OK, my turn,<P>What is it with these angry WS? its my weekend, 11 yo s has been sick all week. Has not been to school. OK, I get him, ask some questions, Christ, the STBX has been feeding him the wrong foods. I won't even touch the fact that she leaves him home all by himself when he is sick, and her excuse is, "its ok, i can see the house, so if it starts to burn down I can get there." Like that's what an 11 yo is thinking when he is sick at home alone.<P>Anyway, i figure out what he needs, stuff it in him over his objections, (STBX lets kids tell her what she should do, she hates authority, and does not want them to have to deal with authority) and lo and behold, he is cured. Feels better, and is back to normal, albeit slowly.<P>OK, both kids have soccer games, STBX is at work all day saturday. I leave to take kids to a Halloween fair, and get home late. Kids have a great time. Was in line for 1 hour waiting for a great hay ride, and the woman ahead asks me if its my weekend. I say yes. She is a pediatric nurse at a huge hospital, and says "You are a great dad, the kids are having a great time, and if all XH were like me, there wouldn't be as many screwed up kids." OK, so I get home at 11, theres a message on the answering machine from STBX, what's the soccer game scores.<P>I didn't call back, too late. 9 am, STBX calls. Why didn't I call back? Where was I? Let me talk to the kids. OK, so she talks to kids, then back to me. why wasn't 11 yo S in bed by 9PM? This is bad parenting. If you are going to do this, I won't call you to ask your opinion about sick kids. I tell her that's her choice, homework is all caught up, kids are feeling great. she continues on, berating me on not handling them correctly. Finally I asked her why she couldn't let me have the kids for 24 hours and she was interfering with me? So she continues on. "I was just checking on MY son." Finally, I told her I had to get breakfast, and hung up. Then I came around the corner, and 8 yo d is listening.<P>I sat down, watery eyes, and sat there. 8 yo daughter gives me a hug. i thank her. give her a hug, and get back up and get going for breakfast again.<P>At this point I don't have a f!@#$%^&*( clue as to how to tell the kids, or what to tell the kids. So I don't tell them anything. I shouldn't anyway, but STBX is so out of control! <P>Anyway, half way through breakfast, the phone rings. Guess who?<P>She is near tears, trying hard not to cry, and apologizes. Then I get my used to be normal self, and try to comfort her, and tell her its ok. Crap, i just lost all that I worked for, I just know she knows how to twist the truth to make me look bad in front of other people. And once she started in on the bad parenting, I started to get fearful, because her lawyer did not support our mediation agreement, not enough money, too much time with kids.<P>Plus, if the MLC ends, do I want her back? ick, (canadian translation, yuck) but I did leave the door open to her.<P>Now I hear through d that first OM and STBX had something go wrong. I'm sure its now onto OM #2. OM#1 wouldn't have lasted very long at all anyway, once he actually lived with her.<P>I don't mind if we get divorced as long as she allows me time with the kids, and stops interfering.<P>Christ, she calls me up with kid problems, and I tell her the solution. She says thanks, great solution, and uses it successfully. Its not like I hold back from solving problems, its just my list of what's important is so different than STBX's and if we used hers, i would be a servant to her volunteer job. It is 24X7 if she allows it.<P>Anyway, I am just thankful that kids had a great time, and 8 yo d said it was the best time since the disney trip. <P>So my question is, "Will the kids ever see that just because I moved out, that I am not the monster that their mom fights with?" BTW, kids also know that I am patient, and I teach patience to them, all the time.<P>I don't know if they got the message, but when I handed them the tickets, I told them that these are expensive (and they are) and this is what I work hard for, so we can afford great times like these! Let's go!<P>OK, will they figure it out? How long will it take them to figure out?<P>OH yeah, if you think STBX doesn't want to impose authority onto them, they are in jail here, they are responsible for manners, for cooperation, for school work, for being on time for their own activities, for their own bedrooms! no one else is, and they know who is in charge here, authority exists, whether they like it or not! (ps, its loving authority, or should I say boundaries)<P>tom

