well, here it goes. I want to share why I'm here. Although reading most people's posts, I'm not sure I belong here or not. You see, I'm already divorced. It's been about 2 months now. I was married to a wonderful man who I met in college. We spent the next 12 years together(7of them married) finishing school, paying off student loans, getting a "real" job, buying our first house etc. etc. the american dream... However, along the way somewhere, we grew apart and didn't even know it. We were so busy achieving our goals, I don't think we even stopped to evaluate our relationship. The last 2 years of the marriage, there was no intimacy. I mean none! but we were so used being with each other and most of all we were comfortable. During that time, I completely lost interest in sex. I didn't want it or think about it. We tried counseling including sex therapy, but it just didn't work. I could not get my passion back for him. So, I moved out and we eventually divorced. I have a tremendous amount of guilt for the failiure of this relationship because I wasn't attracted to him anymore. He was and still is close with me and we are good friends. Do you guys think I made a big mistake by getting a divorce? Recently, I came across a book called "too bad to stay, too good to leave" and it said if you do not long to touch or be touched by your partner at all, it most likely is not a relationship you want to stay in. Eveyone keeps telling me that the physical part of a realtionship is not everything. I know that. I had it all except the physical part and it was the end of my marriage. Any advice?

This is a hard one. Since I'm not the one who wanted to end the relationship, my perspective may be skewed.<P>I think she felt the "not longing to be touched" by me for a long time before she told me it was over, so I ahd no chjance to rekindle those feelings.<P>The physical part of the relationship isn't everything, but it is one of the legs on a 3 legged stool. Take it away & the stool's going to fall.<P>I firmly believe that 90% of all marriages can be saved when both partners commit and work toward saving it. Unfortunately I had to go at it alone and failed.<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again

cOOker,<BR>we both tried with counseling etc. but it didn't work. What do you do then? I mean is there a time when you just admit it's not going to work and give up?

Cabernet, <P>A book that may be very relevant for you, if you like reading, is Dr. David Schnarch's "Passionate Marriage". It addresses well the issues you're concerned with, as well as overal development issues in marriage; I recommend it highly. <P>Regards,<P>Jon

I am very interested in what you have posted, as it seems to be how my wife feels. Were your other emotional needs truly being fulfilled by him? Do you consider yourself to have a high sexual drive? Did you have frank discussions about this issue, or were you afraid to damge his male ego? Do you know what turned you off by him? Not sure if you made a mistake, but if he feels as I do now, a lot of time will be needed for him to heal. thanks

Our relationship was never really passionate to begin with. He came straight from living with his parents and then to me. I honestly think I took the place of his mother. I took care of things--bills and being the outgoing one, our social life. I can recall some "fire" in the first few months of our dating, but we were so young and inexperienced. we never really talked about our preferences, what felt good etc. God this is awful, but it felt embarrasing to talk about that stuff with him. and it made sense. It would be very hard to talk about sex with one of my parents. We didn't have a full marital relationship. Our way of effection was taking care of each other and talking "babytalk". But I wanted some heat--raw sexual chemistry! and it just wasn't there. Maybe, the whole marriage was a mistake. I'm still confused myself.

I am truly amazed at the similarities---but, we are still together, yet so far apart. She did tell me that she felt she became my mother----which may explain why talking about sex has been very difficult--in both our circumstances. Now that I am aware of it, I have been struggling how to break the pattern---and it has been tough. I tend to hold onto patterns that I thought made her happy. Your ex probably struggled with it too. Did his emotional needs include affection and SF? Did sex become something that he took for granted----making you feel like an object? I know that a good frank, adult to adult conversation would help, she just doesn't seem receptive. Has your ex established other female contacts since the D?

desperately confused<BR>when we ceased having any intimate contact, my ex just assumed that was part of our marriage and didn't do anything to change it. He told me later on(after we were divorced) that he really needed affection and SF. Well, he never told me that. I just figured he didn't care. It seems now that we are divorced, we can talk honestly about our feelings. I have tried and tried to rekindle that passion for him, but right now, it seems almost impossible. It is very hard to get turned on by someone who you've put in a certain role for such a long time. I don't know how long this has been going on for you and your wife, but what have you tried to change your situation? My ex has gone out on couple of dates, but he says he's not interested. I know he still hasn't given up on us yet. Of course that makes me feel even worse.

I had to give up when she said that there was no chance, and she didn't want to try anymore. I honestly didn't see it coming, and it has really trashed me emotionally. I had to let go because it hurt so bad, that I couldn't hang on any longer. I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep, I couldn't focus on work. I was completely physically, mentally and emotionally trashed.<P>I'm still very attracted to her and wish this could be fixed, but I can no longer invest myself emotionally in a woman who was my entire life, when she thinks of me as nothing more than a "buddy" and her childs father. I loved her far too much to ever just like her.<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again<p>[This message has been edited by c00ker (edited November 01, 2000).]

