In reading the posts on this board over the last six months, there have been several people who have divorced and "moved on", yet I can still see anger in their posts. I have yet to meet anyone who has been divorced who is not still angry at their ex, often intensely so even after many years. Even those who claim to be good friends with their ex's seem to have no respect for them.<P>And no matter how good a job the remaining parent does raising the kids, they are changed forever, for the worse. I can already see a hardening in the attitudes of my daughters as they try to convince me and themselves that men are not necessary or even particularly useful in the upbringing of children, and I have seen this same attitude in many divorced women and in many adult children of divorce.

Amen Nellie!<BR>I have watched too many families be destroyed by infidelity. I guess I notice it more because I spend a lot of time councelling the kids during the aftermath. Most of my friends children turned to me and my family after one of their parents betrayed their family. I know what I have seen. No matter how hard the parents tried there was always a very large impact on the children.<BR>Even when the parents stay together and make the marriage work, the memories of betrayal will live with them always.<BR>My 18 year old is a prime example. He has lost all respect for his father. He sees that we are closer than ever before but he will never foget what he saw. I hope they can repair the relationship. Doesn't look promising.<BR>The stories that I have heard from my friend that works in a daycare scare the living daylights out of me. These small children say things there that truly show their feelings. <BR>Any adult that thinks the kids will not be affected, that they are resilient is living in a real fantasy world.<p>[This message has been edited by wasstubborn (edited September 01, 1999).]

Nellie1,<P>Once again, you have taken the words right out of my mouth. I'm getting a little tired of the constant advice from well-meaning friends to go ahead and get a divorce because it's better for my kids to be raised by two parents happily divorced rather than miserable together. What about two parents happily married because they stuck it out? Why isn't that one of the options? Well, I'll get off of my soapbox now.<P>Just because children survive doesn't mean that they thrive.<P>Lizbeth

Well, I guess your posts are aimed at me since I recall that I am the one who said children are resilient. I never said that divorce didn't have an impact on the children, and I've NEVER advised anyone on this forum that divorce was the way they should go. But, oh well, if you want to allude to me saying those things, fine. I'm too exhausted to argue with you.<P>Honestly, ladies, the things you attempt to take issue with really astound me sometimes. Listen, if you feel your children are now doomed and they have no hope to yes, THRIVE after this crisis, then okay, you will get no argument from me. So, I'll just agree with you. Okay, your children are doomed! Okay. There is no hope for them. Zero. None. Their lives are pretty much over now. Whether you divorce or rebuild your marriage, your children will never rebound from this. They will never be happy. Okay, okay, okay. Does that make you feel better???? <P>I'll continue to hold onto the HOPE that goes along with what I know to be true. THROUGH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE. I choose to cling to my belief that it is possible to overcome ANYTHING with God's help. And you know why I believe this? Because God says so. And I'll believe Him over what anyone else says. So, if you three are in disagreement with these beliefs, fine. Just know, that you're not in disagreement with me, but rather you're in disagreement with God's teachings. And I can certainly live with that if you can.<P>Now, I'm going to go hug my very happy, secure children. Now that they see how close their father and I are and how much love we share, as well as how we've overcome adversity and stuck together through thick and thin, I've never seen them happier.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.<p>[This message has been edited by new woman (edited September 01, 1999).]

NW - what on earth are you talking about? Did you put that on the wrong thread?<P>Now you're confusing me - which of course is very easy to do these days!!<P>Come back here Hon and reread!!!<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba

Sheba,<P>Hon, no, I didn't mean to put this on another thread. This is a continuation of a "discussion" Nellie and I had on another thread that was initiated by Stone. Somehow the thread changed from discussing Stone's wonderful progress to how infidelity and divorce affects children. concerning children rebounding from this crisis. On that thread, I was the one, and I think the only one, who said that children are resilient. Verbatim. So, obviously Nellie and Wasstubborn are referring to me here.<P>Hon, go back and read that thread, then come read this one. I'm sure that will clear up any of your confusion and you will see exactly what I'm talking about.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

NW - Don't want to step in the middle of this.......<P>Was just going by what was said here about divorced people and kids, etc.<P>Couldn't relate it to you since you're not divorced.<P>Sorry - carry on!!!<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba

Well, new woman, you are to be congratulated on rebuilding your marriage! How wonderful for all of you in your family. I'm not sure exactly what you mean about these posts being aimed at you, but maybe I've missed something.<P>I do think it makes a difference if the parents divorce or rebuild the trust in their marriage. I also think HOW the parents go about recovering from infidelity has a huge affect on their children.<P>Lizbeth

