To most,<P>I really should thank you. Having these discussions with you give me the strength I need to stay celibate. If I ever start kidding myself that I will ever be stupid enough to assume that I can EVER live this down, all I need to do is think about your need to know about people who've done what I've done. I don't trust that very many of you know what it is like to be me. I don't trust that any of you really have the best intentions when trying to find out about someone's past. Sorry. <P>What I see is that you want to know for your own sake, not theirs. If there was some piece of information about their past that they would find extremely painful to disclose, I can't imagine that your efforts to uncover it would be doing THEM any good. It would only serve to satisfy your curiosity. Before you ask someone a question about their distant past that they can't answer, you'd best ask yourself if you are willing to pay the cost for your curiosity.

<BR>TS,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If he asks point blank, I may or may not lie depending on the way they ask the question, but I would immediately break up with him in either case. If they persist about knowing the details, they will be shown the door. There will be no exceptions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your defensiveness is palpable but unnecessary. You really don't believe me when I tell you that YOU will want to disclose your past. You're nowhere near such a relationship, but you'll get there eventually.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't think anyone with your viewpoint would have honorable intentions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I make no apologies in defense of honesty, TS.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I choose not to relive this memory by sharing it with some clueless person.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why do you continue to refer to your future husband as "clueless?" <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I suppose that whomever I am with will just have to accept that there is a certain chunk of my life that must remain untouched as a condition of being with me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Which brings us full circle to the large seed of doubt.<P>TS, you have repeatedly claimed that you don't care what others think. In practically the same breath you say that you're not going to disclose anything to anyone, especially a potential spouse. If you really don't care what anyone else thinks, then you wouldn't mind disclosing your past. The fact is, you care deeply what others think, and you are very worried about how others will react to your past. This is called other-validation.<P>Other-validation is a trap of your own making. You can escape it by self-validating, by taking pride in overcoming difficult periods in your life, and sharing those victories with your partner. Your next husband will want to know of them, and informed consent aside, you'll want to tell him.<P>Bystander

Wow! <P>TS, put down your weapons and step away from the doorway!<P>What I mean is that I think you have been really hurt and now somehow you think we are out to do the same to you.<P>I can not speak for everyone here, but IMHO, I had no intention of upsetting you so badly. Disclosing or not disclosing is ultimately a choice you will have to make. I can not imagine the need to disclose to casual acquaintances, friends, co-workers and whatnot that you meet along the way. But eventually, if the day comes along that you find someone close enough to you that you consider them intimate, I can't imagine not disclosing. Maybe not every gory detail, all at once, but slowly and gradually. It is a part of you.<P>I do not completely understand what it is like to be you. Clearly this has torn you up inside. But you don't completely understand what it is like to be me, either, and you never will if I don't open up and share with you. Did it ever occur to you that on MY side, I also carry around some guilt? Did it ever occur to you that on MY side, I also feel like this will never, EVER be over? What kind of b*tch was I to drive him to another? Okay, so demons are demons are demons. We ALL have them. We have ALL made horrible mistakes that we deeply regret. And I can't speak for you, but when I feel close enough to someone to call them intimate, it is not just "curiosity" to want to know about them.<P>I do completely understand why you don't trust--us or anyone else for that matter--but therein lies the rub. If someone is going to be intimately close to you, eventually the day will come when you will need to trust them. You will need to stick out your neck and risk. I can only say that if I were to meet a wonderful man, and we were becoming close and intimate, and I were to discover that he had had an affair, my response would not be judgemental. It would be more like, "Wow, that must have been so painful for you. I am so glad that you were willing to share that with me." It's quite a compliment when someone is willing to share something painful, and it's a responsibility that I personally feel should not be taken lightly.<P>In the meantime, TS, take a breath! This is not a matter of "living down what you did". I can't honestly say that I would even consider that a defining characteristic of you personality here on the forum, and we know! I have always thought your character was much, MUCH more defined by thought provoking comments, sometimes morally challenging ideas, and always interesting discussion. THAT is who I think you are. <P>So...will you take a breath, please? Thanks.<P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Bystander,<P>"I make no apologies in defense of honesty, TS."<P>I'm not asking you to apologize, but I still believe that your opinion is not based on some "lofty" goal of "honesty". It is based on having information so that you get to judge another person. Sorry. If your need know is that strong, then I have to believe your intentions are not benevolent.<P>"Why do you continue to refer to your future husband as "clueless?" <P>Because he was not there. The only people who were "there" are me and my ex and that is where its gonna stay. Psychically damaging information in the hands of a rank amateur, even with the best of intentions, is very dangerous. Not going there.<P>"Which brings us full circle to the large seed of doubt."<P>Yep. And I've learned (as I said before) that people make up their own stories no matter what you tell them. They don't need my help, that is for sure.<P>"TS, you have repeatedly claimed that you don't care what others think. In practically the same breath you say that you're not<BR>going to disclose anything to anyone, especially a potential spouse. If you really don't care what anyone else thinks, then you<BR>wouldn't mind disclosing your past. The fact is, you care deeply what others think, and you are very worried about how others will react to your past. This is called other-validation."<P>EVERYBODY is other-validated to a certain degree. People left in solitary-confinement usually go crazy after a certain length of time, for instance. I understand the nature of abuse much better than you probably ever will, unfortunately. Telling someone about my past is the WORST form of other-validating. I have no need for their blessing. What I do need is piece of mind, which I won't get by spilling my guts. <P>Confessing to my exH was really one of the most pointless things I ever did, in the big scheme of things. It has done nothing to "speed" my recovery or self-forgiveness. Actually, it pushed me way,way back. Feeling bad about something is not the same as never having done it. I suppose it makes me look "better" to outsiders, but it did not save my marriage. So really, it was a waste of time.<P>"You can escape it by self-validating, by taking pride in overcoming difficult periods in your life, and sharing those victories with your partner."<P>Nope. I'm not buying it. Like I said before, noone gets a medal for experiencing the most pain in life. There is no prize for struggling. People only care what the final outcome is.<P>

