deanne,<p>Wanted to start a new thread frome the "Who can figure it out?" thread, since it's getting so long.<br>I thought it was interesting that you said you think my wife is going to punish me for a while. That thought has crossed my mind as well, but I've never really dwelt on it. If you have any further thoughts on that let me know.<br>Yesterday marked a week without sex because of her period and also she said she hadn't been feeling well. Yes, I know there are those of you who wish they had only gone a week without but it's a big deal for me.<br>My wife went out and bought a Christmas tree yesterday. I felt an attitude building that I wasn't getting any interaction so I planned what to do. I went out and cruised used book stores all afternoon. Whn I got home they were putting up the tree.<br>Kids went to bed. Wife says she can tell I've got a problem and she doesn't want any arguments breaking out. I say yes I have a problem. I have a wife that I cannot touch on a daily basis. I do all I can to find ways to occupy myself but, yes, it is very difficult to act normal when something you want and need so badly is routinely denied.<br>She said that sometimes, because we've grown apart, she doesn't know what to say to me. Now we've covered this ground before. We both know we've grown apart and we've talked about the reasons why. So I don't like this being brought up as if it's a new revelation. So I point out that I am doing everything I can to move in a better direction, but that I can't do it alone. She makes no efforts to move towards me so why is it a surprise if we're still where we were two months ago? I say that we need to make plan thigs we can do together so that we can get used to each other interacting again. I point out that I know it may be uncomfortable or awkward for her in some ways at first but that it is the only way we can converge paths again.<br>She says she can't just jump up and do that but she did promise to think about it. Fine. I left it there. Pressure gets you nowhere.<p>She did say earlier that we could have sex tonight. Ok. I take a shower, come out and sit down. She says she has to check e-mail. Fine. But that extends to 45 minutes. I am steaming. I've had almost no interaction, sexual or otherwise, for a week and I still have to wait on the computer. It is approaching 11pm. I get ready to go to bed. She sees me and says she'll be with me in a minute. I said forget it. I already feel like a groveling dog. I told her I kiss her behind enough as it is and I must retain at least a shred of pride if I am to function.<br>She says I am being childish and foolish. I say she'll just have to excuse a starving man if he seems a little impatient. She said I shouldn't be starving. I'm incredulous. I told her she needs some help if she can't understand how I feel on that score. Then she switched and said she guesses she was thinking I should be feeling the way she did, but that she could see how I might feel that way if I felt deeply about things. Yes, I do feel deeply. Is that abnormal? Where in the hell is she coming from? This cold, calculating manner makes me livid.<br>Earlier she had said she had a fear that if she continued with me she would suffer more of the same. That she felt like she was at a point where things were at a halt and that she was re-evaluating everything. Well, she's been at this halt for several months now. What does it take to move on? I have done everything but slit my wrists to show her that I have no desire to continue life as it was. But I told her that I can only do so much by myself. If she does not work with me how can I get the feedback I need to make adjustments or know if she's pleased with how things are going? She said that if she tries and the same things happen she will just go. This has been said before also. I know it already. We've covered that ground. I just need that opportunity to prove myself.<br>She pointed out that one area she still does not like is that I don't help the boys more with their homework. Now, I help them if they ask me. I told her that if that is an area of concern for her then I can certainly work on it. But remember that as you come up with different things you want me to do to improve myself that you are denying me the very things that make me feel good as a husband, the very things that give me the motivation to do all that she wants to see.<br>I feel like this is getting disjointed (and long) so I'll stop. Miraculously the night ended with sex, but I feel as if I'm reaching some sort of limit. My intentions and sincerity are as real as I can make them. And I have demonstrated that with action. But no amount of that can fill in for the absence of a spouse that stays stuck in one mode. If I'm being punished then I'm ready to take that for a while. But I'm not going to do it forever. I want to live, too. I'm not going to devote an inordinately long stretch of time to a problem that could be resolved if she would simply make a move. I'll allow time for this "emotional wall". But only if it seems productive in the long run to do so. Not if it means I have to run around for years like the court jester.

