Dear Mike, Madeline, and so tired,<P>Thanks for all your responses........I guess I left out the part where we (or should I say I) started trying to fix this 7 years ago..........did the crazy thing, tried to tell him it wouldnt work, tried to get him to leave. I, through counseling, at that time realized I owed more than that. So I gave, and for about 1 year it was better, I watch him continue to neglect me and thought, oh man. I will not go in to detail, but I have begged him for many years since then to seek help with me because I knew the feelings I was having. well.........after doing almost anything to try and make this work, to stay. I decided in february I couldnt do it any longer, I was finished. I am the type of person who was easily taken for granted and neglected,only because I have been taught that early on in my life, My feelings do not count, and I have lived that all my life. I am not telling you I am a martyr, but I just had alot of issues to deal with. So at that time, this spring, I let it all go, told my husband I would only try one more time if he sought his own counseling and dealt with his issues honestly, openly and made an attempt to drop his arrogance and be more of what I needed. He agreed, after telling me he didnt understand the problem because I met all of his needs. Long story short. I waited and watched for 8 months as he continued to control, manipulate and dance around the "Real Issues".Thank god for my counselor, because she has helped me to deal with all my issues, slowly but surely. We even tried counseling together to no avail, I was angry, he analyzed everything. When the anger left me.........I had nothing to replace it with, and that is a bad feeling. Am I being unforgiving? am I being a witch?<BR>YES but did I try as hard as I can? ...yes<P>in summary...I am sad for the loss of my family unit, but I know the way things were and there is no good reason to continue on with all the strain and tension this relationship has brought. I hope that for the childrens sake, we can be friends. I am watching him now manipulate the children....he went out and bought his own van yesterday, brand new with a tv in it and everything!!!!!!!!! and that is how he has always dealt with issues, and I have to tell you I have a new mantra. No amount of money, cars, dinners, remodeling or vacations can fill the void I feel every day. So why make him keep doing it, he will never really get it. All I ever wanted was a partner, a friend, and a lover. Sorry I am so long winded, but I am really done, and look forward to finally being happy with whatever the day brings, and not having to blame someone, because that makes a very bitter, nasty person thanks nikkilynn

Now I dont know if I made any sense up there.................<BR>I cannot tell how I would try and try to get him to understand that it was only about I needed to be told he loved me, and to see him happy when he came home, and wanted to be with us, or me. It wasnt about what everyone else thought, or what needed to be done. It was supposed to be about our life together. I put all the wants and needs on the back burner because it was my place to do the right thing to get him through school, and build his practice etc.I always thought there would be time later for the love stuff, and for the good parts.....I cant wait any longer, I do not think it is ever coming. Dont you think 15 years is a long time to hold it in guys?

nikkilynn2,<P>OK more details. It sounds like your husband may be "stuck in his ways". When my wife and I went to counseling for me it was one of the most enlightening points in my life. I learned so much about my wife, but I learned even more about myself. From what I have read, most men have a big thing against counseling - and to be honest so did I, at first. The one difference with our counselor that I liked, was that he was a psychologist that dealt with all kinds of family and personal issues. A very well respected man. So while we did focus on the marriage, he also focused a lot on each one of us, individually.<P>Unfortunately, from what you say, your husband is not at the point where he knows he NEEDs to change. In that respect, I feel bad for both of you. It may be that he won't realize what he had until you are gone and that is the worst feeling ever (take it from me).<P>But, I will still pray for healing to come to you both. Like so many have said here on this board, you never know what is going to happen in the future. Maybe some time will go by and your husband will go through a transformation. Maybe at that time you will still have enough love left for him to allow him back. Then again maybe not. It is all in God's hands.<P>My final comment relates to something you wrote in your post - something my wife and I spoke indepth about when we were in counseling. She seems similar to you in that she was always raised to believe that her feelings, wants and desires were subservient to everyone else's. And that she should always focus on making others happy first. That was a big issue with us, ever since I knew her. It really bothered me because everytime I asked her what she wanted to do, she would say "oh I don't care, whatever you want is fine". We would actually get into arguments because I knew it was not right to do "just what I wanted". In fact it became so difficult to make any decisions about us because I was forced to try and guess what she really wanted, then think about what I wanted, weigh both options and then pick what I thought was best. That made it very difficult on me - I often felt selfish and guilty whenever I chose to do what I wanted.<P>The counselor put it into perspective with us in the following example: He said "xxxxx, what is something you hate that Mike does NOT do around the house?" She answered "take the kitchen trash to the can outside". He asked me "Mike, is there a reason why you don't do that?". I said "not really, she never asks me to and most of the time I don't even know it is full". She then said "Well that is because the couple times I asked you before you said you would do it, then you forgot. So it just became easier for me to do - I KNEW it would get done and I did not have to pester you". The counselor said to HER, that was part of our problem. He said that she let me get away with too much. He said we are all creatures of habit and that I was not a "bad" person simply because I did not "take out the trash" rather that since she did it, I became accustomed to her doing it and I forgot about it. It was up to her to tell me she did not like the fact that I did not do it. That would not have been "pestering me" it would have been her telling me what "she wanted".<P>Looking back on our relationship she so often took on the image of martyr, doing things instead of causing a fuss. But "fuss" is just what she needed to do. Maybe those few times she asked me to take out the garbage I did screw up and forgot, BUT that does not mean that I would forget all the time or that I did not and would not do it. She needed to "call" me on situations like that. If I did not know she was upset or mad, how could I learn? <P>If she did something that hurt me, I would let her know in a non-threatening way. And guess what? She would do her best not to do whatever it was, again. She never gave me that opportunity - The opportunity to learn "what bothered her" and how I could learn to avoid hurting her. She lived in her own little world of "pain" not telling anyone. That is until she exploded.<P>OK enough about me and my wife - the reason I tell this story is because the counselor told my wife - "if you leave Mike and go on to someone else, there is a good chance you will take on the same roles in that relationship. And guess what? You will be right back in the same situation! Why? Not because Mike is bad guy or the new man is a bad guy, but because it is how YOU are acting in these situations." And that is so true. If she only spoke up and let me know all the things I did wrong - WHEN I did them, I could have learned. But I never got the chance. She finally did and I have changed. But in her eyes it is too late. That is not totally my fault and when she feels she can't trust me anymore she should try to remember that it was not just me in this marriage.<P>Remember that when you deal with your husband or whoever it may be down the road. You need to change yourself first, then people around you will respond in the ways that you have always wanted.<P>Just like my wife, I can read in your words that you are a product of your environment growing up. There is nothing wrong with that. You are not a bad person. But the problems with your marriage are not just your husband's fault - you have to remember that you share some of the blame. I don't say that in a bad way, I only say it for now you have the opportunity to help yourself grow.<P>Sorry for talking so much about my situation, but I often feel that we can learn a lot through real-life examples.<P>May the Lord Bless and Keep you.<P>Mike

Dear Mike, <BR> I couldnt agree more, I was the one who needed to change, when it came to things that bothered me, after the first counseling 7 years ago, I did learn I needed to tell him to do things. I dont think it is about doing things, it isnt about the garbage. when it comes down to it........it is really about , at least in my case, how much you respect and love the other person. Can you still look at that person and say, I feel special when I am with you? If you can both answer yes to this..........work on the marriage because i beleive that is right. I cannot finish my thought right now because of children , but I will write more later