Lizbeth,<P>Read Stone's thread, I think it's called something like, "you can get through this." You'll see exactly what I mean.<P>Thanks for your well wishes. Yes, my family is far better than we've ever been. We are talking now, we are sharing now, we finally are providing our children with parents who know how to love one another. We're blessed.<P>Sheba,<P>Glad you are no longer confused. Now that you've read the two threads, I'd like to hear your opinion. Do you agree that children who experience a parent's infidelity, whether they divorce or whether they rebuild, are doomed? Or do you feel that with God, all things are possible, that children are resilient, and that anyone can overcome anything if they trust in God? I'd really like to hear your opinion.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.<p>[This message has been edited by new woman (edited September 01, 1999).]

I think we're back to generalizations with this one......<P>It all depends!!<P>It depends on what kind of self esteem and reasoning skills the child has prior to the situation.<P>Plus<P>What atmosphere and adult guidance the child has around them during and after.<P>Of course God has a hand in everything but what if they're suffering is part of His plan?<P>Look at all the messed up kids today!! Where was God for them? Do you think that God abandoned them? Or is it a plan from which to teach something to this world?<P>Then again there are a lot of kids who learn and grow in more understanding of human failures and compassions.<P>So my answer is : It depends!!!<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba <P>

I know better than to get in the middle of this, but I want to post to Nellie, okay guys?<P>Dear Nellie:<P>I agree with what you are saying - because I have been divorced. I have forgiven my ex-husband and his OW. I am good friends with his OW - now x-wife. My children have contact with her, and they have been divorced 10 years at least. (I quit counting! It doesn't matter to me a bit!) <P>Do I respect my x husband? No. Because he just keeps repeating his mistakes.<P>Also, my concerns are for the example he has been teaching our children. You know the line, "do as I say, not as I do?" - doesn't really impress me much. He is sorry for what he does, he just doesn't know how to stop doing it. <P>I am thankful that I was able to show my children a different example. My children respect me, and call me for advice, not their father. <P>Were my children negatively impacted from the divorce? Without a doubt. Did they survive? yes. I simply surviving a goal? No. Overcoming is a goal. It IS obtainable. I believe that because of my faith in God, and His promises. <P>Remember what I told you about my visit with my 25 year old son, this summer? Remember how my heart broke because he told me how hurtful it was to him, as he sees his x-wife repeat the same harmful statements to his little 6 year old that I told my little boy when he was 10? She made a comment to my grandson that mommy and daddy got divorced so daddy wouldn't make mommy cry. <P>The truth is, they got divorced because she was/is having an affair. Neither here no there, actually - because what my daughter in law did was the worst thing that she could have done to my grandson. She BLAMED his father for the divorce. <P>My son is overcoming. But those words that I spoke to my son, with all of the best intentions - cannot be taken back. I thought I was telling our children what not to do, but I hurt them soooo deeply. By telling them to look at what their father is doing, and the consequences WE suffer because of his choices hurt my children worse, than anything.<P>I really care about you Nellie, you are going through the worse time of your life. It is like the refiner's fire. The entire of you is in the fire. What will survive is what is true and what is right. <P>Please be careful and choose your words wisely with your children. Give them hope, give them a future. Don't say things that can hurt them! <P>Your bitterness shows up on the board. It is beyond anger - it is very bitter. I hope you don't show this to your children. They will become frustrated because they are helpless to change it.<P>I also agree that we should never say never!<BR> <P>Find the hope in you through this fire, and pass it on to your children. That although we are human and make mistakes, that if we look hard enough and deep enough - we will find something good that comes of it. It might be the realization of the good inside of ourselves.

you know what? i wonder how much of my H's willingness to stop seeing OW has to do with my son's beginning to talk...<BR>OW has told me what a lovely baby he is, so i get sick to my stomach wondering how much time she has spent with him. not much, but 5 minutes is way too long, in my book. If he could talk, i'd send him with his dad EVERYWHERE!!!<BR>I think kids are resilient, to a point, but of more consequence is what they learn and how it affects their adult lives.<BR>just my 2 cents.<P>------------------<BR>for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer, till death do us part.<P><BR>