As each of us is the sum total of our experiences in life, to bury that of which we are ashamed is to deny an integral part of ourselves. To make a decision to never disclose something - anything - to someone you are considering sharing the rest of your life with will not protect you from being hurt again. It will instead undermine the foundation of that relationship and thus quite probably set it up for failure.<P>TS, it's not about how much you make yourself suffer to "pay" for your "transgression". No amount of penance is going to earn your ex's forgiveness - or yours. And I really think that's what it's all about: <I>you need to forgive yourself.</I> After that, you need to forgive your ex. Only when you have truly accomplished that - let go of the hurt and anger and bitterness - will you be able to trust another enough to have the kind of relationship that you (we all!) want.<P>------------------<BR>Bobbie

<BR>TS,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm not asking you to apologize, but I still believe that your opinion is not based on some "lofty" goal of "honesty". It is based on having information so that you get to judge another person. Sorry. If your need know is that strong, then I have to believe your intentions are not benevolent.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>TS, the power of others' judgments resides in how they impact your self-perception. In your case, those judgments are very powerful indeed right now. But remember, YOU are the one empowering others to impact your self-perception. Honesty per se requires no apology, and shooting the messenger won't change that.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"Why do you continue to refer to your future husband as "clueless?" Because he was not there. The only people who were "there" are me and my ex and that is where its gonna stay. Psychically damaging information in the hands of a rank amateur, even with the best of intentions, is very dangerous. Not going there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The solipsism gambit won't work because your past is part of who you are now. While you can always deny your history, you can't really undo it, for the very reason that you can't be someone you are not. And a future husband who would be proud of your recovery from all that your exH did isn't a "rank amateur" but rather a loving spouse.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Telling someone about my past is the WORST form of other-validating.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You're right! Its a terrible form of other-validating. Which is why I've been saying that when you're ready to self-validate you will WANT to tell your future husband.<P>CJ's described it pretty succintly. Your past is who you are. You can't change it, but you can share it, and someone who loves you will want to know everything about you. Not to hurt you with the information, but to really know you. You don't believe me, but its true. There are men out there who would see you as very marriageable, who would see you as someone they would love to be in a relationship with. And if they knew of your past, they would feel even more attracted to you. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Confessing to my exH was really one of the most pointless things I ever did, in the big scheme of things. It has done nothing to "speed" my recovery or self-forgiveness. Actually, it pushed me way,way back. Feeling bad about something is not the same as never having done it. I suppose it makes me look "better" to outsiders, but it did not save my marriage. So really, it was a waste of time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Its painful for me to see how hurt and bitter you are right now. You've taken the reprehensible actions of your exH and you are generalizing them to every potential partner you will ever have. CJ is right - real intimacy involves sticking your neck out. I don't think every person you ever meet needs to know of your past...but your future husband does. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Nope. I'm not buying it. Like I said before, noone gets a medal for experiencing the most pain in life. There is no prize for struggling. People only care what the final outcome is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Which begs the question, what's the final outcome? Do you really think you can have a fulfilling relationship on the terms you would like to dictate? I don't think you can, and in time I'm certain you'll agree with me.<P>Bystander

