This may be a little weird on this board, but I could climb on my roof and scream. I finally got it after 15 years of marraige......and about 10 years of wondering why I was so unhappy. I stayed in a marraige, because he was such a good man, and still is but not even close to being a good man for me to be married to. I have such different needs than he can ever give that it is a wonder I am not in a looney bin. I have driven myself to the point of craziness thinking you cannot get divorced, you have to keep trying!!!!!<P>I realized 9 months ago that I couldnt do this any more. I have been in counseling for that length of time, and I think I finally solved it all on my own! He has tried to pacify me with everything else , and none of what I needed......this does not make him a bad person, I still love him, but not the way I should to stay married, I will never ever hate him again!!!!! I am finally over the hate. No amount of sex, money, vacations, remodeling or anything else will ever fill the void I feel when I am with him. It is with this statement that I am finally free to let go and let god! I cant beleive It took me so long!!!!!!!I hope this was an appropriate place for this post! Thank you all for the support I have recived from this site over the last 9 months. Thanks again nikki

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nikkilynn2:<BR><B>I finally got it after 15 years of marraige......and about 10 years of wondering why I was so unhappy. I stayed in a marraige, because he was such a good man, and still is but not even close to being a good man for me to be married to. I have such different needs than he can ever give that it is a wonder I am not in a looney bin. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nikki,<P>I am not about to tell you what to do, considering I know very little about your situation. But let me give you something to think about from the "good man's" point of view. My wife, like you, often told me that I was/am such a good person, but she just is not "in love" with me anymore. That I just don't know how to love her like she deserves to be loved.<P>That was about a year ago. From the day she came to me and told me that, I have made a complete turn around in both my life and in how I have grown to show my love for her. She was right, I did not "know" how to love her like she needed to be loved. But you know what? She never told me! Sure she would hint around to it here and there, but she never thought she needed to tell me how she wanted to be loved. She said that if it was "true love" than I should have just known. Bull*hit.<P>I love (loved) this woman more than anyone on the face of the planet. I would have done (will do) anything for her. <P>But it was part my ignorance in not showing love the "right way" BUT it was also part HER ignorance for thinking that someone else should just "know" how to effectively make her feel loved.<P>Now we are in route for a divorce - why? Not because I have not changed...she told me before she moved out that now I was the husband she always wanted me to be. Rather her reasoning is that she does not think she can ever recover her love for me or forgive me for that matter. Don't you think she has some of the blame in this? If she does not forgive me, then how in the world can the feelings of "in love" be expected to return? What about taking the blame for her lack of true communication? Not so I can say "see you are to blame too", but rather so we can say, "boy, we both messed up, but you know what we once loved each other enough to pledge our lives (our lives!) to each other - in good times and in bad - why is it so difficult to believe that if we both forgive, and begin to learn how to love, that we won't fall back into that love?" "We don't need to just give up, maybe all we need to do is 'dig in' and get to work on fullfilling all of each other's needs and let that be our decision".<P>If you never told your husband, truly told him what you want and need, how do you think he is supposed to know? Men are sooooo different than women in how we approach love and relationships. We both need to learn how to love effectively. There is no "rule book" on marriage, no manual, no courses to take. The only things we have to learn from is each other. But if you go through life just thinking the other person "should know" how to love you, you are in for a very sad life. And I can tell you this, if you go into another relationship with the same belief that this new person should know how to love me - once the wooing years are over, you are going to be right back in the same situation.<P>My question to you is: "Did you ever truly tell your husband what you need from him? Honestly tell him?" If your answer is "yes" and it is true that he is such a good person and loves you so much, than why do you think he did not change? If he truly loves you don't you think that changing his life and the way he treats and shows you affection would be a simple thing to do?<P>Now you have come to the decision that divorce is the answer. And again not knowing all the details of your situation I can't say for sure if that is the best course of action or not. I can tell you (in my own opinion) I truly believe in many cases, divorce is used as an easy way out. In some cases it is really necessary, but I think they are the exceptions and not the norm.<P>Sure you say that you tried for so many years, but did you try different things? Or did you just think that if you keep loving him more and more and showing your love that someday, somehow he would just "wake up" and learn how to love you back?<P>Sorry for the venting in this post. You see it is just that I have always loved my wife - more than I could possibly put into words. And I know that I am partly to blame for this mess we are in. But I also know that if you truly love someone, making changes and sacrifices should be a "no brainer". My wife came to me and told me what she wanted from me. She opened my eyes to the issues and problems I caused in our marriage. Her telling me all this was the worst pain I have ever felt in my life!!!! I loved this woman but here she was in so much pain. That day, God came into my life and I began to understand what my wife needed from me. I began to give it to her and guess what? She told me it was "fake" and "too little too late".<P>All I can say is that if your husband is such a good person then don't just give up on him!! Bring him to counseling. Tell him more honestly than you ever have before what you NEED from him. Give him a chance to change. I have a feeling that you will be surprised! If he is a good man, he will change. And if he does, don't discount his achievements - don't belittle them - it is after all what you always wanted from him.<P>Think hard about divorce. It often does not solve the problems in your life, it just brings on more.<P>God Bless and keep you.<P>Mike

