Hi all,<P>The following is an excerpt from an email I sent a friend of mine this morning. As I read it, I thought it might be something worth adding here. All our situations and beliefs are different, but I was just curious to see if there are any others out there who may think like this? The email was in response to my friend's question "If she came back would you really want to 'take her back' considering all you have gone through?"<P>===================================<P>.... Finally, to answer your question whether I would take her back or not? Yes.<P>For a few reasons. First, even through all the **** we dealt with last year, the times we were together and forgot about our problems were great. The only problem was that she would catch herself having fun, then go into a "shutdown". <P>The next reason is because I did make a promise to her and more importantly to myself. I try very hard to live up to my "word". If you can't honor promises you make then what is left? And by the way, my vow was also to God. <P>And finally, I truly, truly believe in love and in God's love. Call me crazy but I so believe that if she came back and we both let God, not just back into our lives, but back into our marriage as well, I KNOW without a doubt that he would help heal our marriage. I just know it. Call it faith, or whatever. As you are aware, through all this mess,<BR>my faith has gotten a lot stronger, more so than any other time in my life. The difference this time in my life is that I truly "believe" - hands down no doubt about it. While God can not work in xxxxx's life right now if she does not let him in, if she came back and the "ball was back in my court", I know He would give me the power of acceptance and forgiveness for her.<P>It is kind of crazy, but I believe that our bond goes beyond happiness. I guess it is like the old beliefs about marriage - you stay married no matter what. Even if there are times when you personally are not happy, that should not sway you from your commitment. In good times and in bad. Fact: I love xxxxx. Fact: When I married her I loved her and committed my whole life to her - my whole life no matter what! There were no exceptions when I made that vow - none. The simple truth is that I would not allow myself to be in an "unhappy marriage" because I am in control of my happiness - I would do whatever it took to make myself happy WITHIN the confines of my commitment. Am I making any sense here???? Put in other way: I read a story about people who were in the Nazi Prison camps. A psychologist did a study on why some people survived and others were killed or died in those camps. What he found was that many of the people who survived, did so because of their outlook on life while they were in the camps. They focused on the future, not the present. They focused on getting out, on making sure once they did get out they would do everything they could to make sure something like this never happened again. By changing their focus to something positive, they actually reported that they were able to be almost "happy" during their stay in those camps. I believe that happiness is all about what you focus on.<P>All throughout the bible their are stories of men and women who were in the worst possible<BR>situations, but by focusing on their future (with God) they were not only able to survive, they were able to learn, grow and be happy. The basic underlying problem with where I am at right now with xxxxxx is our beliefs about marriage. I believe in commitment, in doing whatever it takes to make something work. By totally ruling out ever WANTING or participating in a divorce, my focus then shifts to "how can I make my marriage work". If there is NO option to leave the marriage, then there is no other choice then to MAKE IT WORK. I really<BR>thought Amanda felt the same (or I never would have married her). Now she has shifted to believe "if the marriage is broke, don't try to fix it, just end it and move on". If she only had the faith enough to believe that God WOULD do whatever it took for us to have a good marriage as long as we let him, there would be no doubt that she would come back.<P>I guess that is enough for today's philosophy lesson.<P>I can't control xxxx's beliefs or wants or desires or even her faith. BUT, I am in full control of mine.<P>========================================<P>To add to the above, one of my core beliefs in life is that we are not here to make ourselves happy. We are here to benefit others, to share, to care, to participate in life. Somewhere along the way, we as humans have come up with the philosophy that not only should we be "happy", we DESERVE to be "happy". Why? Who ever told us that? People are amazed that even in my situation, I tell them "well overall, I am still happy". Yes I am sad, yes I wish things could be different, but my happiness is in my focus. Right now I am focusing on two things: 1) What I can learn from all of this for potential future relationships (and marriage) and how I can possibly help others going through similar times and 2) The possiblity (however slight) that she may have a change of heart and return.