I do not agree that TS is anyway punishing herself. I do not understand how many come to that conclusion. She's merely not ready to be involved with someone else and she's trying to focus on her education and future career goals without the distraction of a relationship. Nor do I believe she is bitter. <P>I think she has been hurt yes, but is working on self healing. And if her way of healing is to be celibate and free of a sexual relationship, my encouragement to her. I do not think she is being dishonest by not wanting to discuss her past to a potential partner. If she gets into another relationship, her and that individual is beginning a new life together and they should be building history not digging for her old history. To each his own and it is clear to me if that if TS could leave her past in her past, she would be much happier in another relationship say 3-8 years from now. Total honesty is the best thing for a relationship. Bringing up a old relationship into a new one, is just not necessary. Maybe for some it is, but for TS it's not. And her future soul mate will feel the same. If he doesn't, he's not the person for her.<P>Just my opinion. Fogive me TS if I said something that isn't how you feel.<BR><P>------------------<BR><B>Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

<BR>jamie-lee writes:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Total honesty is the best thing for a relationship. Bringing up a old relationship into a new one, is just not necessary. Maybe for some it is, but for TS it's not. And her future soul mate will feel the same. If he doesn't, he's not the person for her.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Simply put, TS is defining the parameters of her next relationship to protect herself from a repeat of the abuse of her exH. This is a defensive tactic that nominally provides some psychological protection, but at what cost?<P>Can she ever have a really fulfilling relationship in a "no questions asked" marriage? Whether she can find someone willing to live within those parameters is not the issue - its whether a fulfilling marriage is even possible. I just don't think such a marriage would work in the long run. You can't hide who you are, and our past is a part of us.<P>Bystander

Jamie-Lee,<P>"To each his own and it is clear to me if that if TS could leave her past in her past, she would be much happier in another relationship say 3-8 years from now. Total honesty is the best thing for a relationship. Bringing up a old relationship into a new one, is just not necessary. Maybe for some it is, but for TS it's not. And her future soul mate will feel the same. If he doesn't, he's<BR>not the person for her."<P>I completely agree. I agree about total honesty concerning present and future though.<P>Bystander,<BR>I do apologize about "shooting the messenger". I think where we disagree is that you honestly believe that divulging my past will make me feel closer to another person, whereas, in my experience, it has done just the opposite. I do not feel closer at all. I have told people about my marriage, both guy and girlfriends. Lots of people here too. I can tell you without a doubt that I absolutely do not feel more "intimate" as a result. <P>Harley believes the same thing. He believes that being able to discuss your past, and be accepted for it is this wonderful thing and that it brings people closer together. Maybe about alot of things, but not this. Not for me. My preferred method of avoiding relationships with men, as a matter of fact, IS to spill my guts about my past because then I stop having any attraction to them at all. You'd think it would have the opposite effect, but it doesn't. Sad for them, but really nothing they say about how much they respect me has any impact when it concerns my infidelity. Obviously it hasn't had much impact here. <P>I understand that a loving person would want to try and "help" me in this area, but really, there is nothing they can do. So the risks of telling someone greatly outweigh the positives. I see no positives in telling. It doesn't make me feel closer, there is nothing they can do about it, and I open myself up to having them throw it in my face later. <P>I'm not suggesting a "no questions asked" marriage. Yes I was married twice. Yes, both were messy and very painful. Yes, we both made mistakes but neither husband felt like trying anymore. We split our property amicably without lawyers. No, I don't speak to them anymore. I mean, what else does someone else need to know? Oh sure, I suppose I could bore them with my "poor me" stories, but puleeze. How old is that?<P>Still, I think you are basing your idea of a fulfilling marriage on what you want or what makes you feel good. It does not make me feel good for someone to know about my past. It does not make me feel closer, it does not make me feel more "loved", it does not make me feel more fulfilled. What it does is make me feel is inferior, it makes me feel distant, it makes me feel like I'd forever be having to prove to THEM that I'm not going to cheat on them. <P>You say I can't hide who I "am". The fact that I cheated once IS NOT ME, not anymore. If I tell them, then what I'm saying is this IS me. I'm telling them "Please, forget every wonderful thing you've seen in me now and remember always that, really, I'm just an adulterer under all of this. Really, I'm not so great. I'd probably screw your best friend if I had the opportunity cause that is who I *am*. Honest, I felt bad about cheating,really. My mean old husband was just awful to me. Boo. Hoo. Do you feel sorry for me now? Oh yes, please give me a hug cause my life has just been sooooo awful. Poor me. And my first husband, oh my. He had sex with sooo many women. And I was just too wonderful, was just so faithful. Oh yes, give me another hug cause my life has been SUCH a struggle. boo. hoo."<P>Barf. gag. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited November 01, 2000).]