Mike, <P>I am more replying to your response than Nikki.<P>As for your wife, I don't know what her reasoning might be, but as for her response of your changing as being "fake" and "too little too late" have you ask her if it is that she is "afraid to believe you are sincere"?<P>I have a similar situation. I have used the same words as you "if you love me and and say you want to do the right thing it shouldn't be hard". But my problem is that I have a H that says "it is hard. I can't just do it over night. You may be able to put your mind to something and just do it, but I am not like that". That baffles me.<P>He has said all the same words to me over and over for the last 4 years of our marriage. I have tried to believe in him and continued to "give him a chance". He would do the right stuff for a little bit and then quit. I would have to tell him what I needed, and arguments ensued and trouble, and then he would say it again and I'd give him another chance.<P>Now that I have been hurt so bad and am feeling bad about myself now and questioning everything I am doing, I too think whatever he says is "fake" or " a little too late".<P>That gets me to questioning if I am the one hanging up any progress that could be made between us. But I also question if I can heal ever again to trust him fully and believe him. Never knew fear like this before and I don't know how to handle it. I am afraid I am handling it wrong, but I don't know that answer either.<P>In your case, maybe your could talk with your wife about her "fear" if that is what she has. If you are doing every thing on a daily basis, you can only ask her to give you time. Understand her feelings and allow her to feel that way, but SHOW her differently and comfort her when she expresses that to you. Don't get angry when she says those things to you, just encourage her to try and stay with it.<P>I don't get the encouragement. I get a response that "well if you feel that way then there is no chance for us". I don't want to hear that, I want to be acknowledged for having valid feelings and given some type of support to hang on that it will change by way of actions that continue each and every day. I am not getting that however. Keep trying. She might come around.

Madeline,<P>I have to be honest with you - I did the same thing your husband did a year before my wife moved out - I started to change, then I let life catch up and I slipped back into who I was. I did not "take her seriously" for lack of a better way to say it. I mean I knew she was right the times before, but I did not think it was "that serious" - I thought it was just her going through a tough time and me not making things any easier on her. So the changes I made in myself were only temporary (how I regret that now)<P>The difference with the last time she came to me (about a year ago) was the tone of her voice. Or maybe it was God stepping in. I just don't know. I can only describe it as someone removing a blindfold that I had been wearing for the past few years. That night I saw everything so clearly - I saw my mistakes, I saw the pain I had caused this woman I loved - the utter pain. You hear stories about events that change people's lives instantly - that was mine. She helped me see the person I had become and I did not like what I saw. It was almost like that night I felt all the years of pain she had endured quietly. It almost made me physically sick (that is how strong the emotions were).<P>That night was the motivation for my changes. I knew God had given me that night to truly see what was important in my life - and she was standing right in front of me. I prayed that this was Him giving me one last chance to make things right. Unfortunately my wife did not see it that way. She had waited until her breaking point. When she "broke" she exploded. I think at that moment she made up her mind that nothing I could do would save our marriage. (And she is stubborn!)<P>Now we are apart - She has "run" away to live with her brother in another state. All I can do (and have been doing) is to give her the time she needs. I never ask for her to come back (we barely speak on the phone anymore - she hasn't called in about a month and I don't want to be intrusive and call her), all that I had asked from her was for her forgiveness and for her trust, ONE LAST TIME.<P>The sad part is that I know how tough it will be for her to open up and let me in again. That brings tears to my eyes. Sure there are other issues in our marriage that we both share in the blame, but nothing so big as to warrant a divorce.<P>I have chosen to stick to the following:<BR>1) I will give her time<BR>2) I will not try to control the situation<BR>3) I pray both morning and night for both of us and for our families<BR>4) But I am beginning to get on with my life<BR>5) I will keep my "door open" for as long as we are "married".<BR>6) I will live everyday to its fullest. Let her see who I have become.<P>I don't feel the need or desire to date right now - as for her I can only guess.<P>As for you and your husband, he needs to come to the realization that this may be "it" for you two. You need to tell him and make sure he realizes the severity of the situation. BUT, you can't convince him that he needs to change! Unfortunately that can only come from with-in. He needs to make that decision himself. And I will pray that he does for your sake and for his sakes.<P>God Bless.