Sheba,<P>Very middle of the road answer! I didn't really expect you to go out on a limb or to say you agree with me. Well, that would be blasephemy, wouldn't it?? (Just kidding now!)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Look at all the messed up kids today!! Where was God for them? Do you think that God abandoned them? Or is it a plan from which to teach something to this world?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Whoa, this is a question for the theologins, certainly not me. I am not qualified to answer something so profound. All I know is, God has promised to never leave or forsake us. He has told us what He can and will do if we put all of our trust in Him. I'm just going to have to go by faith and not by sight on that one.<P>And, yes, of course it depends on many factors how children will be able to overcome any particular crisis. I hold steadfast to the belief that we have much influence over what the final outcome will be. So, I guess we are in agreement, hopefully not much to your dismay! <P>TNT,<P>Wonderful post. 'Nuff said.<P>Love was Blind,<P>I agree, kids are resilient, but what we adults do and teach them can definitely impact their ability to overcome the trials and tribulations they face. Unfortunately, sometimes bad things happen to good people, and as much as we'd like to, we can't protect our children from everything. But through our actions and our words, we can teach children that there is always hope for a better future, that we can achieve our goals, that regardless of our circumstances, we can have fulfilling lives. That's our job.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

NW -<P>I feel the need to address this interaction we've just had. I read the first two posts on this thread and then I read yours. <P>Your post was very confusing to me and I logically asked you about it. Your resonse to me was somewhat sarcastic and I overlooked it because it is difficult to read the tone in which something is written. I realized that my use of the word Hon could have been misinterpreted as some sort of condenscending referral being that you are on the defense.<BR>So to clarify - it is a term of endearment and I have used it to others on this forum. There was no undertone to it.<P>When told of your previous discussions and what was your frame of mind with this thread - I then apologized for your obvious distress that I thought you could possibly be mistaken about something. <P>Then you pose a question and ask my opinion. I give my honest and quite logical, I thought, opinion and am accused, albeit masked in humor, of being on some sort of side in some sort of game that is apparently being played on this forum. <P>I did not read the Stone Thread until after your last response - I did not want to get enbroiled in any descension.<BR>My answer was a direct response to your exact question and that is all!!!!<P>I'm sorry if you are having troubles with people here. But I don't like and I really resent being drawn into your little pissing contest. Please do not try to put me in such a position again. <BR>I'm sorry to be so brash but I am not here for this taking sides crap!!!! I have enough to deal with in my marriage and that is where I will continue to flow all my energies into.<P>You know it's a shame that there's so much pain already here - why in GOD's name does it have to be added to with things like this?<P>I just want you to understand that I am not involved in this stuff and will not participate. I am sorry if my reaction was truly not your intent but that is how I see it.<P>The whole topic is a combination of what you're all saying anyway - it's so ludicrous to be so nitpicky - put the two sides together and maybe you'll have a whole picture.<P>I don't understand the need to have sides and I don't want to. As far as I know I have no "enemies" here and I like it that way!!!!<P>If you can accept my answers or opinions at face value - then we have things to correspond about. If you can't then I guess we don't. Your choice.<P>Hugs and Best Wishes to you<P>Sheba<P>PS - Nellie I'm sorry to have used so much space on your thread. Forgive me.

Sheba,<P>Wow, you really let me have it, didn't you? How long have you been waiting to do that? I remember you joking with me in one of your posts, calling me on a generalization I made, and I responded to you with a smile, nothing more. Look at what I get after my attempt at some humor and to lighten up the situation. I think that speaks volumes.<P>I'm sorry you feel this way about my trying to lighten things up and poke a little fun. But, oh well, I can't let that worry me. Yes, your first post to me could have been phrased much better. The "hon" term of endearment doesn't bother me at all. But instead of asking me nicely and respectfully to clarify for you, you immediately jumped to conclusions, assuming I was wacko or something. Statements such as "what on earth are you talking about?" And, "are you on the wrong thread?" "hon, go rearead the thread." were not necessary. On the defensive? You betcha. Who wouldn't be when they are posted to like they are a raving lunatic. You apologized, I accepted, and then I asked your opinion because I value it. You and I have had civil discourse before. Now, I guess that wasn't such a good idea. <P>But, there was absolutely no need for this last brow beating by you. But, I'm glad you got it off your chest and I hope you feel better now. I've come to the conclusion that if anyone feels better by lighting into me, great, have at it. I'm protected sitting way over here behind my keyboard and I'm just going to let it roll off and remain focused on the things in life that are really important. I suggest everyone else do the same.<P>Hugs and best wishes to you as well. I was only trying to keep things light with you. I know you are going through a tough time with the impending divorce, your back bothering you, and getting mixed signals from your H. I really didn't mean to add to that in any way. Man, oh man, did that backfire in a BIG WAY. Sorry, and I hope you are feeling better soon.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.<p>[This message has been edited by new woman (edited September 02, 1999).]