Faithful Wife,<P>I do know what it is like to be in your shoes. My first H cheated on me non-stop. Starting the day after we were married. Over 20 different women (to the best of his recollection). I told my second H all of this, and before it was all said and done, he was convinced that I had cheated on my first H. That the "20 women" thing was just a fabrication. <P>I WAS confident when I met him. It took 8 yrs to break me down, but he did eventually. And you know, it was me who handed him the tools of my "destruction". Won't happen again.<P>Patient,<BR>"As each of us is the sum total of our experiences in life, to bury that of which we are ashamed is to deny an integral part of ourselves."<BR>Oh well. I release feces from my body everyday (to put it in a nice way ), but I don't feel the need to stick my hands in it and rub it around on my face. That stuff is an "integral" part of me too. I'm not trying to be flippant. What I'm saying is that the lesson has been learned. That was the goal. To disclose this information to someone new is the same as digging the cr*p out of the toilet and making a necklace out of it to wear every day for the rest of my life. Pee-yu.<P>"To make a decision to never disclose something - anything - to someone you are<BR>considering sharing the rest of your life with will not protect you from being hurt again." <P>You are right. I'm sure they'll find some interesting, new, novel way to hurt me. At least it won't be in THIS way again. <P>"It will instead undermine the foundation of that relationship and thus quite probably set it up for failure." <P>Well, I've tried the total honesty thing in the past. Didn't work for me. They say that the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. If I fail in the future, it is because I will have found new ways to screw up!! <BR>