Tom:<P>You are a great but very frustrated father. They will know it. I can't say when, probably not until they are dads or moms themselves, because everything inbetween for a kid is pretty self-centered. All I can say is that my dad is my hero. He went thru such crap with my mom's cheating and then taking him to the cleaners with her lawyer. But thru it he was dignified, and she was the one foaming at the mouth. I admire him more than any person on the planet. He's not a rich guy or educated guy, just a regular guy but I think more highly of him than anyone. Ok, I guess you get the picture, and so will your kids just by their day to day living with a dad who's got class and a mom whose just got a lot of guys and is loose on most stuff. <P>------------------<BR><BR>Kathy

Dear Tom, <P>These kids are both at a very sensitive age for a family split. Your strength and reliability will make a huge difference in how well they cope. They will eventually appreciate the limits you set. Probably <B>very</B> soon, if not already. Kids get their sense of security from knowing that there are boundaries! Not being dumb, they can see the difference between high-functioning and low-functioning, even in parenting. Even your d who takes after STBX, I'd wager.<P>Just keep documenting that flaky behavior (leaving sick kid alone, non-nutritious "foods," etc.) Raise a stink only when you have to, but your documentation may help in increasing your time-share down the road. Like when they start asking to come live with you. Her succession of OM are going to get real wearing on them too. Do BPD's have a reputation for long strings of flings?<P>Keep up the good work.

Although I wouldn't leave my 11 year old home alone when she was sick, a lot of people, perhaps the majority of working parents, do. One of my co-workers just did leave her 11 year old home for almost a week, and she sure can't see the house. If she is actually in sight of the house I really don't see anything wrong with it, unless he is delirious or something. Certainly just about every farmer on earth would not hesitate to leave a child of that age in the house alone while out in the barn, and oftentimes you can't see the house from the barn. <P>Somehow I am having trouble understanding how the "right" foods cured your son - maybe it was just time. An 11 year old is old enough to have a pretty good idea of the relationship between what he eats and its effect on how he feels short-term - if eating chocolate pudding when he is nauseous makes him worse, he'll stop eating it. By the time they were only a year or so older than that, my kids could handle the milking without any adults, babysit, and plan and make dinner. <P>IMHO, I think you should pick your battles, and stop worrying about the things that I think are just differences in parenting styles. <P>I wonder if when you didn't call back, the real reason that she was upset was because she was worried - worried that you'd been in an accident or even that you had kidnapped the kids. Not that I think you would kidnap them, but that doesn't mean she might not worry about it. <p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited October 23, 2000).]

Tom,<BR>Sounds as if you are doing well with the kids....<BR>Stbx and you both seem to have different parenting styles, but there seems to be little risk in terms of dangerous behaviour re the kids. <BR>Question...if 11 y o son was ill and with you when you were working, would you have stayed home or got a sitter? You should try to weigh up what you would have done in the same circumstances as each child is different...some can be left alone at 11, while some are older and cannot!!!!!!<P>I agree with Nellie....sometimes the kids need to start figuring out the consequences of feeding themselves the "wrong" stuff...you can tell them and provide the things son needs to make him better...but he should understand the cause and effect too.....sort of a happy medium between forcing and laissez faire...(again easy to advise...not easy to do!!!!)<P>Perhaps it was in some ways a cry for attention from him??? (Just a thought)<P>This is all still very new for you all...and when kids ar away from stbx, she is probably scard and insecure...in that kids will "forget her" etc etc.......and bond "more" with you....this is a threatening time for her.<P>Just keep on what you are doing in terms of kids...sounds as if you are doing great, especially if kids enjoying being with you...and not just for special treats and experiences...<P>You should try to set a time for the kids to call their mom each day....then it is up to them...and out of your "control" and kids will feel more secure in all this and this is what they need...as does stbx...maybe then she will"get off your back in terms of judging your parenting and you hers...ie it might just diffuse the situation which makes her so angry.<P>It does seem that the kids , or rather parenting styles and what is best for your kids are becoming the "new battle" in terms of who is the "better parent" (IMHO) Diffuse this if you can with stbx....<BR>Kids will figure out who you both are, love you both and understand eventually what each of you are about in terms of parenting. <P>Just keep the lines of communication open with the kids.....and take care of yourself as well.<P>