This may be the eternal optimist speaking, so take it with a grain of salt. When we get in the situations we are in, we all too often focus on the most recent memories, which are not the best, nor the most accurate for the length of the entire relationship. To cabernet, your ex screwed up when he told you he wasn't interested in his dates. Have you thought about him totally involved with another woman? If they were to pass you walking down the street, arms around each other, what is your gut reaction? You are living with guilt when you shouldn't. You need to go forward---with him, or without him. Only you know if you gave it your best shot. Maybe others will have further thoughts.

cabernet: I am so right there with you...i am not divorced (yet) and have recently learned that my H is taking a job very far away. there is no intimacy with us for over a year...we were always there to help and support each other...we seemed to be perfect for one another and then the affair which was emotional...which is awful since you could say that we have an emotional marriage...not a lot of physical intimacy, but we used to hold each other etc...not in over 1 year. <BR>You know while I don't think physical intimacy is a reason for divorce, but if one person wants it and the other has no desire and other areas are declining then maybe its the right answer. You know it's been a hard year to come to this conclusion, but money and status does not mean anything to me anymore...unfortunately for my H it somehow validates him...

desperately confused<BR>I've imagined my ex seriously dating someone else and I have to admit that is hard for me to handle. Because I still love him in so many ways! I've tried to get my passion back for him by imagining all sorts of circumstances, but so far it hasn't worked. Even though, we probably still can have a pretty darn good marriage, knowing what I know now--about his emotional needs, it would be wrong for us to go down that road again...<P>cpickel<BR>I'm so gald someone knows what I'm going through. Do you ever wonder if you'll ever get the passion back again? not necessarily in the present relationship, but in future relationships? Have you ever wondered what is wrong with me?<P>To all<BR>I'm curious to get some opinions. Do you think it's possible to have a good marriage without physical part if it was okay with both of the partners?

<BR>carbernet asks:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Do you think it's possible to have a good marriage without physical part if it was okay with both of the partners?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, but I'm answering that hypothetically: You already said that SF is important to your exH. Remarrying with the knowledge that you cannot sexually fulfill him seems ill advised.<P>Bystander<BR>

The pursuit of Passion!!! I am very interested in what the "experienced" people have to say. Is passion a result of how he treats you---from his physical appearance---how well he meets your needs? Is it truly something you need to try and get, or does it happen. Can you try to get it, but in doing so, make it so it won't happen?

Dear Cabernet, I've read all your posts and would sincerely like to give you some advice...are you ready? <BR>My heart has never lied to me, so I'm inclined to believe you can trust your heart as well. Do you love your ex? If so, stop trying to imagine yourself in a sexual situation with him and think about where you could be 5 years from now, remarried to this man. Realize one thing...you two are not responsible for one anothers happiness. True joy and happiness come from within. If you two truly love one another and have since the divorce, become close friends, begin talking about reconciliation. I've said this before, sex isn't everything. True, at its peak, sex can and is very enjoyable, however, I know of marriages which exist, happily, without it. True intimacy begins when the pressure to perform ends. <BR>With all that said, my advice to you...tell him you wish to reconcile, remarry, and love yourself enough to seek to please him, follow your heart...you will, in turn, be satisfied.<BR>

Got a question for all of the posters---or perhaps it is a thought. As I reflect upon my marriage, it seems that I was trusted with her feelings of passion, and I took them for granted. My wife says they are gone for ever. The feeling of passion is a result of the other partner's action---it doesn't come from within, but it is a result????? In other words Cabernet, you don't feel those things due to his actions---you can't find them, make them, or fix them yourself----anybody agree with this?

Just read this post for the first time, I have also read the book "too good to leave...<BR>I am sitting here this morning, with a very confused attitude. My husband moved out this weekend, after 15 years, we have decided to get a divorce. I have experienced much of what you have said, <P>finishing school, paying off student loans, getting a "real" job, buying our first house etc. etc. the american dream... However, along the way somewhere, we grew apart and didn't even know it. We were so busy achieving our goals, I don't think we even stopped to evaluate our relationship. <P><BR>I can hear you loud and clear on that one...............I guess why I am confused, is because I spent the last several years of this marriage knowing I was done, I just never realized I had a choice. I feel as though he was making me stay!!!!!!! I guess I felt as though I had to, When you get married, you are making a commitment to be with someone whom you love and "want" to share your life with. I think it is easy to lose sight of that. I grew apart from my husband a very long time ago, but felt I had to stay and make it work.I was looking at it more of a death sentence than a marriage. I think that if you had maybe tried counseling or marrige encounter early on when things started to deteriorate, you may have been able to salvage. I also think it would have worked for me, except I never could get him to go to a encounter group, he was always too busy! good luck

In my opinion, passion is something that is either there from the beginning or not. I know that many people think of passion as a phase of any relationship that eventually goes away, but I think it's an essential part of a relationship that has to be sustained throughtout the entire relationship. Some say that passion is a superficial part of a relationship that changes into a deeper, more meaningful love later on, but I think it is a seperate entitiy in itself. I loved my ex, but when I think back, I never really had the nervous butterflies--'I think I'm going to be sick" kind of excitement. What do you think? How do you define passion?

Well, as my name implies, I am not sure of the answer---and perhaps it is much different for men than women. But for me, passion would be that feeling of when seeing my wife at a mall, of being instantly happy, knowing that this beautiful woman, walking towards me loves me. Are there more beautiful women around---sure, but I don't have passion for them. Was this feeling there in the beginning----sure, but not to the extent of today(at least until 3 months ago--sigh). So, if I am correct, then passion can change---either increase, or decrease. But what can cause it to change---what outside factor? To me, it must be how well he treated you, or in my case, how well I treated her in meeting her emotional needs. I don't think you could get married if not for some passion. Was it cultivated, nutured, or perhaps, recognized? Did your husband have stronger feelings of passion for you than you for him? With my wife, passion was not important to her as she pursued the "SuperMom" role---and what I failed at, was not making sure that it was growing in spite of her main priority. Now, she has awoken, and realizes it is not there, and claims it never was. I disagree---it was there, I just didn't properly take care of it. Let me ask the "test" question----if he should tragically die today, what would be your true feelings?

It brings tears to my eyes even imagining he would be gone. I would feel so very very empty--like I lost my best friend... but does that mean we would work out if we tried again??I read a post by someone on a different thread(I can't remember which one) that he never ever expected his wife would leave him. That's what my ex said to me. He never imagined I would leave and maybe that was the downfall. He took our relationship for granted..But then, I did too..(sigh)