Wow! That is powerful stuff. I'm often a jokey person on this forum, but I have to tell you, your post made me really think.<P>I agree with many of your thoughts. Like you, I made a commitment I intend to keep to the "bitter end" (so to speak). I truly believe in my whole heart that when I took my vows, God was there and I made a holy commitment in front of Him. But I also think that God has allowed humans to have free will and to be out of line with His guidelines. Okay, in other words, He allows us the ability to be stupid and evil and sinful in exchange for the option to chose Him and His ways freely. I do not believe that any spouse that leaves a marriage and breaks vows is in God's pattern, but I think He lets us be idiots and make mistakes--much like a parent does with a teenager. I also think that when one spouse hardens their heart against the other and is constantly causing their partner pain, that God does not really expect us to remain in pain forever. <P>But I really loved what you said when you wrote, "...(if) there is NO option to leave the marriage, then there is no other choice then to MAKE IT WORK...If she only had the faith enough to believe that God WOULD do whatever it took for us to have a good marriage as long as we let Him." I believe that too. I do believe that God will provide for us what we need to make our marriage work, if we will only let Him provide it for us. Unfortunately, humans are headstrong, think they can provide for themselves, and don't accept God's provision.<P>Selah.<P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

I totally agree. I would take my ex back. At one level, it has very little to do with any love "feelings" I may or may not have at the moment. It has more to do with what you said. I still believe that we could have overcome just about anything together, given the will to not give up. Another thing... I truly believe that the problems each person brings into the marriage only follow them into another relationship. Sure, we'd all like to think that we've learned so much from this or that relationship and I'm sure we have. However, there is still a great deal we all need to learn. So many people seem to think the answer is "out there" with some new person. In my case, I don't have a choice. My ex divorced me. If I want to have another relationship, it must be "out there". However, I'm not kidding myself. No matter who I end up with, I still have to wake up in my own skin everyday.

hey there,<P>Well, you had a lot of the same sentiment I have about my marriage. I made a commitment, I would like to see it stay intact. <P>There is a wonderful site that deals with the concept of marriage as a covenant of God. It is one that really made me look deep into myself and think about commitment to another person. it is at <A HREF="http://www.covenantkeepers.org" TARGET=_blank>http://www.covenantkeepers.org</A> <P>Interesting reading and I think you would like it. Divorce is a bad thing for so many, it is such a shame that it is so easy to do anymore.<P>Lori

Wow, what great insight and advice. Just wanted to say "Thanks" for such great posts.

bangarra,<BR>I read the site you mentioned. The submission thing still gets me. Maybe I don't look at my choices in life (work, obeying the law, etc.) as submission. My "boss" for instance, has a vested interest in keeping me happy. He is then "submitting" to me if he modifies his behavior at all to increase my happiness with my work. I suppose he could fire me, but I could also leave, which is the same thing. They speak at length about how submission doesn't mean a woman is inferior and I disagree. If anyone doesn't believe that, I suggest the husband and wife switch places for a few months. She gets to be the "leader" and he gets to submit. I'll bet by the end of the experiment, he will be feeling pretty inferior. Being a partner and being equal means that both opinions are equally important and equally valid. It is contradictory to say the wife is not inferior, then in the same breath, say that the husband gets to make the ultimate decision. There is absolutely no point in even having a conversation with a husband under these conditions. If he makes the final decision, then why bother even having a single thought in one's head, much less communicate it. He's just going to do whatever he wants and call it "leadership" anyway. <P>This is probably the number one reason why my husband divorced me. I will not submit. My needs are equally as important as his, my opinions are equally as important, and I'm just as capable of leading as any man I would marry.