Thanks MB friends,<P>No, I would never leave an 11 y old home alone sick, not even a 15 year old. My mom is a nurse, has been for 50 years with some of the best doctors in the boston system, (she had even made rounds with Dr. Saulk) and she imparted plenty of health wisdom to our family. I could go on with great stories about how she got my dad to the hospital to have his heart attack IN the hospital, etc.) which is why he is alive and kicking very well 15 years afterwards. Lives in the same town, she would certainly watch him, and has in the past, until now. And either I would take him, or work from home.<P>Anyway, yes, it was the food she was NOT giving him, but was allowing him the wrong foods which dehydrated him, and continued an improper feedback spiral.<P>Yes, Nellie, I would agree, although STBX came from a family who believed in alot of old wive's tales about health. They don't have any idea because MIL uses illnesses, real and imagined, to control FIL. <red flag icon> STBX used sicknesses to get attention from parents who weren't there for her. <ditto red flag> And STBX thinks that because she is an EMT, she has the . . . .<BR>skip that, I don't have a clue as to what the STBX thinks<P><I> Hey, someone needs to tell Steve H. that his bulletin board smilies needs a <B> RED FLAG ICON </B> for us idiots that were colorblind when dating! </I><P>Anyway, I have a hard time figuring out if the structure I put in place is working with 11 yo son. He has yet to open up with me, but I will keep trying to make it safe for him, although he makes his life difficult when he acts like his mother! He is learning, but he is stubborn, like his mom.<P>He volunteered to stay overnight extra once, but the apartment is not conducive to outside fun, and i wasn't on top of my stuff then.<P>Karenna,<P>right after that telephone call, I was tempted to call in the GAL's and get an official viewpoint, but not yet. I need my own house where I want it, so that they will be persuaded, not "forced" by the courts. although I won't back down if i get challenged.<P>tom<BR><p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited October 23, 2000).]

Tom, <BR>You are doing the best for your kids, I know. These kinds of issues are going to crop up in your relationship with your x, it just will, so my best advice is try to be accomodating without putting the kids at danger, and as long as both of you don't bring the kids into the middle of it all, they will be ok. <P>This is just one of those things that happens in divorced families. If the two of you can be adults ( and I know for her that is asking a lot) and keep the kids' best interests at heart, they will survive this mess. <P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Susan

Tom,<BR>I was 18yo when my parents divorced. Both of my parents were physically abusive to me--my dad was and still is an active alcoholic--my mom is untreated manic/depressive. As you might imagine, that divorce was a long time coming.<P>The reason I tell you all this is that, at the time we all split up, I thought my mom was almost 100% to blame. After all she hit me and she was insane. It took time, and some maturity, but eventually I did realize that there was a lot more going on between a husband and wife. Kids will not understand some of the subtle things that go on between you and your STBX, but they will see who cares about them, who makes time for them, and who reacts calmly and reasonably. I think they will also understand that this is not easy for you and that you are sad about it. It will probably be a great thing for them to see you dealing with sadness and admitting that this is hard. <P>I guess what I'm trying to say is that kids will not see the X in the same way that you do, because they don't see the little jabs that go on between you. They see her as their mom. And they also do not see you as "the monster who moved out and wrecked everything." But they do see that you care about them and put down your work to be with them. They do see that you are trying the best that you can. They do see that they love you. Eventually, as they grow older, mature, have relationships of their own, and have children of their own, they will more fully understand all the sacrifice that you gave them. <P>So, chin up. You are doing a great job. Keep it up, for their sake, and if you need a friend to "whine" to, here we are!<P> CJ