<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Well, I've tried the total honesty thing in the past. Didn't work for me. They say that the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. If I fail in the future, it is because I will have found new ways to screw up!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not a psychologist, however, I have studied more than a little bit about psychology. This definition refers to doing the same thing repeatedly in the <B>same circumstances</B> and expecting different results. You are comparing apples to strawberries here - both are fruit but one grows in a tree and one grows on the ground... I do understand that you are very afraid, after having been through two such terrible marriages, that it will happen to you a third time. Perhaps what you need to find out is why you were drawn to two such abusive individuals so that you will not choose to be with another abusive individual in the future. BOTH of your ex's were abusive men - your second moreseo than your first. Honesty is not what destroyed your marriages... I firmly believe, based on what you have shared with us, that your second marriage would have failed EVEN IF YOU HAD NEVER CHEATED ON HIM! My "instinct" is that he used your honesty as an excuse to abuse you both before your affair and after it. That is not a failing of "honesty" - that is a man with a terrible character flaw! Bottom line, to me, is that if you find what it was that drew you to two different abusers, you will have enabled yourself to avoid another abuser - in which case, between that and what you have learned here about relationships, you have made the circumstances different, and therefore, it is NOT insanity to try honesty again.<P>There is some division between marriage therapists as to whether or not honesty is indeed the best policy - but I say look at the success records of all of the therapists and you will see that the most successful ones are the ones who advocate honesty. That does not mean that at the first "I love you" you should blurt out your entire marital past, but I agree with Bystander that if you have truly recovered and found peace within yourself, you will WANT that person to know what molded you - you will be proud of where you have come from.<P>One more thing: Your ex can NEVER redeem you. That is something only YOU can do. You are allowing things that happened to you to define you completely - you are not truly recovering - you are not letting go ... you are burying. While continuously reliving something really is not the way to heal, neither is putting it away never to be seen again...<P>I will not apologize for believing that honesty is the best approach, either - you asked for opinions, and you got them. I have done this myself. Matter of fact, I was very upset over at GQII a day or two ago with a post I made where I asked for opinions. I didn't really much like them when I got them, but reflection has made me see that perhaps these people are right in some ways - I have rethought my position and, while I am still frustrated that some people seem want me to lay down and let the divorce train run me over, I see the logic in some of what they are telling me. Perhaps I am TOO CLOSE to see that my feelings are obscuring my view of the situation.<P>Well, I am posting this from work and I am an hour late in leaving... so I will close and go home.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Terri,<P>"Bottom line, to me, is that if you find what<BR>it was that drew you to two different abusers, you will have enabled yourself to avoid another abuser."<P>Believing that I could "love" them into treating me better or that they could "fix" things that were hurting me.<P>What I've learned is that "honesty" with a significant other does not exempt you from personal responsibility. Both of my ex's were honest with me, yet they still kept doing whatever they were doing. Being "honest" about it does not change a damn thing. <P>I really don't care what someone did before they met me, especially if it was something that happened a long,long time ago. My only barometer is how they treat me today. If they treat me well, then I figure they learned whatever lesson they were supposed to learn. If they have a character flaw, I can't fix it for them, and telling me about it certainly won't fix it for them.<P>I think all of us draw the line in a different place when it comes to total honesty. <P>You are probably right about my second marriage being doomed to failure. My previous attempts at being honest with him were fruitless, so it was stupid of me to believe that confessing to something like an affair would have any impact on him. My conclusion is that I should not have confessed then. All I did was open myself up to more abuse. If I had it to do over again, I would have just divorced him without confessing. <P>I've observed that there is still a double standard concerning a woman's past. I can gripe about it all day. I can throw myself into relationship after relationship in a naive attempt to prove it does not exist. But it does exist. I'm pretty sick of "blazing trails". I do enough of that in my job. <P>People like Harley who (I believe) are not well versed in the dynamics of abuse tend to discount the long term affects of abuse. I say it would have been INFINITELY better for my mental health to not confess. He is so religious about total honesty, that he is willing to let people martyr themselves over it. So are some people here. This is the "Divorce" board. If total honesty worked for all you folks, you wouldn't be here. <P>I think personal responsibility is much more important than total honesty. If I, and only I, am accountable for my actions, then telling someone about them in an attempt for "acceptance" is completely unnecessary. I don't expect my significant other to be my babysitter. <P>As far as being "proud" of what I've overcome...With very few exceptions, I am the one who put myself into every one of these situations. I have NOTHING to be proud of. I am not proud that I married two abusive men. So what I "overcame" it, or am overcoming it? It is my fault that I was even IN those situations. Why would I want to BRAG about that? Again, telling a significant other about it is not going to teach me anything I don't already know. I don't need their sympathy or to have them throw a party for me because I overcame SOMETHING OF MY OWN MAKING. Now, if I was *truly* a victim, well, maybe then I might want some sympathy. That is not true in these cases. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited November 02, 2000).]

