This journey through infidelity has been a horrid one. I have learned so much about myself, learned about how to be a better partner, learned about love and forgiveness, but the one thing I could not seem to do was forgive the OW. <P>I have been reading religious texts and have gotten a lot of inspiration from them. It makes me feel humble and inspires me to keep trying to treat my H as someone worthy of love. <P>I recently watched the tv mini-series "Jesus". The scene where the adulteress is dragged out in the streets and Jesus says, "He who is without sin cast the first stone" made me feel like a big fat fake. Like I was being Holier than Thou and putting myself up on a moral pedestal. Doesn't the love and forgiveness extend to her too?<P>Still, I couldn't stop making a lot of this stuff the OW's fault. Yes, she instigated a lot of stuff and made my life miserable, but it's as we have all said, she wouldn't be there if it weren't for the WS. <P>Those were just words to me until today. I don't know what happened, but when I accepted that this was the WS's choice and that HE is the one who invited her into our lives and allowed her to stay there, the anger towards her just melted away. My blaming her, I was not dealing with the problem.<P>Every night I prayed for forgiveness and enlightenment for the H, but could never do that for the OW. I am there now, and I think that means another step towards freedom and healing.<P>Just wanted to share and see if anyone else has had this experience?<P>Today I wished the ex and the ow well and told him I wished he would marry her and finally make an honest relationship out of their 8 year lie.

popeye,<P>I too would find it hard to forgive the OW too if I were in your shoes.<P>My experience has a different twist. Two and one-half years ago I left my x or I should say he "locked" me out. I rented a house, set it up from scratch with help from friends, family and my adult children. All of my belongings were being kept from me by him, along with anything from the marital home which would have added to my living comfort. About 3 months into this, there was a knock at my door. A female who had been a 'friend' to both of us stopped by to chat. She could see had badly I was beating myself up over my filing for a divorce. She told me to sit down there was something she wanted to tell me. She went on to confess she had particpated in an affair with my x. Told me detailed accounts of when, where etc. ALL of the dirty details. I finally had to make her stop talking. Her confessions were more than my mind could bear.<P>As their relationship had begun in the late 1980's went into the early 90's, then it was over, so she said. After thinking it over for 24 hours I called her and told her to call my x and tell him that I knew ALL now. She did. Then the confessions over the next 5 months from the x's various guy friends. MORE women over the years. From visiting a brothel 30 days after we said our vows to the end with his then current affair, a married woman. What was worse, I had NO idea. Yep, educated, professional woman. mother of two is clueless. Felt like a total fool.<P>One last thing, the 'confessing' OW did go to divorce court with me on two occasions. You should have seen the x's face! She and I don't talk any more, she served no further purpose after her confession and court appearances. I do forgive her. Maybe because of her 'honesty', (if a cheater with your spouse is ever truly honest) But it did make it easier to let go of.<P>I am saying a prayer for you. May you be granted peace of mind and heart.<P>Ragamuffin<P>

Hi Popeye,<P>I address some of this on my "Treacherous OP" thread on GQII.<P>This particular OW threatened, harrassed, etc. me on her own. I was able to separate her behavior from my H and fully hold my H accountable for "inviting" her into my space and our marriage. I know she also encouraged some of his "bad" behavior, but HE had the choice to say no.<P>My struggle is w/H and how he could not see the "evil" in her and why he felt no need to protect me and our family from her "invasions".<P>I had a conversation w/her early on and told her that there are millions of women in this world that he could cheat with, he just happened to choose her. My problem is with him. And I still feel this way. Unfortunately, she was an immature brat subject to never ending tantrums! <P>There is a sense of "release" when we choose to forgive. Just wish I could experience that w/H.<P>God Bless Popeye,<BR>Enlightened<P><BR>

It's comforting to me to know that others feel this way too. I KNOW how hard it is to deal with the lies and betrayal. My biggest struggle through all of this has been to remain good, try not to fight dirty and keep some love in my heart when I was being bombarded with lies and hurtful things.<P>Don't get me wrong. The OW has done many manipulating and conniving things over the years. She certainly has done her job well and has caused me a lot of pain. SHE IS responsible for that, but I hold my ex accountable for giving her that position and for the hell he has made of my life. If he had not opened that door, she would have been powerless.<P>But having said that, I don't even care who is to blame anymore. I just don't want the stench of it affecting my life anymore. I realize that I am never going to get honesty or an apology and I can finally accept that.