Bruce,<p>I don't really know what to say but I did want to offer some thoughts. I think you are justified in wanting to see some sort of effort on her part. I know how frustrating it can be for only one to be working on it. One thing I have learned as of late is that I can not hide my feelings until the explode. Even if I think the feelings are going to cause a fight it is better to say it then and there. Those of us trying to save the marriage spend most of our time walking on eggshells which is not always a good thing to do. We tend to pull into the withdrawl mode and then we explode which is worse for us in the end. I know with your situation you have to use your best judgment but this has improved things here. Of course I am the wife and so the dynamic is different. I wish you all the luck I have to offer. You are always in my thoughts and prayers. <p>Steph

Steph,<p>I agree. And I am saying what's on my mind more often. I think it does help. I told my wife last night that I absolutely refuse to go into a withdrawl. I've decided I'm going to make her, by my actions, make decisions one way or the other.<br>Funny though. Today I was sitting on the couch and she comes in and lays down. Then she put her feet on my lap. It is just that sort of small act that she has not done with me. So maybe last night got her thinking a little differently. She has been pretty normal all day today. We'll see.

Bruce,<br>I don't know if punishment is correct. Punishment would be intentional. I don't think our wives are doing this intentionally. But, it's punishment, just the same. <br>Last week was rough for me. I was extremely fed up with my wife's attitude. How one day she would say "I'm trying" and the next that she doesn't have the will to try. Or her attitude towards affairs in general, not to mention hers (Everything would be ok if I had not found out!).<br>So I had been quiet, less phyisical, no kisses for the week. Friday night we are eating dinner (alone, the kids were out), and she yells at me "We have to try as hard as we can to make this work!). Yes, music to my ears. Then she cried on my shoulder, and told me she might never be able to explain the extent of her confusion to me. I didn't push for more. That was what she could give. But, I was hesitant. I expected her to revert again on Saturday or Sunday. So, Saturday she notices that I am still not "touchy feely" or talkative, and she asks why. So, I told her that she can't do the "one day on/one day off" thing and expect me to be thrilled any more. I was trying to be consistant, she should too. I told her that her words "Trying hard", were just that. Words. I asked her what it meant. She had no clue. So I told her that to me, it means trying to change my attitude toward her, trying to change how I look at things, do things, and live, in order to make her happier. I told her that when she gets depressed and quiet, she needs to tell me why. I need to know if it's me, the kids, or just her. <br>She said she would "try" to figure things out. That was Saturday.<br>Sunday. She's depressed again. I asked her what's up? Again, she doesn't have the will to try harder. She's confused. Needs to find herself. Finally, I told her the following:<br>Find yourself. If you need to move out, do it. I'll help. (I am not saying this mad). I told her that if by the end of February, she still feels this way, I'll help find a place for her to move. I told her that if she keeps pushing me away, sooner or later I won't bounce back. That I was getting tired of the ping-pong game. And, one time she pushes, I won't be there to rebound. She said we have to try for the kids. I replied, the kids will be fine no matter what. If I can't live with you, I won't. I told her that I would eventually be happy again. With, or without her. I have my kids, my family, my friends. If she can't be in my life, then so be it. <br>She then went out to get a magazine for my daughter. 90 minutes later she returns. Lays down in bed. More talk. More tears.<br>Last night was the first night of Chanukkah (this is spelled 1,000 different ways, but it's still the same holiday). We all exchanged presents. I gave her perfume, and had the kids give her some gym clothes. This was the first time EVER that she showed appreciation for the gifts. Although, I have to admit, this is the first time I put in the effort I did to find out what she would really want.<br>After dinner, I gave her another present. The night off, in a bubble bath, a Jewel CD playing, and her favorite book.<br>I did reports with the kids, showers, bedtime, etc.<br>She got out of the tub 3 hours later. Relaxed and looking like a prune. <br>She baked some cookies and we watched "Parent Trap". A good up-beat movie. No adultery, marriage ends happily. Etc. I love Disney.<br>We sit on the couch. Munching cookies. She cuddles into me. Yes. There is a heaven. She had given me some shirts for Hannukah (another spelling, same holiday) but this was my real present. Needless to say, we never got to the end of the movie. I won't even say it was sex. This could be the first time we made LOVE in months. <br>Then, this morning she told me she might be depressed later because she might not be working today. So, if she is quiet, that's why. <br>So simple. Talking and giving what the other person wants. Why is it so difficult?<p>So, what am I saying here? Where am I going? I think you and I have been so afraid of losing this person that means so much to us, that we have given them the confidence to treat us as they will. In the hopes that they will see we love them, and love us back. Come back to us. It gives them the courage to let their fears control them. <br>When I told her I was no longer afraid of her leaving. That I would HELP her move out. That I might not be here for her. She changed the way she "tries". Just the admission this morning, of what to expect from her today was proof that she is trying. Not the sex. Not the kisses. <br>So Bruce, for what it's worth, here's my point (for this week. Next week, I'll make another one!).<br>Our wives love us. They married us. Had kids with us. Built a life with us. It did not turn out as ideal as they expected. Diapers, bills, fights, problems. S--t happens. It's not Ozzie and Harriet. So, they begin to re-examine what they have, vs. what they could have had. What they SHOULD have done to be happier. <br>The saying, "You never know the value of what you have, till it's gone" applies here to all of us. We never realized how much we treasure our wives until they "left" us. They have to realize that they have something that most people do not. Someone who loves them. Maybe my wife realized that she really has a chance of losing me, and everything. Maybe not.<br>Maybe tomorrow she'll tell me "I don't/can't try anymore". Then I'll give you my next theory. For now, take it for what it's worth.<p>Steph,<br>Eggshells eventually break. You can't be afraid.<br>