Dear TS<P>Life is a learning curve for you, and you belabour every point to ensure that your future holds little of the hurts and pain that you had experienced in your past relationships. <P>While it is very attractive for a few to know that you have developed into a matured, caring, empathetic person after the affair, many would wonder how they can protect themselves and have an affair proof marriage with you. I was divorced from the first husband who was an abused orphan who was abusive as well as wayward. My current H is wayward. I believe (now that I am still in anguish) that I would never marry a man who is adulterous, and yes, I would want to 'dig' because I need to know whether he was unfaithful (if he was divorced and now single), and most importantly, to know if affairs had 'frightened and changed him to become totally committed to an affair-proof marriage'. Because, like you, I believe that I would be wasting my life if a marriage is basically a transit LOVE stop.<P>I think that you are fortunate in having a phenomenal capacity to work through every ounce of pain and possible scenarios for hurt. You also have a full life doing things that you are more or less in control of. I often wonder how life would have been so much less hurtful had I gone on to do my doctorate instead of settling for the masters and marrying my second husband. But then, I believe that after the doctorate, I would still get married to someone because we are all made to look for human companionship. <P>Your actions are as unpredictable as the next guy you are going to meet. You cannot get into his mind to see what he is doing. It is OURSELVES that we have to work at and become the potential wonderful being that we are capable of. The horrid actions of others would impact and set us back for some time, but the one who lead the victorious life is the one who rises from the ashes time and again, hurt after hurt, to complete the race with dignity and head held high. We cannot control the unpredictable actions of others. We can only control our own actions (which would include dating a REAL godly man).<P>If you feel that you do not need to know, for example, about why the man you are going to be seriously involved with was twice divorced, then you will be comfortable to keep your past to yourself. But I believe that the best way to have a fresh start to a marriage is to commit the marriage and each other to God, and to undergo intensive marriage counselling that will detail the highlights, plateaus, pitfalls in a relationship. The two of you will be able to discuss indepth the issues that are critical in ensuring an affair and abuse proof marriage. Short of opening up your fears and expectations and needs to each other, a true bonding of your souls cannot happen. Why settle for second best?<P>God bless and loves you<BR>weep<P>

Weep,<P>"If you feel that you do not need to know, for example, about why the man you are going to be seriously involved with was twice divorced..."<P>Actually, if it were in my power, I would not admit to being married twice. I still may not. I wouldn't want a man who was married twice, and wouldn't want a man who had cheated. Yep, call me a hypocrite. I've met maybe one or two men in my entire life (my dad is one of them) who could ever really take responsibility for their contribution to the problems in a relationship. There are many,many more women who have the capacity and the will to look at themselves. The vast majority of women on this board attest to that. The vast majority of women who buy self-help books and go to therapy is also another big indicator. <P>The more I think about it, the more I think that maybe I'm just having this conversation with myself for "fun". <P>I just have to admit to myself that my time for having a sexual or marital type relationship is now over. That is just the way it is. <P>Thanks for having this conversation with me. There are some days I entertain this little fantasy that I can make a fresh start some day. I don't know, maybe someday when I'm like 50 or 60....Talking to all of you makes me realize that it is just that...a fantasy. <P>"I believe (now that I am still in anguish)<BR>that I would never marry a man who is adulterous, and yes, I would want to 'dig' because I need to know whether he was unfaithful (if he was divorced and now single), and most importantly, to know if<BR>affairs had 'frightened and changed him to become totally committed to an affair-proof marriage'.Because, like you, I believe that I would be wasting my life if a marriage is basically a transit LOVE stop."<P>Nothing he "tells" you will guarantee anything. He could tell you that he was faithful, when he wasn't. He could "tell" you all kinds of things. My first H cheated on me. Didn't stop me from cheating on my second. My second H, supposedly, did not cheat on me. But he did me more damage than my first ever did. Scary huh? Focus on yourself. That is all you really have control over. <P>I read my own words and realize how utterly stupid it would be for me to get married again. I should not have gotten married the first TWO times. There is no way I will bind myself to another person in that way again. Nothing I experienced with either one of them was worth the pain of these divorces. Nothing. I have to force myself to remember that sometimes. Coming here helps me remember that. <P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited November 02, 2000).]

<BR>TS writes:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Thanks for having this conversation with me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You are welcome!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>There are some days I entertain this little fantasy that I can make a fresh start some day. I don't know, maybe someday when I'm like 50 or 60....Talking to all of you makes me realize that it is just that...a fantasy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Once your self-esteem recovers, it won't seem like such a fantasy anymore. And when you meet the right guy, your fresh start will happen.<P>Bystander