This is a huge issue for me as well. I am still struggling with the issue of forgiveness towards my Ex-H and his OW (who he married barely 4 months after our divorce.) I am not completely there by any means (it has been almost four years since he walked out to go to her), but I have gotten to the point where I realize that he did me a very large favor by removing himself from my life and she did me a favor by taking him off my hands. That being said, I loved my H with all my heart and would have done anything to repair our marriage, if he would been willing to join me in that endeavor, which he was not. However, I feel that they were both equally to blame - both made a choice to get involved in a relationship that BOTH of them knew was wrong. The only thing I have the right to forgive them for is the pain that they caused me. As for their other sins - adultery and desertion on my ex-H's part, and having sex with someone else's H on her part, are not mine to forgive. That power rests with God. After all, if I am not to judge their sins, then I cannot forgive them, either.<P>Also, what is forgiveness? If it is saying to those who sinned against you "It's OK what you did - go on with your sinful behavior, it's alright with me", then no, I cannot forgive. If it is letting go of the pain their sins caused, yet not condoning their behavior or making excuses for it, while still maintaining that what was done was wrong, but no longer expecting an apology, and continuing on with your life and finding happiness again even after what you have endured, then yes, I am now at that point.<P>I do not wish any harm to either of them. However, I do not wish for them to have happiness in their marriage, either. Whatever "happiness" they have, it was taken at another person's expense. Lying and cheating are still lying and cheating. Whether you gain happiness from it, is not what makes it excusable.<P>I have mostly let go of the pain that this has caused me and am now at a point where I know I am better off, my life is happier now, and I finally have peace of mind. I have wonderful friends and so many other things that I am so grateful for. But there is still, I admit, a part of me that would like to see their marriage fail. Not that I am waiting for it to happen or have put my life on hold until it does, but if and when it does, I will throw a BIG party for all my friends that stood by me through this terrible ordeal, and who were there for me as my friends in a way my (ex) H never was throughout our marriage.<P>[This message has been edited by Lady M (edited October 26, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Lady M (edited October 26, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by popeye:<BR><B>Every night I prayed for forgiveness and enlightenment for the H, but could never do that for the OW. I am there now, and I think that means another step towards freedom and healing.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Forgiveness is a powerful force. But what caught my eye even more is the above sentence. I truly believe that God does in fact answer our prayers, but as you found out He usually answers them quietly in His own time. When you begin to believe in that and have "faith" in the above, you begin to realize that your present situation is only temporary and this too shall pass. That all we need to do is to focus on the light at the end of the tunnel - not so much the distance to that light, but rather the light itself. By doing that, before we know it we will be out of the tunnel, while not even thinking about the darkness we are traveling through...<P>

I have also found that the God that gives us so much occasionally takes things away, and that sometimes what was taken away was taken away for our greater good.

Why would you forgive someone who has shown no remorse? She has treated my husband and my children with extreme cruelty by doing everything in her power to keep them apart, not to mention the fact that she took advantage of someone who was obviously depressed and manipulated him into leaving his family to begin with. She is not even much of a mother to her own children - what kind of woman would openly live with a married man in front of her teenagers. <P>She purposely sought out a married man as her target - and there is no logical reason for a divorced woman to do that except revenge - whether revenge against her ex-husband or revenge against women in general. <P>Forgiving her would not only be foolish, it would be wrong. That is the attitude that helps perpetuate infidelity. Would you say to your child that you forgave him if he said he was happy he had hit his brother? Of course not. Repentance is a requirement of forgiveness. Otherwise forgiveness means nothing. <P>Someone who is a lot more familiar with the Bible than I am once told me that even Jesus did not say you were supposed to forgive the unrepentant.

Nellie, <P>I am with you.. I can not forgive my ex, or the ow.. she befreinded me, (knowing my ex long ago) and her and her H, socialized with us, and then saw that we were having our problems, and gloated in my face, each time we were all together.. KNOIWING ALREADY that she won him over.. <P>I was treated cruel, while it was going on in my face, and to this day, my ex still acts as though I never exsisted, and I get the silent treatment.. she also gloats while hanging out and winning over my daughter now too.. <P>I can never forgive any one who pruposly hurt me, and still seem tpo enjoy what they are doing.. with no remorse, and no conctients what so ever.. <P>I never got over my dad fooling around and divorcing my mom.. so how am I ever going to get over this?? the two men I admired and loved the most have totally dissappointed and devastated me..<P>I feel that there is no sincerity in this world anymore.. it is a superficial world now.. and every one wants that instant gratification.. no one wants to take the time to work on a relationship.. <P>sorry.. I am getting carried away.. see thats why I don`t post much!! <P>any way.. no I can never forgive these two people.. ever.. <P>AV

AV,<P>I could forgive my H, if he were to show remorse - because I love him. <P>But it is inappropriate to forgive someone while they are still unrepentant.