Bill,<p>I really liked what you said. I'm approaching the same point, if I'm not there already. The rest of the week end was good. We talked to one another like a normal couple. It felt great.<br>Like yourself I believe I would eventually be happy again even if she left. A month ago I wouldn't have made such an admission. But I hope I don't have to find out. You make a very good point. In spite of the mistakes we've made as husbands our wive's have men who love them and who are willing to change. They need to realize this.

Bruce,<br>They also need to realize that THEY will need to change, too. This is not a one sided issue. Compromizes, agreements, changes need be made on both sides.<br>I am trying to determine what changes I NEED in my wife to make me happy. Truthful communication is one. No more guessing how she is feeling. I need to be told. It's something you should think about.

Bill,<p>Thank you for such a beautiful post. Happy Hanukkah!!!<p>My eyes have been opened this weekend to much of what I was doing that was not helping matters. I saw what you said about my going on the trip. If he would have said don't go I wouldn't have. My marriage is more important to me than any trip. You see I sent him the Vegas last weekend and the time away helped him to realize what is here and how much he wants it to work. He came home with such a renewed sense of working on this marriage. He is thinking that by my going on the trip it will help me to clear my mind and come back ready to fix things here. <p>You are so right about not being afraid. Slowly I am gaining the strength not to be. With his help I am actually sharing my feelings on everything. We still fight but I'm learning that it is o.k. to fight. Much better than being in withdrawl. I'm also learning to not take it all so personally. Just because he is unhappy does not make me a bad person. No matter how he feels I am still the same me. <p>Good Luck to all. <p>Steph

Steph,<br>Thanks for the holiday wishes. I am glad that I provided you with some comfort and insight. It's nothing you havn't provided to myself, and others, here, as well. I know that just seeing the change of attitude in your husband gives you more strength and renewed hope. <br>The last 3 days were the best my wife and I have had in months. I think that once she knew that I was ready to accept ending our marriage, something changed in her. I did tell her that I was afraid of splitting up. But, that I was not so afraid as to coninue living unhappily.<br>I posted previously that yesterday morning she told me she might be quiet and depressed last night because she was not working for the day (She's a substitute teacher, and works day-to-day). Well, last night she sheepishly looked at me as said "Well, I didn't get depressed". We both laughed. <br>This morning, she called me at work to tell me she didn't get a call to work. But, during the call she said she loved me. I had not asked her, nor told her, for several days. <br>It seems her attitude toward me, and the family has changed. I know that she will still have "down" times, and that this does not mean we are "ok". We still have a long way to go before I know that we will be together forever. But, at least I now feel that we are BOTH working towards happiness.<br>

Bill,<p>That was nice to hear. Things seem to be looking up here too. Maybe the holidays don't make it so hard after all. <p>Steph

Bill, Steph,<p>Glad to hear things seem to be looking up for you both. Things haven't been too bad around here either. No arguments and the atmosphere has been pretty calm and cordial. Who knows what tomorrow will bring, but let's enjoy what we have while we have it and let tomorrow take care of itself. God bless.