Tom,<P>I think you are doing a great job of putting up with the kind of crap that she is dishing out. It seems so unfair that you get to be calm and reasonable and still responsible for fixing all of her problems with the kids (because she can't reason through), and yet don't benefit in any way.<P>I have urged you in the past - and I will continue to urge you to get those children away from her influence at any cost. My x had a family w/ money, got custody of my 10yo D, and it scares me the way her personality has developed. She loathes her father, is smarter than he is, and uses whatever means she can to control him. She has learned all his tricks, and treats him with the same disrespect and lack of regard that he used to use on me. She is so difficult to handle in my house, that I find myself looking forward to the end of the weekend so that I can send her home.<P>I can only hope that your situation develops differently, but I fear for you. I used to rationalize all my fear with the same platitudes that some of the other posters used here, but even the influence of being with her Fri - Sun was not enough to counter the damage that her dad's family inflicted. They are hysterical, bigoted, uneducated, vengeful, and obsessive people, and I still try to hope that the damage to her will lesson as she matures.<P>I hope that this post scares you - it should. I deeply regret some of the choices that I was forced to make - like discontinuing the custody battle when I was $20,000 in debt rather than go for $40,000. Hey, it's only money?!! I wish that I'd know more about mental illness at the time so that I could have pinned one on him. Like being an ex-drug dealer wasn't enough. (Can you tell that I'm still sometimes mad about the way I was burned because of his family's money?)<P>I wish you luck, Tom. And I hope that things turn out better for you than they did for me.<P>I'm surprised with all the family law the Karenna practices that she doesn't think that it's intolerable to see the kids with an unstable parent. Or does her disease allow her to parent effectively?<P>H

Thanks, H.<P>The disease would be difficult to prove, and it could destroy her career. I am not into that. Hmmmm, 11 yo son is starting to get very slimy. He doesn't realize how much i do see, but he doesn't like me as much because I call him on the stuff.<P>Karenna does believe in what you say, and Karenna has said that she personally "hates" to see the sick parent get the kids. but she also knows that I don't want to rip the family through court for someone who is basically a good person, just very difficult to live with, and at an age when an angry, difficult divorce means more permanent scars than at different times, due to development.<BR>One of the personality tests I read somewhere had negative points for a messy divorce between 10 and 13.<P>The disease makes it difficult to parent, but at some point, she may wake up. I explain lots of my points of view, and 8 yo d does get it. and she will continue to get it, its now 11 yo s that I need to spend more time with.<P>I hear you, and although I agree, there are the subtle ways as expressed above, to show the love and support. Like Plan A and boundaries.<P>8 yo d was as defiant as ever when FIL told her to take her hands off the wall. 8 yo d told me that FIL does not boss me around in my house. I was laughing at that, as FIL loves the control as much as STBX. Neither of them likes me as I am considered too independent, and I don't listen to them at all. (basically I was brought up to make my own decisions based upon everyone's input.)<P>thanks again, H. the thought is in the back of my mind, just not ready for that yet. We will see, though. If I can document stuff enough, then it will make it a whole lot easier.<P>BPD is my analysis, based upon my readings. Does she fit in the legal questionaire? no. because it is not consistent and full blown. Do I get pattern matching between examples in the book and real life? yes. But she has other compulsive disorders, which come and go depending upon her emotional state. She actually moves up and down the left spectrum of the compulsive disorders.<P>take care, and best wishes to you. I always appreciate your point of view, as I do everyone's here.<P>tom<BR>

Tom:<P>Remember, too, it's the nice guy that gets stabbed in the back.<P>H

ouch!<P>what is that red stuff on my shirt?

Tom,<BR> <BR>Oooo. You just jumped to number one on my prayer list. BPD is so very hard to recognize and prove, and even harder to get the suffering person to admit. My mom is bipolar and to this day she denies it and won't get treatment, whereas everyone who knows her in the least, KNOWS that she is bipolar. <P>Boy, I have to agree with Harlequin on this one. Your kids may very literally be in danger. Sorry to have to tell you that. You need to seriously consider ways to be more involved with the kids or get them outta there or something. BTW, as a child, I knew my mom was mentally ill from the time I was about 10yo, so it is likely and even probably that your children know too. They just may not want to admit it to themselves. However, in their eyes, even though she is nuts, she will still always be their mom. <P>You are in a tough situation. I'll think about it some more and let you know my thoughts, but meanwhile, don't give up or grow weary. Your children need you. Also, since I am the "product" of a BPD, alcoholic, divorced family, if you have any questions I'll try to answer them as honestly as possible. <P>You are in my constant thoughts and prayers.<P> CJ