TS,<P>yes, I agree on the submission thing. I just liked what it said about committing to each other and the vows before God. I used to be an extremely strong individual, over the past few years I have slowly eroded away.<P>The past 3 months have caused me to look inside myself and realize that I had lost "me". I'm finding me again, letting go of a lot of baggage that weighed me down, and I have my self esteem back. I'm not going to submit again, ever. <P>I think one reason I let myself get heavy was that it made it doubly difficult to work in my industry if I was termed attractive. OK, it was stupid thinking. I'm well back to getting my weight down and am no longer afraid of using my brain, too, so 2001 is going to be a whole new year when I'm back in spirit, mind and body. All I can say is that some of those "good ol boys" out there better be prepared, cause I KNOW I am an equal now.<P>Lori

bangarra,<BR>I wish there was another way for organized religion to approach this topic. Obviously, if so much time is spent defining the term "submission" then there is a problem. IMO, both people have to submit, meaning, there can be no marriage without mutual respect and "submitting" to the needs of each other and the overall goal of the partnership. The input of both people are required to define the goals of the marriage. In most religious discussion on this topic, I see that men's needs (in general) tend to be focused on way more than the needs of the wife and children. That is why I don't believe it when they say that submission doesn't mean inferiority.<P>Oh, as far as the work thing...<P>I know exactly what you mean. I work in engineering (all men) so I downplayed my looks in order to "earn respect". Over the years I have learned that there is very little you can do to be taken seriously if the men in question have that kind of bias. Of course,you have to dress professionally. I'm totally NOT in favor of the Ali McBeal professional "slut-wear", but you don't have to wear a tent either. Clean, well-groomed, attractive clothing is always good. <P>Unfortunately, women have been the minority is so many fields of endeavor. It is natural to do whatever in order to conform. The fact is, though, that it is people's attitudes about what women can and cannot do that is screwed up, not your choice of clothing. So, just go out there, do the best job you can, dress professionally, and try as hard as you can not to take it to heart if some guy (or gal) doesn't take you seriously. Kick his/her butt professionally, and they'll be forced to take notice. Actually, when a particular person hasn't taken me seriously or has underestimated me in the past, I just laugh. That just makes it easier for me to kick their butt, cause they won't see it coming.

I think often we as Christians look too far into the words in the bible. Unfortunately, the men who wrote the bible (yes men) were living in a different time than we now do today. At that time, men were the leaders of the community, and (sorry gals) women were often lesser members of society. BUT, and it is a BIG BUT, I feel that whenever God referred to "man", it was not to be taken so specifically (even though that is how the people of the day took it and hence wrote about it). I believe that when God referred to man, He was referring to "mankind" - both men and women. Remember that God exists eternally - He knew that these words would not just exist in that day but that they would continue on forever. But, He also knew He was somewhat limited in the fact that everything He said would be interpretted (or misinterpretted) by man.<P>If you look at the readings and teachings of the bible, you can begin to see how that would apply to a successful marriage and life. If everyone, both men and women, are willing to submit to each other, than where would be the abuse? "The first shall be last and the last shall be first". I don't think God wants us to be "last" in anything we do, I only think He wants us to act that way - in other words to think of others before ourselves. Quick example: Something as simple as entering a building in a crowd - In such a brief encounter, who do you see as a "better" person? The person who is first into the building or the person who WAS first but then stopped to hold the door for everyone else to enter, then he/she entered last? Who gets more "thank yous" from the other people?<P>Our society is so quick to categorize and to judge and to act, based upon differences (age, color, race, sex). Maybe we should focus on our commonalities and not our differences.<P>To get back to being submissive. If a husband and a wife are BOTH submissive to each other, I think that in itself would level the marriage to a point where both individuals are equal. By doing that, it would be OK for men to be men as in our genes and women to be women as in theirs. I look at being submissive as cooperation between the two. To me a successful marriage is a lot like a successful business partnership - When you look for a good partner in business, you look to someone who possesses common goals but different skills - someone who will compliment your skills. In marriage their has to be a division of duties, if for nothing else than consistency. The problem is not the different duties (work vs. homemaking) but in how each spouse views those different duties. My wife cleaned the inside of the house and did laundry - I took care of the outside of the house and worked - we both cooked and we both took care of our puppy. I never once believed that she or me did anything more important than the other. We just had different and equal responsibilities...<P>Isn't that what God would want out of a marriage?