ST,<P>Thank you so much for your thoughts. Let me ask you a question that you might be able to answer for me as I am in similar shoes to your wife, yet a little different as I can't let go and still want somehow for this to work.<P>Knowing that your wife is "fearful that you will just go back to your old ways", but say she was willing to work on it. What would you expect her to do? Should she tell you her feelings all the time even though it may be hurtful? Or would you rather not hear anything negative except in counseling for a while?<P>Also, did you feel "guilty" for what you seem to have put her through and the things you did? If so, how did you deal with that. That is one thing I have heard come out of my H mouth and I think in some way it has him so down he doesn't know what to do.<P>I am about ready to lose it out here. I am in a ton of pain (to the point I am throwing up and pacing at night) and nothing the counselors I have talked with makes me accept this any better or feel any better.<P>My H says has an anger problem. He is going to counseling on his own for that. Just yelling and leaving the situation and me all the time. Nothing physical. He says that he doesn't know why he is angry. But I notice that in the past if all is well and I don't bring up problems, he is fine. If I bring up a problem, he tends to get angry and it escalates from there.<P>He tells me that he has to work through all that and get rid of that anger before he can do anything else for us. He sees that as his way of working on US. His reasoning, if he gets rids of his anger then he will be able to talk with me. My opinion is that he needs to work through the anger thing for himself and us, but that doesn't deprive him from still "giving" me some of the things I need from him. He just disagrees and says he can't do that. I feel like again, there is nothing being given to me in return for what I give him (which isn't a whole lot now as I have withdrawn quite a bit from the pain).<P>Anyway, I would like to hear from your view what, again, if your wife were to say OK, let's work on this, what you would need from her and for her to do when it is just the two of you and no counselor present to referee. Should she express herself or should she wait a whole week until counseling? <P>Thank you for the prayers, and I will also pray for you and your wife.

Mike, In rereading your initial post...................Yes I agree she has fault. No questions asked. I also think from her point of view it is hard to say to someone " Can you tell me you love me right now..I really need to hear it" and have them say....oh yeah, I love you<P>Please, to some degree that needs to be natural........Like after you have a miscarraige and surgery for it, instead of your husband saying......."hurry up and eat so we can be discharged, we have to go to my fathers retirement party" I think "hey honey I know it was hard, but we will get through this" and by the way "I LOVE YOU"<BR> Do I sound a little bitter? Sorry