Hi TS,<P>Wow, you started a real barn burner here! I've been lurking in the shadows for three days reading the thread. <P>Once again I'm surprised by your choice of terms, "statute of limitations". Doesn't that refer to a time limitation during which a specific legal action can be taken?<P>Other than that, I have to side with you and JL on this one. You are under no moral, ethical or legal obligation to disclose your sex history to anyone. There could concievably be a practical reason for disclosure if you intended to introduce him to friends or to a social circle where the information was known. (Wouldn't want him to hear it from someone else.) But if you connect with someone you can share your life with, I suspect you will find it easy to drift away from those who think they know all about the things you want to leave behind you.<P>In your post of November 2, you made an excellent observation, that you are going to be concerned with how a person treats you, not the experiences of the past. Pretty safe bet that is the way most people think. The day your divorce became final was the day that any indescretion during the marriage lost its significance. The fact that one made a mistake in the past doesn't obligate one to repeat it in the future. If one learns something from the experience, fine, but go on living with it? B.S.! <P>Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future. Morally, there probably isn't ten cents worth of difference among any of us. If you find some person who insists on digging into anything you have put behind you, let that be your first clue you are dealing with another abuser. Don't let it screw up your whole weekend, just get away from him!<P>If there is a part of this thread that I find disturbing, it is the reference to the past and the projection into the future. Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery. It is OK to enjoy today for what it has to offer. Little piece of ghetto wisdom: "If you have one foot set in yesterday, and one foot set in tomorrow, you may be p-----g all over today." <P>This is a great thread. Lot of deep thought and feeling provoked in this one.<P>Bumper<P>

<BR>Bumper writes:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You are under no moral, ethical or legal obligation to disclose your sex history to anyone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So you support the idea that a man needn't reveal his five convictions for child molesting to his current fiancee?<P>And if you married such a man and later found out about his past, would you feel violated? What would you say if he told you, "I was never under any moral, ethical or legal obligation to disclose my sex history to you."<P>I think there is a moral obligation to fully disclose the past, at least if the partner makes an inquiry prior to marriage. While some people don't care about the past, some (probably most, IMO) do care about the past. And when the ask the question, they deserve the truth.<P>Bystander

When I mentioned "dig" for information,I meant I would go check out the registries about whether the person was married before, was divorced on what grounds, etc.. I wouldn't want to commit to someone who had a closet full of skeletons. I read that some guy actually married a transexual and in another report (non tabloid) some lady actually married a transexual, too. I would casually ask the person to double-check for honesty.<P>I don't think 'dig' is abusive. Abusive is when you threaten the information out of the other person or use the information to torment the other person.<P>I wouldn't have thought of doing any such 'digging' before. But knowing how painful horrible marriages can be and traumatising divorces are, it is better to be safe than burnt again, Sure there are no guarantees about future behaviour, but if you can't have some decent basics, such as how many times were you married, etc., than the relationship was built on nothing. <P>I don't think only ten cents separate me from Mother Theresa. I think a lot separate some from others. But it is true that all are sinners. It is also true that the repentant are recognised, the nonrepentant not.<P>Do I feel proud that I am twice married? Who would be even if my H were WS? But no one can take that part of the history away from me; its pain and how I rebuilt myself are a part of who I will become. To some, I would seem like someone they wouldn't bring home to mother but to a few, they may see me as someone who have lived and loved and learned.<P>At the end of the day, I am glad I had married than not at all. I wouldn't want to live to a ripe old age and not have been married before. My choices were poor but my life needn't be. <P>

<BR>Weep!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But no one can take that part of the history away from me; its pain and how I rebuilt myself are a part of who I will become. To some, I would seem like someone they wouldn't bring home to mother but to a few, they may see me as someone who have lived and loved and learned.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>YES, YES, YESSSSSS!!! You've got the key to your future! <P>Bystander

I edited out the last thing I wrote because I was pretty angry when I wrote it.<P>Reading everything you all have said makes me very sad. Almost without exception, all of you believe that this is something I can never put behind me. Almost without exception, all of you believe that I'm supposed to carry this with me the rest of my life, not only in my own memory and my ex husband's, which is bad enough, but I have to plant this evil seed of condemnation and suspicion with every new person I meet too. Isn't that your REAL goal in knowing? So that you can pat yourself on the back for being faithful? So you can make the person in your new relationship suffer for all the things your ex didn't stick around to take? So you can work out your anger on them? Of course, you're too good for that...You only have the best of intentions. I don't believe it for one second.<P>None of you realizes how utterly hopeless this makes me feel. None of you realize how destructive this belief of yours truly is. I suppose that is not your concern. As long as YOU never cheat, you have nothing to worry about. Good for you.<P>If I didn't truly believe that I'd go to hell for killing myself and hurting my family, I would, if this is the way most people feel. I'm condemned to lie, condemned to face the perpetual and never ending judgement from people like most of you, or condemned to live alone. There is really nothing else I have to say. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited November 02, 2000).]