed the affection, attention, etc. It was a huge disaster. Even though we only dated for a couple of months, it truly set me back in my healing. <P>Looking back, he was someone who definately would have been much better as a friend. <P>One way to make sure your guy friends don't get the wrong impression is to pay half for everything, you open the door for him too , don't get into situations where a kiss might be coming. For instance, don't linger in the car afterward. Meet them there, if you can. Invite other people, by all means. <P>I consider myself a pro now at having guy friends that are not "dates". If the subject of my divorce comes up, I say point blank that I am not interested in a romantic relationship. <P>See, that is another one of my points. Are you really ready for a relationship or do you just want to keep your options open? I truly beleive that if you knew the answer to this question, there would not be as much conflict. I KNOW for a fact I am not. Mr. Super Right could walk in the door and it would not matter. Actually, I would try that much harder to make sure I didn't get involved, cause getting involved too soon could totally mess up something that could be very good later when I'm more stabile.

You all give me confidence in knowing that what I am doing is right(I hope) in that I am just "staying the course". Not looking for anyone or anything. Yes it is hard, yes it sucks, and yes having someone to spend time with would have its pluses, but just as all you are confirming, I think it would just cause me more confusion and problems (at least right now).<P>I guess the worst part is knowing that I don't think I will be ready to date again until things are finalized which could be another year away ("no fault" divorce - 18 month waiting period). But on a the other hand, I have put a lot of my troubles in God's hands and I truly can feel His warmth and love all around me, everyday. It is just that "need" for human companionship that leaves me "wanting" sometimes...

Jen,<P>If anything I have said to you or anyone else in these posts has done ANYTHING for you to second guess your current relationship, PLEASE understand that this was not my intent. I'm just as confused and *&%#ed up as the next person who going through this emotional torment and second guessing of our self-worth. <P>I don't know what I may have said that has made you think, unless you are referring to my 'list' the other night in another thread? <P>I don't know the details of your current relationship, but if you enjoy each other's company and like spending time with one another, then enjoy it. If you are always second guessing your feelings and hold back for fear of being hurt, you will probably live the rest of your life unhappy and alone. <P>If I remember correctly, this man is also recently divorced and you two share this common bond, right? Have you talked about this issue, about moving too fast and all? If I haven't learned anything else in the last few months, I have learned that communication is essential in a healthy relationship. Don't hold back anything, especially in the beginning. Set the ground work now or you will be upset with yourself down the road. If he has been through this and really cares about you, he will understand and should be ok with it, if not, then it may be time to look elsewhere.<P>I heard someone say today, "that you shouldn't have sex with a person that you wouldn't want to have a child with." Obviously not everyone is looking to have kids when engaging in sex as sex occurs for a variety of reasons, but if the thought of having a child with this other person does not appeal to you, then maybe sex should not be a part of the relationship. I liked the thought of this myself, but I am guilty of not following it in the past. Once I start dating again, I don't know how I will be when it comes to sex.<P>If you are in the need to yell at me in private, here's the address: jhawk93@kc.rr.com<P>Shawn

Jayhawk:<P>No need to yell at you! Just the opposite. I was referring to your post with the list of items stating why you are not ready to seriously date someone. It just made me think again about what I was getting into. <P>This is a very confusing time for me. I suffer from bouts of insecurity. I did talk to my friend last night and it was very helpful.<P>Please keep writing from the heart because it helps all of us to be honest here.<P>Well, I have to go get myself and the kids ready for school.<P>Thanks everyone for the advise.<P>Jen

I read your previous posts too, Jayhawk. My problem is that I THINK that I am ready to EASE into a relationship. That worries me. I wonder what others will think, if I am decieving myself, if I am losing my mind, if he thinks I am foolish. Lots of doubt about what seems to be a simple thing. I guess I feel most comfortable seeing how things go and taking them as they come. 711, why do you feel that the deck is stacked against you? (That is not a rhetorical question.) Bottom line: I feel comfortable with him and am not ruling out a relationship down the road if it leads there. However, I am feeling like I am not following the "rules" or something. That's where my problem lies.

One of the things i enjoyed most after my separation was going out. But it took 5 months before i let myself spend time with someone. It lasted only for a short time and he wanted and expressed a willingness for me. But my reluctance came threw and he told me i wasn't ready. He was right. After that i spent time with a mix of people letting them know right off the bat that i was not looking for anything long term or steady.<BR>I found these times are more relaxing because i am not responsible for anyone else's feelings and more importantly i can still look after my needs and that of my child's without feeling guilty.<BR>A guy i dated a couple months ago chose towalk because he was fed up with how things were, and that i spent time with my ex. (how dare i not give him sex!) At first i was surprised that i was hurt he walked. I realized i had feelings for him. But i also realized that if someone i am spending time with can not appraciate my situation and state then them walking is the better avenue to take. I don't ever want to say that i used someone or rebounded. I have dated quite a few different guys. None of which i regret and none did i sleep with. When they would bring it up, i would tell them that i wasn't ready for that.<P>More then not they seem to understand. I guess i look at it this way. If they walked i knew they were hanging around for sex.... or at least that was my interpretation.<P>But i would be lying if i didn't say i haven't had a one night stand.<BR>Right after my ex and i separated. I went to a friend for comfort and even though some consider it to be an affair, I didn't regret it. It reassured me that i am attractive and hey it felt nice too!<P>Good luck.