Madeline,<P>OK with tears in my eyes I am going to respond to your question as if I am talking to my wife - through it you will see the honesty talking and maybe if your husband is like me, you will learn more about him....<BR>---------------------------<BR>xxxxx,<P>You asked me "Mike what can I do to save our marriage. I mean after all the years of 'doing' already, I will bite and ask what more I should do". Let me answer that by first telling you that I know the pain you are in. I feel it every day, everytime I think about you - everytime I see your face in my mind. I think back to our beginning and remember such a happy face, such laughter and such smiles. Then I see the uncontrollable sobbing we both shared when you told me "it was over". <P>Nothing I can say or do can ever make up for the person I became - I know that. I have said it before, but I need you to really believe that my heart was always in the "right" place. I felt that to make a good husband, to show you the love I held for you, I had to provide you with the financial security that you needed. Or rather that I thought you needed. All those times I was working late, or at home, or on the weekends, it wasn't because I did not want to be with you. I felt so sad not being able to do the things we used to do. But I felt this need to be successful - not for me - really. I could careless about myself. I only wanted to make you proud of me and to show you my love. To give you what I thought you needed.<P>I now realize that is not what you needed. Like Kenny Roger's new song, I should have "Bought you a Rose on my way home from work". I should have been doing the small things everyday. I never knew how to express my love to you. The day you came to me and exploded, you ripped my heart out. I felt so mad at myself I really thought I was going to be physically sick. I never knew "how much" pain you were in. I will be forever sorry for that. I used to say that in my life I had no regrets - I can no longer ever say that again. I will always regret the pain I caused the person I "care about more than anyone else in this world".<P>But xxxxxx, you are not faultless in all of this. How about all the times I asked what you wanted to do, or what you needed from me? What did you say? You told me that my work was important and that you understood - just to avoid "hurting my feelings". But did you ever think that you were robbing me of that experience? Maybe I needed my feelings hurt every now and then. How else could I be expected to learn from my mistakes. If I did not know I was hurting you, how could I fix it? How could I "be there for you" when you couldn't tell me when you needed me? That is the most painful thing about all of this to me - the knowledge that you were suffering and I did nothing to help - mostly because I was too blind to see your pain.<P>Did you really think that if you told me how you felt, I would stop loving you? Did you really think that if I got mad and angry, I would end up leaving you? I am so sorry you felt that way. Yes I did used to have a problem with my anger. While I never struck you or became physical, I know the tone of my voice could scare "many a person". What I discovered was that my anger was only a result of not being able to "get out" what I was thinking and feeling. I would get so frustrated at not being able to show my true emotions, it would come out as anger. You can attest that I have done a great bit of growing on that issue since I met you. But that is not because you stopped making me angry - it had nothing to do with you or what you did. It was my issue - something I needed to take care of myself and I did.<P>Now I think I can see how you could have taken it as, "since you caused no problems I would not get angry". That is 100% wrong. I am sorry you took it that way. I would have never stopped caring for you just because you upset me. NEVER. Take us now for instance, you have been ripping my heart out for the past year and still here I am with love for you.<P>But the past is gone - how can we fix our future? I don't know all the answers to that, but I do know how we can start - by trusting each other again. By fulling opening up to each other again. By believing in no uncertain terms that if we ask God into our marriage, He will bring His healing power down to us. If we live our marriage according to His wishes, our love would flourish, for it is from Him that our love pours forth. I LOVE YOU xxxxx. I always will. Don't ever be afraid to hurt my feelings again - ever. Tell me what you want, tell me what makes you feel loved. Tell me what you hate. Let's start by being honest and open. But when you hurt me (and know that you will, it is only human nature), know that even if I get mad and upset, that "this too will pass". Let me be angry, let me be mad. It may take a little while but I will calm down - then we can discuss what the problem is/was. Don't be afraid of me in any sense. I will do my best not to hurt you. But when I do (again there is no way to avoid that), let me know - help me learn what I did and how that made you feel.<P>But above all we need to remember we vowed "for better and for worse". If we both agree that there is NO way we will ever divorce, then we will switch our thinking to finding a solution "within" our marriage and not in ending our bond. Being "in love" often gets bruised in a marriage, but loving should never stop. Often it is in giving love first, that we feel the most "in love".<P>Love,<BR>Mike<BR>------------------------------<BR>Madeline<P>I don't know if the above helps in anyway, but what I have found is that there are many women (and some men) out there that feel they need to be martyrs. They don't have to be, and in fact they are doing much more harm to themselves and to others than they are good.<P>My wife's father is a perfect example. This man is such a wonderful person to everyone "outside" of the family. But with his family he lives through his control. They have all grown up with a "love-hate" feeling for him. They see the good work he does for others so they know he is good, but they hate the way he treats them and tries to always control them. But they share a lot in the blame! Why? Because they never tell him when he is wrong or when he upsets them. Instead they "keep the peace" and withdrawl from any conflict. So what happens? He keeps doing the same things over and over again. I truly believe he thinks he is doing what is best for them, and since they don't speak up, he will never learn that he is driving them all away.<BR>My wife once said that she is afraid of how he will react if she tells him something that bothers her (translation: she is afraid he will stop loving her if she upsets him). I on the other hand come from a bizarro household Actaully maybe you have seen the show based on our lives "Everybody Loves Raymond"? When someone was mad or upset at somebody else, everyone knew it. Our house tended to be somewhat "loud". But now I have the most incredible relationship with my parents. Sure I am sorry for the way I treated them sometimes growing up, but I knew then as I know now that they would never "stop loving me" if I upset them.<P>God told us to do unto others, but He did not say - do everything for others and sacrifice yourself. Madeline be honest with your husband in what you want and what you need. Take your counselor's advice on whether it is best to share your feelings when they happen or to save them for your "sessions", but in no case forget them or let them go (one piece of advice though - if they are to be shared in sessions, make sure your sessions are frequent). <P>Your husband needs to know what bothers you. Now don't get me wrong, nit-picking and nagging is not the way to do it. Be honest and sincere. Don't do it because you think he will change instantly, do it so he will hear what bothers you and maybe learn from it.<P>I apologize for the length of this - hope your eyes don't get tired <P>Mike