I totally agree.. but he`d have to have alot of remorse.. to make up for what he and his perdue have done to me..!!! and I know, that, that ain`t happening.. so there is no forgiving from me.. period.. <P>I (very stupidly) still love my ex too.. and would love nothing more then to have had our family back together, and happy again.. <P>but there are too many if only`s.. that are never going to change, because he doesn`t want to.. so thats that... the end of our marriage..and the end of 15 yrs of life together as a family, and all the memories to go with it.. <P>He is dead in my eyes and mind now.. I have to treat this, as he is treating this.. and so there for he doesn`t exsist any more.. <P>I am sorry if this offends any one here.. it is just how I feel right now.. being he is still being so (mentally) cruel.. how can one keep taking this crapola, and be fogiving.. sorry, but no way...<P>AV<BR>

Forgiveness is definately still a struggle for me in my marriage. <P>Nellie and numbheart, I will admit that if my H left me for one of his OW's, I can't say that I would readily "forgive" her either. I could not imagine having her w/my H and my children, etc. The "pain" of this women still in my life (if only on the periphery) would be very difficult to forgive, particularly if she is not remorseful.<P>But that does not mean that I would not someday forgive. And by forgiveness, I mean what Lady M posted:"If it is letting go of the pain their sins caused, yet not condoning their behavior or making excuses for it, while still maintaining that what was done was wrong... " Thus, the sense of "release".<P>Does this perpetuate infidelity? Perhaps in some respects it does; probably moreso in the case of serial cheaters (as in my H's case). <P>Ultimately, forgiveness is a choice. I choose to forgive the OW. They are no longer in my life. <P>I have not, however, chosen this for my H. The pain is still there. I know that this choice is detrimental to the recovery of my marriage, but I accept that at this time. <P>God Bless,<BR>Enlightened

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>Why would you forgive someone who has shown no remorse? Forgiving her would not only be foolish, it would be wrong. That is the attitude that helps perpetuate infidelity. Repentance is a requirement of forgiveness. Otherwise forgiveness means nothing. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Because the forgiveness is not for them, it is for you. I am not saying that what was done was not wrong. It is. It will always be. Forgiveness does not take that away, but it replaces malice and pain with love. <P>If they are unrepentant, they cannot benefit from that love, but you can. <P>I was very hopeful that my love and Plan A could bring about miracles, but it doesn't happy if they don't want it and if they don't take responsibility for their part. My father is a horrible adulterer who has only stopped because he is physically unable to chase women anymore. He will go to his grave unrepentant. There are people like this. I have come to accept that now. It's sad, but it is life. If I spend my time holding it against them, it saps something away from my ability to live fully. That is why I forgive. As long as I stay connected, through begrudging them happiness, through focusing on what went wrong, or whatever, I am holding myself down, and I don't want that.<P>Does it perpetuate infidelity? I think it allows love to grow. What perpetuates infidelity is dishonesty, secrets, and not confronting the problems. When someone has been so hideous to you and sees that you can still have love in your heart, it is an opportunity for them to find that love in theirs. Not everyone takes it. Some *will* use that as a means to continue to lie and manipulate, but forgiveness (to me) does not mean abdicating responsibility or not working things through.<P>And FYI- my forgiveness also does not include wanting or taking him back. Those are very different things in my eyes.<p>[This message has been edited by popeye (edited October 31, 2000).]

Jesus did also say "Go and sin no more". When he kept the woman from being stoned, he was giving her another chance to live a good life. I think the message implies that forgiveness is offered at a certain price, the price being the express intent not to repeat the offense. He was not condoning her behavior.<P>I could never bless the marriage of a WS and OP. Like another poster said, it was gotten at the expense of another. <P>When people of my age get married now, I'm very alert to all the BS lines that these couples make. If I see someone getting married quickly after a divorce or even "dating", I usually suspect some kind of foul play.<P>

And I think an important thought that is missing here is "let he who has no sin, cast the first stone". Jesus said to "love your neighbor as yourself" - He never said we needed to like them.<P>I can honestly say that in my whole life there is not one person that I hate or who I have not forgiven. Like popeye alluded to, anger and hatred for someone is yours to keep - it follows you around wherever you go. By forgiving, you are able to lift that weight off of your back.<P>Forgiveness is sometimes the hardest thing to do, but I also believes it carries some of the greatest rewards.