711,<P>Ok, no yelling.....that's a good thing.<P>I'm glad the two of you talked last night.<P>Hope you have a good day <P>------------------<BR>JH93

Some of those formulas I've heard about are crazy: 1 year for every 4 your were married; wait six months before a date; don't kiss for year. Where do these cookie cutter rules come from? <P>711--<P>What do you mean "the speed of light?" Can you be specific, if you don't mind. I'm curious what people think is moving too fast. (some say kissing, some say sex, some say dating alone, some say letting him pay.) This guy has not touched me, but has opened every door for me, has payed for everything, has taken me out three times in five days, and called me four out of five. We have talked of our divorces briefly, but otherwise kept the conversation light and funny. No romantic overtures like flowers or music, no time at home or dinners. I am comfortable with the companionship. So is he. There is no pressure from either end. I am close friends with some of his family (his sister--who set us up) so I know a bit about him. He was a safe date, so to speak. I certainly don't think I am moving at the speed of light. But I am mostly worried that I am either in denial about my feelings or that I am a now a hypocrite that never truly valued her marraige and husband. You know the types: "Oh, I knew he was never good for me. I just didn't see it then. Now where's my coat? I have a date," she exclaims. Not actually the truth, but I'm sure it's out there for some. I guess my point (after rambling forever) is that I don't want to ever admit that my marriage was ever bad (it was ) or that our divorce might be the right thing to do. That flies in the face of my values and my ideals. I have been mourning the loss of what could/should have been and not what was--to quote a good friend.

Ok - Lots to respond to!!<P>The Student: I think one of the reasons I question dating so much is because I really have never been "single". Now I am and it is like a whole new world. Last time I dated I was just 18. But, I think I also ask a lot of questions because I like to have different perspectives on things so I can decide if I am doing the right thing for me. Or, it could be just as you have said. I'm just not ready for this.<P>GSD:<P>Well, I have done all of the things you have described in you message regarding traveling at the speed of light (kissing, sex, exclusive dating, letting him pay, open doors, send flowers, cards, at home dinners, over all the time, etc.) Just writing that makes me dizzy. I also feel like I am not following the "rules". I never have been good at following rules other than the vow I took when I got married to stay married and faithful. For what that was worth since I was powerless over my x's decision to leave. You will find that many will question how you really felt about your marriage if you date too soon. But, only you really know how you were in your marriage and why it ended, etc. So, you shouldn't worry too much about that.<P>Well I am off to counseling. By the way, how long do people think one should remain in counseling? I feel like I have been going forever. I was in 2 years of marriage counseling before x left and now I have been in for another 8 months. I guess I should start another post on that.<P>Jen<P><p>[This message has been edited by 711 (edited October 20, 2000).]

Jen,<P>Your still in counseling?? I thought you were going to switch to me when I open up my practice?????<P>All MB'ers will get a 30% discount, he he he.<P>I can't believe what I'm hearing from you, second guessing??? Maybe you two can just slow down a bit and take a moment to enjoy each other without sex. It will show you how deep the relationship is and if its only physical. <P>Where's my email??? <P>Dana<BR>

Thanks for the response 711; you cleared up the questions I had. Yes, I am worrying that people will question how I felt about my marraige. Even the complete strangers here. My friends and family are really supportive and encouraging. They are happy to see me having fun. I just need to learn to think with my head and not my heart. If I had done that before I married my H, I wouldn't have done it becuase I knew then that it was a poor decision. But love conquers all. . . not!

GSD,<P>I know how you feel. I love my wife deeply, but I don’t want to wait forever. I have met a few women that I would be interested in dating, but I wonder how other’s will view me for dating so soon after the divorce. However, my W gave me the news on June 18th and moved out on July 6th. If I look at it that way, my marriage has basically been over for about 3 or 4 months already and I’m still about a month away from it being final with the court. Even if I go out on a first date the night my divorce becomes final, it will still be a number of months after my marriage ended.<P>Besides, what should I care what others think? I have remained true to my vows and to myself through this whole process. I’m happy with that and that’s what’s important.<BR><P>------------------<BR>JH93

gsd,<P>that sounds like a great stride in your growth! congratulations. You are getting better, and hopefully will take the time to know yourself, and what you need, in order to find out who can satisfy that the best.<P>tom<BR>

Ok, alot of you folks have said "I don't care what other people think". At some level, that is good. <P>Think about this though...<BR>If you met someone who was still married, but separated and wanted to date, wouldn't there be a big question mark in your head? The first thought I'd have is OH SURE the OTHER person cheated. Hmmm. <P>Second, whether or not your marriage was good or bad, you made vows. You may not be concerned with the technical details, but remember, your STBX's weren't either when they trotted off with OW/OM. Now, I certainly can't point the finger. I cheated myself. However, I learned something from this, and I don't want to see you guys mess up. <P>You say you don't want to wait. Your STBX's didn't either. How hard can it really be? I know, pretty hard. But seriously, how can any 'quality' person you would want to date (ideally after a divorce) really trust that you have the willpower to stay the course if things get tough if you can't wait a few months for a divorce. <P>Impressions do count. If you don't care about them, you will end up with other people who don't care about impressions either. That is the problem. I'm not here to spoil your fun. Honest. And I'm not trying to be judgemental. It is true that only you know what really happened in your marriage, and nobody else. I just don't want you folks to make things tougher for yourselves in the long run.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited October 20, 2000).]