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nikkilynn2:<BR><B>Like after you have a miscarraige and surgery for it, instead of your husband saying......."hurry up and eat so we can be discharged, we have to go to my fathers retirement party" I think "hey honey I know it was hard, but we will get through this" and by the way "I LOVE YOU"<BR> Do I sound a little bitter? Sorry</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>nikkilynn2<P>I think unfortunately we as men, all have one or two of those events we wish we could take back! Perfect example, after my mom's first birth (my sister) in the hospital, my dad came to her room and brought her a PLANT! Not flowers, candy or a special card - a PLANT! She only recently told me about that day. She kind of laughed saying that now she can see his heart was in the right place, but you know, I could still hear the pain in her voice as she spoke.... A small pain from a woman who has been married to my dad for close to 40 years....<P>Guys are just sometimes "thick" for lack of a better word. We often are just not in-touch with our emotions. And women are sometimes too in-touch with their emotions. We are different types people and that I think is what makes us all so special.

I understand what you are saying about the regret. But as much as your wife was willing to play the martyr, I after counseling the first time was not, and did say , no, I would rather do this or that. etc......bottom line Mike you sound like you are truly sorry for what has happened. I understand that, what I am trying to tell you and I know I havent gotten my point across is.......My husband has continued and continued to show me that he would do almost anything to "KEEP" me. Except give me what I need most.Sometimes no amount of time or counseling can put a look on someones face, that says" I am happy to see you,you complete me" sounds really corny doesnt it? but if it is there it takes away alot of hurt and anger. What I am saying to you also is in looking back, we BOTH being as stubborn as we are, built up ways to handle eachother, and forgot what we were fighting for, as our counselor calls it" a pissing contest" I get a little angry when you say you thought you were doing the right thing by providing financial security.....it gets old hearing that, it is a copout. If I said "I thought all you needed was me to do the dishes, cook dinner and doing laundry, what would you say? I truly thought that by doing those things, I thought I was showing you "I love you" It doesnt sound the same, If you are in a relationship, of course you are going to do things for the good of you both. But dont forget that you are still supposed to be 2 people coming together for intimacy and love. I think we all forget that occasionally, Lucky are the ones who never do, even luckier are the ones who go through counseling and remember that. Everyones situation is different, and I have learned that I cannot continue to punish him for not being able to give what I need. even after telling him. I think his statement that I meet all his needs hurt me more than anything....I knew I had tried, and how hard I tried to be there emotionally, and physically for him. He couldnt understand what I wanted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think deep down through all this divorce mess we will finally figure out what went wrong..................how sad Coll