Bruce,<p>I've been gone for a couple of days, there are so many new posts! <p>On the whole "punishment" thing- <br> I don't think it is at all intentional. I just notice that sometimes, after my H. apologizes for being the biggest jerk in the world, I end up being more withdrawn/cold toward him than I was while he was being the jerk.<p>I do not sit and plan to act this way. I can't explain it, but I do have a theory about why I act this "punishing" way. I'm afraid that if I'm "nice" to him after he apologizes, he'll go back to being a jerk. <p>I think that sometimes people mistake kindness for weakness, and I guess that I'm afraid that if I'm "kind and forgiving" my H. will think he can continue to be mean.<p>None of this is intentional in any way. I only realize it later. <p>My H. is screaming at me to come to bed. Will post tomorrow!<p>

estr,<p>What you say about your husband reminds me of my brother-in-law. He doesn't drink but he is in denial. My sister is in process of divorce from him now. Before this happened he did many things to drive her to this point. He has struck her, fussed and argued so much until even the kids hated for him to be home, kept a constant tab on her whereabouts, fixed the van so she couldn't drive it, and more. He has had opportunities to redeem himself, and my sister would have worked with him. But he has sabatoged himself badly, probably past the point of no return.<br>When I went to visit over Thanksgiving he came to take his son to a game room at the mall. I went also and so had a chance to talk to him. He didn't really know about my problems and was very surprised when I told him about them. He had been telling me things about his marriage situation that I knew were not totally true and were biased in his favor. Inside I was just wanting to tell him to shut up and face reality but I wanted to help him if I could. I began teling him about what I've learned about relationships and pointed out to him some things he's simply got to stop if he has any hope of ever reuniting with his wife. To me it looks like their marriage is shot but I can't be the final judge of that so I thought I'd tell himn these things in the hope it would help him take a step toward change.<br>What happens? Now my sister says he calls all the time (which he was doing before)telling her the things he now realizes based on my conversation with him. The upshot is that he is expecting her to receive him back just because of that. He has done some very hurtful things over a long period of time. If he'd embraced any portion of true change he'd know that he can't just jump back into her life with an apology and admission of guilt. The superficiality of such a thing alone tells her he hasn't changed. <br>It always seems to boil down to terminal selfishness. What else could cause a person who thinks rationally in every other area to so totally miss the mark on this?

Bruce,<p>I agree that it all seems to go back to selfishness. My quandry though is am I being selfish myself by wanting more from him, like friendship, companionship, conversation, shared goals, intimacy (without the stench of alcohol)? I feel like I'm just human... but when I try to explain to him my needs, I end up feeling like I'm imposing on his precious time. He thinks I want to be joined at the hip and control him. He doesn't realize how much he's actually controling me. And, I'm being selfish if I leave. And I'm being selfish if I turn my daughter's life upside down... But on the other hand, if my daughter were playing on the train tracks and I heard a train coming from a distance shouldn't I take her off the tracks now, or wait for the train to hit and hope that I can fix the damage later? That what I feel like is happening, and I want to prevent the damage, not try to pick up the pieces later. But it's not all about her either... I just want what everyone here wants, some happiness, love, respect, closeness... is that selfish? Is it realistic?<br>

estr,<p>Wanting intimacy, shared visions, companionship and so on is not selfishness. It may be if you demand it too soon before someone can give it but that's what we all want. It's what we're supposed to want.

Thanks Bruce,<p>Just feeling sorry for myself today. You're right that you shouldn't demand something that someone is not ready or willing to give. It's hard though when they tell you that you are wrong for wanting so much from someone else, and why can't you just BE HAPPY and live your own life. My problem is that I always thought and believed that marriage was all about sharing your life with another. I don't want to be joined at the hip, but I would like to be joined at the heart. But I do have a wonderful kid, and I don't want to ruin the next couple weeks for her, so I'll stop wallowing now! Thanks for listening.

estr,<p>I understand what you're saying and I know it is hard. I'm doing some wallowing of my own right now so don't feel alone.