I am certain my H is suffering from depression, some of the descriptions in that book on BPD reminded me of him, and I don't like much about his "new" (or rather the OW's) parenting style, but that doesn't mean I think my kids are in any physical danger when they are with him. Nothing I have read seems to indicate to me that WhenIfindthetime's kids are either. If she is able to function as an EMT, a very stressful career, I would think it would be extremely difficult to prove that any mental illness she might have was severe enough to impair her functioning. I think people should be careful not to get carried away.

BPD is Borderline Personality Disorder, being caught between neurosis and psychosis, in layman's term, a very, very, overly sensitive , needy person, who is characterized by fear of failure and fear of abandonment. It manifests itself in overly sensitivity to certain actions, and if fear of failure is sensed, will run away, or if fear of abandonment is sensed, will run away before any real abandonment. Common use of anger to keep people away from seeing the real insides of them. But she is a highly functioning version, which means that she is still functional in society, to what degree is she providing adequate versus the best?<P>Years ago, she used to come up to me and say, "the new <first name> is here. Can we do XYZ?" <red flag> I was meeting new people all the time. <P>You might think BiPolar Disorder, and it is close, but BiPolar is abnormally large swings between excitement and depression as compared to what a "normal" reaction would be. She has some of that too.<P>I think she is afflicted with mid life crises, depression, a change in her hormones as she is 42, BPD, she has BDD for sure, Body Dismorphic Disorder, which is characterized by bulemia or obsessive weightlifting. She also has alzheimers in her family, and poor memory, or that is the convenient excuse for EVERYTHING.<P>OK, a legal fight would cause her to act like an animal backed into a corner, and still having them visit her on weekends? Would that be better than being a great dad, and showing the kids what it means to be a good person? good manners, good communication, lots of patience, not afraid to try new things, etc? without the anger and the extremely hurt feelings that would go along with it? She would not hesitate to stoop to any level to make me look bad at any time, with or without kids. It is in there, just don't know if and when I need to use it. She also knows that I have this card to use if I choose to.<P>But as an EMT, she has this added layer of protection of police and fire men in local affairs who would stand up and say she is great, as an EMT, what's the problem. <P>Also, she would have a school get up and tell anyone that she is a great teacher with kids, two years ago, she got the outstanding teacher of the year award. Of course, that was at our expense, but I spend alot of time at my job also. I supported her on everything until her volunteer EMT stuff conflicted with my career.<P>And, to top it off, I have made mistakes that have heightened her sense of abandonment, <B> without knowing it </B>. Working long hours, working with primarily women, not being as tactful as I could be about sensitive issues. Having a hard time turning 40, didn't do anything wrong, but was easily thrown off balance with an minor EA at work. Other person was not interested, I was just ripe for any kind of attention, especially from a flirt.<P>So she has her reasons, although she never talked to me, and if she did, and I disagreed, anger was the only language.<P>So do i think an outright legal fight is worthwhile? no, as the damage she could do then, would be much, much worse.<P>but, keep talking to me about it, it might change.<P>tom<P>

I just had a surprising insight yesterday. My mother has come to stay with me to keep me off my feet for the next few weeks. She and my dad divorced when I was 18. I always blamed her for most of it, while recognizing that both of them were pretty immature and insecure in a lot of areas. <P>Suddenly, this week I realized that I have to have a lot more respect for my mom than I ever gave her credit for deserving. She may have been passive aggressive and had plenty of problems, but she did fix the things she had power over. <P>Rather than keep on taking what my dad was dishing out, she changed herself, took responsibility, and said, "This is what I am doing now. Here is where I am. This is what I am. You are welcome to do it here with me, or suit yourself." <P>He left and suited himself, eventually filing for divorce because she wouldn't chase him and his pie-in-the-sky unworkable dreams around anymore.<P>So, how children view us just can't be the most important thing to keep in mind. It may take YEARS of maturation before they can see your perspective on some things.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>So, how children view us just can't be the most important thing to keep in mind. It may take YEARS of maturation before they can see your perspective on some things.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is SOOO true. I never realized how much my mother had to deal with when I was growing up until I had a child of my own. I called her and apologized for every rotten thing I had ever done as a kid and she just laughed and said "So now you know." But even then I had underestimated. I'm still learning just how much she had to deal with and how difficult it must have been for her. I have a ton of respect and admiration for her now. <P>