nikkilynn2,<P>I agree with you 100%. If you were able to go to him and tell him "what you needed from him" and he still is not able to supply it, then, in at least that respect, the fault is his. I only wish my wife would give me that chance! For her to write to me or tell me verbally "what it is that she wants from a husband". Because nikkilynn2, I can guarantee you, I could provide that for her. Why? Because I would do anything for my wife - really.<P>When she first left, she made me question my feelings about why I wanted her back - Was it that I wanted to "win" and prove her wrong? Was it that I was petrified to be on my own? It was neither - that is one thing I now am convinced of 100%. I wanted her back because I love her. To me, being in love with someone does not necessarily mean you know "what" that person needs. What it does mean is that you are committed to finding out what that person needs and then providing it to them!<P>Like I wrote in one of my previous posts, right before she left she told me that "now you are the husband I always wanted you to be". Her problem is in getting over the anger she has for me - for the years I was not there for her. I can't change the past, all I can do is promise for the future. She says she is not "in love" anymore, but how can she expect to be "in love" with someone if she can't find it in herself to forgive? And to realize that she had a part in things too!<P>I NOW know the "being a good provider" statement is bull*hit - I realize where I went wrong. Now all I can do is hope that with time, she can get over the anger and possibly give me another chance - I vow that she will not be dissappointed.<P>From how you describe your husband it sounds like he is in typical "guy reaction" - that he WANTS to fix things, but he is not "listening" to you in how he needs to go about doing it. He thinks he has the answers and by just working at it even harder, he will somehow prove to you his love. <P>It is like the bull who keeps running into the same wall, each time harder and harder. If he would only stop and move 10 feet to the left or right, he would be able to walk leisurely past the wall. Instead his stubborness only causes him pain.<P>But that does not mean that you should just "give up" on the bull. If you truly loved him at one time, why not keep trying? The bottom line is that he does still love you, right? He is still trying to fix things, right? Ok, so maybe he is not doing the right things to help things, but does that mean it is not worth it to try? Remember that no one ever said marriage was going to be easy. And sometimes you just need to trust in "love" and in God.<P>I think feelings of being "in love" come and go over a life time, but "loving" someone does not change - nor should it. Look at how many people are on these boards BECAUSE there spouses will not "try". It sounds like your husband is willing to try. He just needs some direction. You two made commitments to each other all those years ago - maybe divorce is not the answer.<P>There is a great book out there that a friend of mine told me about. It is the Couple's Devotional Bible. Yes basically it is a bible, but it also contains daily stories and reflections from over 100 couples about everything from commitment to trusting each other, to forgiveness. I really believe it should be a resource every married couple reads. Most of all it tells of what "true love" is and how far society has taken that away from the institution of marriage.<P>Don't get me wrong - I am not a "holly roller". I am only 29 years old and still "go out with the guys", but I just allowed God into my life, and that has made such a difference in how I look at my wife, my marriage and my future.

Mike,<P>I had a simlar wife, but its her personality type that is like that. I generally so not get angry, but her constant criticism, and lack of understanding, and her inability to communicate honestly, and straightforward, still gets me mad even now.<P>However, now I don't respond, and then I was seen as cold.<P>Yes, to say "you should know if you are married to me" constantly is rather controlling, giving her all the power to determine if something was acceptable or unacceptable at the time. And it gets to be used against you at any time.<P>This is not your problem, but a true communication problem, comm problem with an agenda. that is why I posted the query about the types of interactions, one with direct wants, the other without speaking.<P>It is tough, but as Frank Pittman says in his book, it is much easier to marry someone with a similar background and beliefs, that it is too marry one without similarities. That is the purpose for Harley's conversation about anything, honesty during dating. My STBX is not honest, bomes up with the whackiest excuses, and now 11 yo s is turning out to be more like her than I think.<P>tom<P><BR>tom<P><BR>

Nikki & others,<P>What do you do if you can't supply what the other spouse "needs?" What if that trait is not in your nature?<P>I know people can change, but what if it is really against your nature, such as showing affectionate ? Is it the spouse's fault for not having that character trait or is it the other spouse's fault for marrying someone with this character trait and then expecting the spouse to acquire the trait?<P>Nikki, you words are very similiar to what my x told me. Only instead of a counselor, she had an om help her find what she was missing.<P>Please don't take this as a flame. I thought it was very interesting and thought provoking.<P>Bob<P>

RWD,<P>Let me take a stab at this one.... I think it is called "give and take". You both need to find a common ground - that is what marriage is really about - compromise. If it is truly not in the spouse's nature to "meet" a particular need, then I think it could be handled through the following:<P>The spouse, who's need is going unmet, should focus on the other positive things he/she gets from their partner and learn to understand that nobody is perfect, and I don't think anyone can truly fulfill ALL the "needs" of another. But this does not relieve the other partner from trying to learn "how" to meet that need. If both partners are at opposing ends of the spectrum, then meeting in the middle should be the best solution. Each bending a little for the good of the marriage. Isn't that what marriage is all about? Two good people coming together to form one bond?