I think the age of the kids when divorce occurs makes a big difference. If the kids are very young, say 5 and under, I think they can rebound very well. At least that's been my experience. The older kids who know more about what's going on are the ones who have more trouble with it. One of my best friend's parents divorced when she was in her junior year in college, and she got stuck in the middle. Both of the parents were using her as their sounding boards. I think this is a big mistake. A divorce is between the parents and the kids should not be dragged into it.<P>As far as how children handle infidelity or any other marital problems, I think it depends on how the parents handle it. When I asked my H to leave, I didn't tell the kids why. (ages 10 and 13) I just told them that their father and me needed to work some things out. I shielded them from all the ugly stuff. I would have never told them he cheated on me or there was another woman. Of course they'd hate him if I did.<P>Now that he's home, my kids see that even though we had big problems, we worked them out. I think that's a good lesson for kids to learn in life.

nw,<BR>My post was NOT aimed at you, or any other specific person. You are certainly not the only person who has said that "children are resilient". I read that over and over, not only on this board, but many other places as well, and usually it is presented as a statement of fact with no research to back it up. The research that I had read of generally does not support that statement.<P>I certainly don't believe that children will not rebound after reconciliation, in fact I believe that they will, if the parents work toward a better marriage. If I did not believe that, I would have given up a long time ago and I certainly wouldn't be on this board. You said:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Now that they see how close their father and I are and how much love we share, as well as how we've overcome adversity and stuck together through thick and thin, I've never seen them happier.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I certainly agree that seeing their parents overcome adversity can provide a valuable lesson.<P>trustntruth,<BR>I do not think I am bitter, but I am terrified about the "lessons" what their father is doing is teaching them. He is not only trying to justify leaving the family, but also trying to convince the oldest that "putting the past behind him" by leaving the family is a valuable lesson and an example that she should emulate if she experiences unhappiness in the future. <BR>The children know that I think their father is not himself, that he is depressed, that I still love him. The older two girls think I am nuts, that his behavior is a sign of a serious character flaw, that "once a cheater, always a cheater". <P>WorkedforMe,<BR>I realize that children respond to divorce in different ways at different ages - unfortunately I have one of practically every age. I couldn't shield the kids from knowing about the OW - my H introduced her to the four little ones six weeks after he left, as a "friend from work", and not only expected them to buy that, but the 16 and 18 year olds as well. My 16 year old had figured out what was going on well before that, the moment he left. The youngest three don't know yet that the relationship with the OW started well before he left, and I fear that when they realize that when they are older (and I am sure they will) that they will blame me for hiding the truth from them.

Nellie,<P>I see your dilemma. But I do think the way you handle things will carry over to your children. You sound very dismal about their future, so they will pick up on that. I think children are optimistic by nature, but we adults teach them how to worry, how to be pessimistic and how to lose hope. When my H was gone, I showered my kids with so much attention and so much love, barely giving them a chance to miss him too much. I made that my mission, and it worked. My kids were fine and they still are. Things worked out in the long run, but even if they hadn't, I'd have been fine and my kids would have been fine because I wouldn't have accepted anything less.

My situation is a bit different in that my H never left, and my kids are quite young. But I still believe that they will be affected by his infidelity, even the ones that were not born at the time of the affair. It will most likely not cause them to go out and ruin their lives, but it will change them. The arguments that we still have, the tears that I cry, the talk of separation, etc WILL AFFECT THEM.<P>I believe where spouses have actually left, is going to affect them ALOT more and I do believe that it will leave large scars even if reconsiliation happens. Yes, you might get back together, and things might turn wonderful. But those kids will forever have the memory of their father/mother leaving THEM.<P>The thought of all this makes me so sad. How do such innocent children get stuck in the middle of one of life's worse situations?<P>------------------<BR>Shoni<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Shoni (edited September 02, 1999).]

Are children affected by divorce. Absolutely! Are they "doomed"? Not necessarily. It depends on how the divorce is handled, how the parents interact with each other and how they interact with the children. If the one with the children is consistent in handling problems and understanding the children have needs also, then it will only make it easier on them. It won't soften it, but they will be able to cope much better. As we can cope by coming to this forum.<P>We can still teach our children life values and be the best parent for them we can. This will work wonders for them.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A> <BR>