Thanks, Karenna and TS.<P>Although I did not mean to imply that what the kids thought was the most important, I do wonder. However, Plan A is about being yourself, setting boundaries is about requesting a certain amount of respect, and not LBing.<P>So as long as I do that, keep my word, stress what I think/believe in important for me to teach them, then they will have the choice to use it or not.<P>The "only" problem is that my hard work, hard play, take responsibility, independent thought and actions' belief is white and black offset by the STBX's blame oriented, codependency and lack of taking responsibility and tendency to avoid and run away will make the decision for the kids difficult since they as kids being self centered will take the easy route, and that will make a more difficult hump in growth in the future.<P>The one hope, and reason why I choose to not to have a full blown court case, is that when they are in the very vulnerable phase of age, they are still mom oriented, and to take that away would be more damaging, <BR>as long as I have lots of access.<P>When they start to want independence, that is when I will be there, and will be able to provide the most benefit to their growth, as long as STBX will let them, or I would push in the courts.<P>OK guys, is this totally flawed thinking, or too patient, too nice approach? Am I in dreamland?<P>tom

Tom, <BR>The man I am seeing now was married for 27 yrs. They had a 11 yr old son at the time of divorce. She used the son against him, made up abuse stories, tried to have no visitation with him or his son, etc. Al in all, a very ugly mess and the stories told to this little boy would make your toes curl...the courts did let my friend have visitaion, every other weekend and Wed nights, with three weeks in the summer.<P>Fast forward to last Feb.He is now 16. She brings him to my friend for his Wed night visit. The son and her had an argument and she tells Dad he can have him! <BR>He has lived with his Dad since Feb. Things have never been better. He does not want to even see his Mom because of all the hateful things she said about his Dad to him to poison his mind against his dad. I have had several talks with the son. The stories she told him about his dad were awful, and now that he is older he can see it for what it is. <BR>So, my advice is be the adult here. Make things as easy on the kids as you can. They will grow up and see the situation for what it is later on. <BR>And parents, lets never do this to our kids. In my opinion, they will be changed because of the divorce, but can grow into good people. By trying to poison their mind against the other parent, we put them in a poor position to grow up healthy. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

Hi again, Tom,<P>I like what Karenna said:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So, how children view us just can't be the most important thing to keep in mind. It may take YEARS of maturation before they can<BR>see your perspective on some things.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>and how it relates to what you said:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>since they as kids being self centered will take the easy route<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>See, the easy route is to develop the bad habits of their mom. It's very nice to project all the bad things that happen to you on someone else and run from the blame.<P>I still hope that my D will turn out all right - but I don't expect that she will be <B><I>really</B></I> ok until her twenties. She wavers now between controlling, manipulative behavior to get her way, complete with deliberately destructive acts to make a point; to discussion with me about her dad's neglect. I end up having to tell her not to disrespect her father, and usually am tempted to tell her that is her choice where she lives.<P>At this age she doesn't want to live w/ me because her father balances neglect with over-indulgence. Who wouldn't want to hang around if <B><I>this</B></I> time we really <B><I>did</B></I> get to go to Disney?<P>So my patience, calm rationalization, whatever has done nothing to change the course of her maturation. Being the steady one who keeps promises does nothing to stop her accusing me of not keeping them is weather or an act of God prevents me from giving her instant gratification. I don't even know if less influence/time with him would have changed things. She knows what she does is wrong, but she still reenacts the conflict that she's learned from those contentious people.<P>H