I will tell you all , we have had some shocking revelations at my house recently..................................<BR>Husband took the kids out of town over the weekend, not a big deal, but I got to spend some time alone, which was nice.In retrospect on my marriage, I have spoken to alot of old friends recently to tell them, and have gotten alot of validation on the fact that my husband hand picked me , so to speak. Apparently, my husband was open enough to share somethig with a friend of mine that he has never even shared with me about a previous woman! He had been engaged to a woman, this I knew. When I had asked him why they broke up, I got a mutual decision answer, he told my girlfriend she left him, with a very expensive ring he bought. after disclosing this to her, he told her, he knew I would never leave him, no matter what......admirable for me , but how sad is that. She told me when it was said, she had a sick feeling in her stomach , that he would never give as much as he needed in the relationship, because he knew that with my upbringing, and personality, I would be there always. ok, Now here is the fun part. I had already graduated from Nursing School, making great Money, he was in School, I supported us completly, with no questions asked, I even bought my own engagement ring and wedding ring.That is how much I thought of myself!!!<P>ok so lets move to years down the road, I notice quite a bit of being taken for granted, and discounted. But he is a good man, seems to be just fine, I ask him to not act certain ways , do certain things, because they make me feel bad. he doesnt understand, doesnt even try.......we have 3 children together, I give up a wonderful job to move for his carreer, work 2 jobs to help support his practice and family (which I never questioned, we were doing it for our family)<P>ok, I sound like a martyr.but I wasnt, very strong , very emotional, always let him know how bothered I was by his lack of attentiveness, would help for a week or so...............then comes the good years, I cut my hours, still on a tight budget..but ok<BR>I end up telling him our relationship is fine, just fine, but thats all, any love or feelings we had other than just working together for so long and so hard are gone, we let alot of things get in the way, I put alot of needs on the back burner thinking when he was done shooting for the goal, he could attend to them. that was 7 years ago. After counseling then he tried for a little while, but it slipped away, and then there was always something more important......didnt need to be anything specific, but just something.I tried and tried to let him know how I felt, we need more time together etc...., I figured out I will never be able to trust him again with my feelings, our sex life went to maybe once a month 4 years ago, I tried to bury myself in volunteer work, kids, parties etc IT DOESNT WORK . decided to tell him 8 months ago, if he could work on self esteem, intimacy issues with a individual counselor, and I saw real change, I would consider staying. long story short, I saw alot of change, but short lived and very phony ,maybe to me, but I would know. I found out 2 weeks ago when I said I would probably file after the first of the year, how much I really mean to him. He said "NO" it will be before then.....he wants it done asap. (even though he doesnt really want it ) It comes down to money...he has closed all joint credit cards, I am unemployed for 2 months now, and now it is time for me to beg, and the reason he wants this done now, is he doesnt want income from this year reported!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He has forbidden me from telling the children, who know something is wrong anyway, told me he doesnt want them in on my pity party!!!!!!!!!!!! ok so where does this leave me....now I will come clean with something Im sure you guys will crucify me for. I do have a male friend OH MY GOD!<BR>am I very happy to have him in my life? yes, will I leave my husband of 15 years FOR him? NO.........I am leaving for the right reasons trust me. I will date other men, I will try to be objective in this, and see what the hell it is I have been missing in my life all these years. Sorry this is so long but I needed to vent.....I have come to learn that I will never be happy with him, he can never fill the void I have for emotional needs. Why continue to make him try? I think I have waited long enough, and probably have driven him to the brink of insanity , making him try. I just think it isnt even in his genetic makeup. as for the other man... I knew one day that this would happen.... all the years of sadness, reading books on gods psychiatry, hoping to keep this together. I knew that one day I would have a huge test. Maybe I failed the test, I am sorry for that. I have had many other opportunities , but have been able to work through them. This one is too much , I will be smart, I will not fall into the frying pan, but I will at least with or without this other man.......never settle for what is not truly in my heart again.

I am sitting here this morning, reading this very interesting thread... and crying, as usual.<P>My stbx is telling me he can be the H I need. He's said these words before. Over and over again. He never listened to me over the years when I told him how unhappy I was. He worked, he cheated, and he loved me, in that order. He didn't listen to the anguish in my voice until I did the unthinkable. I had an affair. As most know, it lasted three months and resulted on one time of intercourse. It did wake him up. He finally heard me. But he wouldn't change. He wouldn't stop working so much, he wouldn't stop cheating (which was awakened anew since I had cheated) and he still said he loved me. The last year and a half has been hell. <P>So now, 19 days before the divorce is final, he is crying, and saying he'll change. God, what do I believe? I've heard these words so often before. <P>And this time, what's different, is that I have found someone new, someone who already has done the work, someone who doesn't have to change, someone who hasn't cheated on me or anyone else, someone who brings comfort, not pain.<P>Oh, the guilt!! Because I have always loved my stbx. And in so many ways, he too is a "good man" just not a good man for me.<P>I am happy for you Nikki. I am right where you are sometimes. <P>But at the break of dawn today, I am sitting alone in a dark house, getting ready to move, getting ready to be divorced, and feeling such pain that it is unbelievable.

<BR>{{{{{Sheryl}}}}}<P>Its never too late to save a marriage.<P>Bystander

I hear you.............Loud and Clear. It isnt about if you are happy to be done with this, noone ever is when it is a situation like this.I have found a book called "good people , bad marriage" read it, it is good. <BR>I still even after all this fighting with myself over the years, trying to keep it together, am sad, sad that I tried as hard as I could and it couldnt be fixed, sad that I tried to make him something he isnt, but more sad that he is so angry with me.....he doesnt know about the other man, at least he would never tell me if he did ( partly why our marriage is breaking up, he cant deal with reality) if he found out now, he would confront me, but out of anger. I always wanted him to be a little jealous about something, sometimes men would make blatent passes at me , I would tell him, and he would say " you know those guys are such kidders"<BR>kidders? why, because I would never leave someone like you? because I wasnt good enough? sucked to be me sometimes. Thanks for not crucifying me, I have done it enough to myself, and if anyone else finds out they will not understand why, only that "they were so happy" it was her fault. I guess the consequences suck. thanks again

BYSTANDER............<P>I can understand what you are saying, but sometimes, you are fighting human nature, and expecting someone to be what they are clearly not , is too hurtful to do, if you love that person enough sometimes it is time to say lets stop living beyond our means.

just one more thing...........sorry guys<P>this other man and I have been friends for a long time, like a girlfriend . when things changed, not sexual,when we realized we had feelings for eachother, we actually stopped contact, but we did it twice, we are both very moral and wished to do the right thing. unfortunalty....We cannot, but we both agree on the fact that if this is something that is real, it will be there and we needed to make sure our marriages came first. Do you know how nice it is to have a valued friend,(of the opposite sex ) someone you can tell anything, and I mean anything to? I didnt until I met him and now as i have said, if I live my life from here on end with or without him, I will know that that is maybe not what all marriages are, but that , for me, that is what I have always wanted. A friend, a partner......everything else comes second in a relationship....money, status, friends.............I could have had it all in some peoples book, but just not in my book.

Ah Bystander, thank you for the hugs.<P>I quoted you on another thread this morning, and forgot your name, can you believe it? I called you, "I can't remember his name!" You are wise,my friend.<P>Here's the thing... I know I could try again with David. I do. But the pain is so profound, so deep, that it can't heal unless there is a major surgery, not just a balm. I think David offers a balm, as he has in years past. I don't trust him. I don't trust his words. I've listened before, Bystander, you know I have. And I've been disappointed. I can't live through it again. Even if you think that I'm being overly dramatic (and maybe I am )... it would kill my spirit with one final blow.<P>Hugs back atcha Bystander. You're one of the good guys, you know. <P>Sheryl<P><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited October 25, 2000).]